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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/21/2015 3:42:46 PM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/6/2012
Status: offline 		Yep...every one of mine has had a punishment dynamic. That said, by far the WORST things ever dished up were - 1) my first master punished me for doing something (can't remember) made me stand in a corner and NOT talk. Was to be for 10 mins. I am NOT good at keeping quiet and he tacked an additional 10 mins on every time I made a sound. I was in that corner for 40 minutes.

Got smart and made "TMIK quiet time" a hard limit (along with peas) Next master (Malcolm) used "bad girl" which just about slays me.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/22/2015 6:16:37 AM   
NookieNotes


Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
Status: offline 		Thank you for answering. You gave me a lot of insight. *smiles*

I'm digesting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

I get that others might have no interest in a punishment dynamic, but it's irritating when they suggest that there's something childish or dysfunctional about such a dynamic.


I hope I've never given you that impression.


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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/22/2015 7:09:57 AM   
satanscharmer


Posts: 376
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

I get that others might have no interest in a punishment dynamic, but it's irritating when they suggest that there's something childish or dysfunctional about such a dynamic.




I originally felt the same when I first read replies like this in other punishment-related threads.

In my response to this thread, I included:

quote:

ORIGINAL: satanscharmer
I've seen other dynamics that include taking things away. I couldn't do that. I don't want to feel like a child and that's how it would make me feel.


Because it's true for me. We have kids, this is a type of punishment we dole out to them and having the same type of punishment for myself would trigger something in me, feeling as though I'm a child. They are personal feelings I have toward this type of punishment. Doesn't mean I will consider you or your dynamic childish. It just triggers something in my mind and it doesn't work for me. I would feel childish.

Same thing with calling my partner "Daddy". I don't view anything wrong with others using it, nor do I believe it implies incestuous thoughts, I just *personally* can't use it. I still call my father this so it doesn't work for me.

I've realized that while others may view punishments in a whole as childish, that is their opinion. There is nothing wrong with them having an opinion or feeling a certain way towards something, or having a trigger (like me) that makes it difficult to think otherwise. Just like there is nothing wrong with someone else being for punishments in their relationship who view nothing about them as childish.

If someone states they want to date an adult and wish to communicate in lieu of using punishments, I'm assuming it is because that falls under their definition of an adult relationship and what they're looking for. Not meant as a judgement towards others, not stating others are childish for doing so - it's just how they feel *personally* in that type of dynamic. Obviously I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but this is how I choose to view it - makes me feel less judged. I like to keep my rose-colored glasses on.

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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/22/2015 7:12:23 AM   
ExiledTyrant


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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/22/2015 7:43:18 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
I'm never scared of funishment and I have no reason to avoid it. Bring on the spankings!

Speaking from a view that I am not a big fan of any punishment dynamic because I see punishment as hate and not love. And also being treated as a child and not a full grown mature woman.

But I do not understand why would you want to be scared of anything your dom will do to you.

I do not like punishment dynamic because I want to love and respect him, and not fear him.

If his punishing me, his intentionally doing something to me that will cause me distress. That's so horrible. His longer my protector, he becomes my abuser, a genuine one. And if I fear him, I will run away from him.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/22/2015 7:45:59 AM >

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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/22/2015 8:05:32 AM   
TieMeInKnottss


Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/6/2012
Status: offline 		"I get that others might have no interest in a punishment dynamic, but it's irritating when they suggest that there's something childish or dysfunctional about such a dynamic. Someone on here stated that they wanted a responsible adult in their life, as though I don't hold down a job, pay my bills, look after family and friends and meet my responsibilities like anyone else. It has nothing to do with immaturity, and everything to do with being a sadomasochist and a submissive, with having an element in my relationships of control and suffering that is as close to genuine, whilst still being safe, sane and consensual, as anything I can muster. At the same time, people get all kinds of confused about the fact that I say I like having a punishment dynamic 'if it was real punishment, you wouldn't like it' - rest assured, I don't like it whilst it's happening, and I'll seek to avoid it in the future, but the very fact that it's there to be avoided IS something that I like about it. I like knowing that there's a line in the sand that cannot be crossed and, if it is crossed, I'll regret it. I work well within boundaries (this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who understands submission in general) and I like knowing that rules have a sanction. I'm not a brat, and I almost never deliberately break rules but if someone gave me rules and then didn't enforce them, I'd get bored. Whereas if I know there's a sanction, I feel safe, I feel loved, I feel like he is genuinely engaged in my submission and working to maintain it

I guess the closest explanation I can give is that I like living in a society where there is a punishment dynamic. I like knowing that if I fuck up and get something really wrong, there'll be a punishment for it. It doesn't mean I like punishments, it doesn't mean I intend to fuck up, it just means I like there being a clear and consistent system of sanctions that is applicable to me. I'm absolutely certain that most people prefer to live in a society with sanctions, and we should fully accept that many people in BDSM prefer rules, control and boundaries, so why the confusion over punishment I'm not sure..."



Finally, someone who "gets it". Just because I prefer structure, knowing exactly where the lines are and what happens if I cross them does NOT make me any less of a responsible adult than someone that prefers "free range". How well do you think our military or country would run if there were no consequences for breaking rules?

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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/22/2015 10:30:54 AM   
orgasmdenial12


Posts: 613
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
I see punishment as hate and not love.


Each to their own opinion, and yet, I am sure many vanilla people see BDSM as hate, and not love. Yet we know different, right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
And also being treated as a child and not a full grown mature woman.


I am sure you understand that many vanilla people see 'rules' and permission as being treated like a child and not a full grown woman and yet, we know different, right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
But I do not understand why would you want to be scared of anything your dom will do to you.


Because some people find fear to be useful or exciting, for example, sadomasochists.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
I do not like punishment dynamic because I want to love and respect him, and not fear him.


I am not sure I could love, desire or respect someone that I did not, on some level, fear. It's like the fear holds a little kernel of excitement and truth for me, that I wouldn't feel if I didn't fear him. Even when we are doing something completely vanilla, like making love, to look at him and remember that little flicker of fear that I have for what he might do to me, and the respect I feel for him because of that, makes it completely exciting and overwhelming. I'm not sure I could feel the same way for someone I didn't fear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
If his punishing me, his intentionally doing something to me that will cause me distress. That's so horrible. His longer my protector, he becomes my abuser, a genuine one. And if I fear him, I will run away from him.


You realise that much s&m play intentionally causes distress, not just punishment play? I am not looking for a protector, I am looking for a sadist. It's not abuse when it's safe, sane and consensual.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/22/2015 10:56:00 AM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		Even in my little play I didn't use punishment.

I never like to feel like he is talking down to me, unless its in a playful way/roleplaying way. I feel, for me, a punishment dynamic feels like I'm being talked down to/treated dumber than him- because it suggests (to ME, and I experience it like) I'm not responsible enough to answer to myself. If HE messes up its enough for him to beat himself up, but for me its not? Thats why it feels "childish" to me.

I mean, but I'm not really "a submissive"- so clearly that mindset doesn't resonate with me. If it works for someone else and they don't feel childish engaging in it, or feel they need it- more power to you. But I mean no personal offense when I talk about how I experience it.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/22/2015 12:00:29 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


Do you use punishment in your dynamic? Why/why not?


Yes. It's just another tool and if it's the right tool for a particular job it would be utilized in my Universe. I really don't want to
have to tie my own hands to possibilities.




quote:

What about funishment? How do you see the difference?


One makes me wigglegiggle and the other makes me think which is harder to do when I wigglegiggle. So, final answer for me
is a different mindset. Personally, I think that 'pun' was enough in punishment but whatever floats your boat! Fun is not a limit!

quote:

If you do use punishment, what punishment(s) have been particularly effective for YOU, and why?


The ones in which I remember the lesson and forget the punishment otherwise it has been an exercise in futility as I repeat
mistakes from lessons I've failed to learn.

quote:

What punishments didn't work for you and why?


If the punishment didn't fit the crime then it probably didn't work.

quote:

Have you ever seen or heard of a punishment that you thought was interesting that you can share?

What other views on punishment do you have to share?

Thanks, ya'll! *smiles*


I will put more thought into these two questions. I may be back if I have something worthwhile to add.


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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/22/2015 2:08:42 PM   
Kaliko


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Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

Amusingly, Doms who don't fully understand me would sometimes try to deny me orgasms as a punishment; this is not ever going to work, except to reward bad behaviour lol.



I completely understand. :)



quote:



At the same time, people get all kinds of confused about the fact that I say I like having a punishment dynamic 'if it was real punishment, you wouldn't like it' - rest assured, I don't like it whilst it's happening, and I'll seek to avoid it in the future, but the very fact that it's there to be avoided IS something that I like about it. I like knowing that there's a line in the sand that cannot be crossed and, if it is crossed, I'll regret it. I work well within boundaries (this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who understands submission in general) and I like knowing that rules have a sanction. I'm not a brat, and I almost never deliberately break rules but if someone gave me rules and then didn't enforce them, I'd get bored. Whereas if I know there's a sanction, I feel safe, I feel loved, I feel like he is genuinely engaged in my submission and working to maintain it.



So well said.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


What about funishment? How do you see the difference?




Hmm. I'm trying to think of a time when we engaged in funishment. Funishment seems like role playing to me. And I. Hate. Role playing. It's a huge, huge turnoff for me. Either I fucked up or I didn't.



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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/23/2015 2:10:58 AM   
NookieNotes


Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


What about funishment? How do you see the difference?




Hmm. I'm trying to think of a time when we engaged in funishment. Funishment seems like role playing to me. And I. Hate. Role playing. It's a huge, huge turnoff for me. Either I fucked up or I didn't.


*smiles* Yeah, I get that. My logical brain used to hate going into role play. Now, I enjoy it. For example, this event:

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
As far as my dynamic, it is not a punishment dynamic. It is all about communication. Today. there will be funishment. His hair got a bit long between cuts, and he and his stylist colluded to give him a cut too short for me to grab when I need to (ahem...). He'll get spanked for me. It will hurt. He'll enjoy it. He'll also know I'm disappointed, but not disappointed enough to have "a talk" with him about it.


Played out quite nicely. He loves to be spanked. SOOO, I spanked him for having his hair cut too short. And I did it good. I took time and put effort in.

Then, after, I told him that next time, if he DIDN'T get his hair cut too short, I would spank him like that and then peg him after, while his bum was still tender.

We got to play with funishment, but I also made a point about what he loves, and tied it into him doing what I love—namely, keeping his hair long enough for me to grab.

*smiles*


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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/23/2015 5:17:02 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
Each to their own opinion, and yet, I am sure many vanilla people see BDSM as hate, and not love. Yet we know different, right?

BDSM is just an action. The message and intent behind the action is another story. Even in vanilla life, I never see punishment as love, even from parent to child.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
I am sure you understand that many vanilla people see 'rules' and permission as being treated like a child and not a full grown woman and yet, we know different, right?

Actually, I do see it as people having the fetish of being treated as a child. They enjoy it.

quote:


I am not sure I could love, desire or respect someone that I did not, on some level, fear. It's like the fear holds a little kernel of excitement and truth for me, that I wouldn't feel if I didn't fear him. Even when we are doing something completely vanilla, like making love, to look at him and remember that little flicker of fear that I have for what he might do to me, and the respect I feel for him because of that, makes it completely exciting and overwhelming. I'm not sure I could feel the same way for someone I didn't fear.

This is something I will never understand ever. I can't associate fear with love at all. If I fear someone, I will never go near him or want him in my life. I need to feel safe with him.

quote:


You realise that much s&m play intentionally causes distress, not just punishment play? I am not looking for a protector, I am looking for a sadist. It's not abuse when it's safe, sane and consensual.

Yes this part is melting my brain a little. Looking to be with someone you feel constant fear and anxiety from. I never saw this as part of BDSM. I never associated Fear or distress with BDSM, I associate that with real abuse. I always saw it as utter trust in someone to be into bdsm, you trust him so much that you allow him to do all that seemingly "nasty" and "dangerous" and "painful" things. But never fear. As the only reason why you trust him to do all that to you is because you know deep down he will never truly hurt you.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/23/2015 5:19:16 AM >

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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/23/2015 6:18:45 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		I only like punishment as part of play, so if it's role playing, I guess I need to call it funishment.

I totally understand the various points of view here regarding this topic.

Not being a masochist, I do not want to truly fear my partner, ever.

When I started genuinely fearing my ex during play, I knew that was the end.

He took a fun dynamic that we had established and ruined it by letting his anger and selfishness turn into real punishment, thus betraying my trust in him, even just for play.

I think like everything else we do, trust is essential.

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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/23/2015 7:18:34 AM   
NookieNotes


Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
He took a fun dynamic that we had established and ruined it by letting his anger and selfishness turn into real punishment, thus betraying my trust in him, even just for play.

I think like everything else we do, trust is essential.


I think this is key to many people. I try to never punish or even have discussions when I am really angry and not in control of myself. That leads to not-good things.

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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/23/2015 7:57:26 AM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:


I am not sure I could love, desire or respect someone that I did not, on some level, fear. It's like the fear holds a little kernel of excitement and truth for me, that I wouldn't feel if I didn't fear him. Even when we are doing something completely vanilla, like making love, to look at him and remember that little flicker of fear that I have for what he might do to me, and the respect I feel for him because of that, makes it completely exciting and overwhelming. I'm not sure I could feel the same way for someone I didn't fear.


This is something I will never understand ever. I can't associate fear with love at all. If I fear someone, I will never go near him or want him in my life. I need to feel safe with him.



Greta, here is how what orgasmdenial12 wrote resonates with me (which is probably different than her intention, but still) - and maybe this will help explain how a little bit of fear works for some of us.

I don't have any fear that he will hurt me. But there is something to be said for knowing that he could hurt me. The vulnerability is something I embrace feeling. I feel this way because, at the end of the day, no matter how much he cares for me, I do not, and cannot, control him. Not one bit. And I respect that greatly. I have no say in how he conducts himself other than what credence he wants to give to my opinion. So, even though I feel safe with him, I know that that's only because he makes it so. And if he chooses to make me feel differently, he can. That is the power that he holds, and my safety is entirely at his whim. Prior to him, not one man has truly convinced me that he holds any real power over my being. That power is something that I can be in awe of; something I can respect. I'm not trembling in my boots when he walks by me. But I also know that I do not want to test him. And I guess the short answer is, I only want to love someone that I can respect this way.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/23/2015 8:00:37 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Do you use punishment in your dynamic? Why/why not?

I'm not presently in a relationship with a submissive but I have used punishment within two long term relationships. One thing I've always said is, I don't tolerate the inconsiderate actions of others and I've had a few occasions where the submissive behaved in a very inconsiderate manner. I'm not going to say I wasn't angry because I was (gee I guess that makes me a bad Domme ;)) but believe me, when I'm angry I'm the most controlled person on this earth and believe punishment is best served on a hot plate.

What about funishment? How do you see the difference?

I see funishment as role-play, I see punishment as not playing.

If you do use punishment, what punishment(s) have been particularly effective for YOU, and why?

Its never violent. I don't cane, flog or spank. Its verbally harsh and all about letting that submissive know in no uncertain terms that their actions are not acceptable. I once did this in a club after an almost unforgivable action by my sub and after I'd finished berating her in front of everyone, I made her go round and apologise profusely to all involved. She even had to apologize to the dominant woman she had allowed to touch her which killed two birds with one stone because the dominant woman was embarrassed and humiliated :)

What punishments didn't work for you and why?

I've rarely punished and I really don't want to have to punish because its not my thing but there is no punishment I've handed out that hasn't worked for me.

Have you ever seen or heard of a punishment that you thought was interesting that you can share?

No. I've seen lots of funishment disguised as punishment but that's about it.

What other views on punishment do you have to share?

I think a lot of people pass off funishment as punishment and that irritates me, though its really not my business. I've also heard time and time again that a Dominant should never punish when they are angry. I say, if you can control your anger as I can, there is nothing wrong in striking whilst the iron is hot.


< Message edited by MariaB -- 2/23/2015 8:01:46 AM >

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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/23/2015 8:13:44 AM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:


I am not sure I could love, desire or respect someone that I did not, on some level, fear. It's like the fear holds a little kernel of excitement and truth for me, that I wouldn't feel if I didn't fear him. Even when we are doing something completely vanilla, like making love, to look at him and remember that little flicker of fear that I have for what he might do to me, and the respect I feel for him because of that, makes it completely exciting and overwhelming. I'm not sure I could feel the same way for someone I didn't fear.


This is something I will never understand ever. I can't associate fear with love at all. If I fear someone, I will never go near him or want him in my life. I need to feel safe with him.



Greta, here is how what orgasmdenial12 wrote resonates with me (which is probably different than her intention, but still) - and maybe this will help explain how a little bit of fear works for some of us.

I don't have any fear that he will hurt me. But there is something to be said for knowing that he could hurt me. The vulnerability is something I embrace feeling. I feel this way because, at the end of the day, no matter how much he cares for me, I do not, and cannot, control him. Not one bit. And I respect that greatly. I have no say in how he conducts himself other than what credence he wants to give to my opinion. So, even though I feel safe with him, I know that that's only because he makes it so. And if he chooses to make me feel differently, he can. That is the power that he holds, and my safety is entirely at his whim. Prior to him, not one man has truly convinced me that he holds any real power over my being. That power is something that I can be in awe of; something I can respect. I'm not trembling in my boots when he walks by me. But I also know that I do not want to test him. And I guess the short answer is, I only want to love someone that I can respect this way.


These are sentiments that resonate deeply with me. On another note, I have never really been into the verbal humiliation. In truth it is all very tactile and physical for me. It's very much about "presence". And I believe I have stated before that while in that headspace I am so intent on my actions and my sub's reactions that everything else around me is somewhat muted. Including awareness of others.

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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/23/2015 8:19:08 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Yes this part is melting my brain a little. Looking to be with someone you feel constant fear and anxiety from. I never saw this as part of BDSM. I never associated Fear or distress with BDSM, I associate that with real abuse. I always saw it as utter trust in someone to be into bdsm, you trust him so much that you allow him to do all that seemingly "nasty" and "dangerous" and "painful" things. But never fear. As the only reason why you trust him to do all that to you is because you know deep down he will never truly hurt you.



Its different for everyone. I've known subs that love extreme fear and subs that don't want or need any fear. If I were to go on FL now and set up a capture and interrogation scene you can bet I'll be inundated with people wanting to try that. Its not abuse when its used in a consensual way.


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/23/2015 8:38:33 AM   
NookieNotes


Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
I think a lot of people pass off funishment as punishment and that irritates me, though its really not my business. I've also heard time and time again that a Dominant should never punish when they are angry. I say, if you can control your anger as I can, there is nothing wrong in striking whilst the iron is hot.


That if thing... I am sometimes controlled when I am angry, often not. I do not try to take control of others when I am not controlled myself. And I'd say most people are not good at controlling themselves when angry.

That you are, just makes you MUCH better at that than I am.

On the other hand, it does take a VERY lot to get me angry, so there is that. *smiles*

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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 2/23/2015 8:41:48 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
If I were to go on FL now and set up a capture and interrogation scene you can bet I'll be inundated with people wanting to try that. Its not abuse when its used in a consensual way.

I guess I don't see a capture and interrogation scene has anything to do with fear. It's a scene, it's all fake, it's fun and nothing to fear. You do need to trust the person to a certain degree to handle the scene safely, before you would enter into it, usually.

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 40
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