Casteele
Posts: 655
Joined: 12/10/2011
From: Near Sacramento, California, USA
Status: offline
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Skimmed most of the other posts, but am going to focus my reply mainly on the original topic.. (Side note: Some of my comments may ramble and jump from pt A to pt D as they tumble about in my head, and some may seem "judgmental", but they're only my views and opinions, what I want and accept in my life..)
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ORIGINAL: NookieNotes
Another thread popped up on punishment, and although I don't use punishment in my dynamics (we play with funishment), I am fascinated by it.
I'd love a discussion on punishment as a serious and fun addition to a PE relationship. Here are the questions I have, if you will indulge me:
Do you use punishment in your dynamic? Why/why not?
The question itself is a bit tricky.. I do not use punishment as part of my dynamic; It's just not something that needs to be a part of it. that does not mean I will not or do not use punishment as a tool when and where it is warranted.
Part of my view is based on the very concepts and premises of "punishment"; Punishment is consequence of a wrong doing, and usually (but not always), the perpetrator is (or should be) aware that they were willingly and knowingly doing something wrong. Because of this attitude of mine, it creates a very complex situation in which answering the simple question becomes difficult, with many undercurrents and undertones.
One part of the topic is "rewarding 'bad behavior'"; I'll address this a bit more under the "funishment" question. But for now, I do not believe in rewarding bad behavior; that only encourages more of it, and sends mixed signals. Punishment, IMO, should be a deterrent. It should be an undesirable consequence, and it should always aim at being corrective in action. There's little or no point in punishment just for the sake of punishment. To me, that's simply abuse. Rather, a punishment should put the person in a position to think about what they did wrong, understand that they DID do something wrong, WHY it's wrong, et cetera.
More often than not, I prefer the to use "corrective actions" than "punishment". This broaches other sub-topics such as "positive vs negative reinforcement", et cetera, which i'm not prepared to go in depth in to right now..
Another consideration in my mind is the idea, as some have already expressed, that at this point in our lives, we're all adults here, engaging in adult behavior. It's not my job to BE your parent and teach you right from wrong. You should already have a pretty good idea of right and wrong by the time you engage in this lifestyle--If you do not, then I question whether or not you know and understand it enough to even have "informed consent", which is one thing I feel very strongly about.
In general, for this question/part of the post, I go with the idea of simply talking to my partner when I'm upset or angry with something they've done. Explain why it upset me, why I think they did something wrong, how I think they need to correct it, et cetera. Heck, even as a real parent and uncle, I take this approach with the children in my life. It's simple logic to me: I want them to associate what they did as being something wrong to do. If they only associate "doing X causes me to get hurt", rather than understand why it's wrong, then I've failed, and most likely, the only thing they'll learn is "don't get caught next time."
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What about funishment? How do you see the difference?
"Funishment" is a whole different ball game to me than punishment. But like punishment, I still do not believe in rewarding bad behavior. Rather, I believe funishment should reward good and/or playful behavior, that which is acceptable and understood that it's not serious. it should still be understood that it's just play, and any real infraction would.. disappoint and anger me.
Truth is, however, as I think about it, I don't really engage in much funishment, either. I tend to prefer my partner simply communicate their needs with me. If they want spankings for fun and masochistic pleasure.. they can and should communicate it to me in a clear manner. "Clear manner" gives a lot of leeway, however. For some, acting up in a "bratty" way is a signal that they're feeling that need. For others, simply saying "spank my ass until it's cherry red" is all that is needed. I think the key here is that both sides of the partnership should know and understand each other enough, communicate and agree upon what the terms are, what the signals are, et cetera.
I may come back to this sub-topic later.. some of the thoughts in my head are not really clarifying in to words right now..
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If you do use punishment, what punishment(s) have been particularly effective for YOU, and why?
All of them, but I cannot itemize them as, in general, I take a little time to make the punishment fit the crime. There is no universal "one size fits all" punishment, IMO.
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What punishments didn't work for you and why?
As above, any punishment I've tried as a "one size" has always failed. Instead of teaching and correcting, it only taught them that "doing X" results in "consequence Y", and that lead them to simply try to avoid the undesired consequence, rather than wanting to avoid the undesired action in the first place. That is, they only learned to avoid getting caught.
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Have you ever seen or heard of a punishment that you thought was interesting that you can share?
No, not really.. At least not in the sense that I'm taking the question. I tend to find it interesting to look deeper in to each situation, try to see the dynamics of it, the reasons, the purposes and goals, and how, or if, they were effective and achieved their objectives.
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What other views on punishment do you have to share?
Thanks, ya'll! *smiles*
Again, some of my thoughts are not fully forming in to clear words, so..
I do think that the ideas of punishment and funishment, though they are related in some ways, are also very distinct and disjoint in others. I ten to think that because of the play on the word, people have a tendency to link them as if they're two sides of the same coin.. Which I do not think they are. Each has it's own role and purpose, and can and do exist without any bearing on the other.
One other random thought that I'm having right now.. On the "bratty" concept.. I tend to think of that really as coming too close to the "topping from the bottom" line. It's a form of manipulation, IMO, which does not sit well with me. This is more often the case when the "brat" cannot seem to clearly express exactly what it is they want. To me, that's a cue that they need to sit down and talk it out, try to understand what need or desire is not being met, and how we can make sure it gets met.
Okay, the rest of my thoughts are getting scattered due to a toothache, so I'm going to put this aside for now, and maybe post more (or clarifications if needed) at another time.
Cheers,
Cas/CHB
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RE: The Punishment Dynamic - 
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Next master (Malcolm) used "bad girl" which just about slays me. 
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