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RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/26/2015 1:10:53 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I never really could understand how or why terrorists choose their targets, at least when looking at some of the more notable terrorist attacks during my lifetime. I don't know what any terrorist group could expect to gain by an attack on the Mall of America (or any similar target), other than incurring another wave of intense wrath from the American people. It doesn't cause people to cower in fear or fold up; it just makes people even madder.


My older brother made a comment a few years after 9-11. He said their best strategy could be to level an attack at someplace in the middle of the country. Basically, that would make it known that it wasn't just a "coastal" area that could be attacked.

It very well could have caused more citizens to get even more mad, too.



I would think it would depend on what they're attacking more than the actual location. The 9/11 bombers had lived in various locations around the country for years before the attack, so they conceivably could have attacked anywhere.

Sure, Americans were justifiably extremely outraged over the event, but even despite the pain and tragedy caused by that day, I think the reason most people didn't fold up or cower in fear was because they didn't really see it as a true demonstration of actual power. It would likely be the same even if they attacked somewhere in the middle of the country.




Power is all to often counted in nukes and tanks. Not ability to inflict damage and destruction. It is unfortunate.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/26/2015 1:50:34 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I never really could understand how or why terrorists choose their targets, at least when looking at some of the more notable terrorist attacks during my lifetime. I don't know what any terrorist group could expect to gain by an attack on the Mall of America (or any similar target), other than incurring another wave of intense wrath from the American people. It doesn't cause people to cower in fear or fold up; it just makes people even madder.


My older brother made a comment a few years after 9-11. He said their best strategy could be to level an attack at someplace in the middle of the country. Basically, that would make it known that it wasn't just a "coastal" area that could be attacked.

It very well could have caused more citizens to get even more mad, too.



I would think it would depend on what they're attacking more than the actual location. The 9/11 bombers had lived in various locations around the country for years before the attack, so they conceivably could have attacked anywhere.

Sure, Americans were justifiably extremely outraged over the event, but even despite the pain and tragedy caused by that day, I think the reason most people didn't fold up or cower in fear was because they didn't really see it as a true demonstration of actual power. It would likely be the same even if they attacked somewhere in the middle of the country.

Power is all to often counted in nukes and tanks. Not ability to inflict damage and destruction. It is unfortunate.


No, actually power is counted on how much control over something one holds. A tank is powerful, but if you control or hold steady influence over the people within the tank, how much of a threat is it to you? From religious leaders to the Hitler, history and science have shown that once you control the mind, the belief systems, and the 'willpower' of a person; you control them. If you keep telling people a lie, after a while, they believe it as truth. Or subtly nudge one's views or perspectives in one directly long enough, that person starts thinking the views were their original idea.

Further still, it really doesn't take much effort to stir people into action. FOX 'news' does it on an hourly basis with conservatives! The trick is to say words that become linked to emotions. So when a word or phrase is spoken, the listener's subconscious takes the 'file' containing that word and the associated emotion with it. Now the mind is listening much more to the speaker. But it doesnt work with just one word or phrase, but a few of them. Which is often those "Damn, liberal, Democrats, screwing around with the Constitution and trying to take our guns away!" How many triggers did I just say in that sentence? What's worst, is those effected are less likely to consider what is spoken in the next bit in a critical manner; instead accept what is told and act or behave in a desired manner.

Now that's over just a few seconds. FOX 'news' has been doing this on the unsuspecting public for a decade! So the training is less subtle, but the effects are enormous. How many people hate the Affordable Care Act? Verse, how many people hate the Affordable Care Act because they actually READ the law? People tell others how to think, linking emotions subtly to gain the desired effect. The end result are people that may not realize their actions or words are bad. Or worst, come to believe their actions and words or correct, when to everyone in reality; its some warped psycho on a rampage.




(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/26/2015 6:05:45 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I never really could understand how or why terrorists choose their targets, at least when looking at some of the more notable terrorist attacks during my lifetime. I don't know what any terrorist group could expect to gain by an attack on the Mall of America (or any similar target), other than incurring another wave of intense wrath from the American people. It doesn't cause people to cower in fear or fold up; it just makes people even madder.


My older brother made a comment a few years after 9-11. He said their best strategy could be to level an attack at someplace in the middle of the country. Basically, that would make it known that it wasn't just a "coastal" area that could be attacked.

It very well could have caused more citizens to get even more mad, too.



I would think it would depend on what they're attacking more than the actual location. The 9/11 bombers had lived in various locations around the country for years before the attack, so they conceivably could have attacked anywhere.

Sure, Americans were justifiably extremely outraged over the event, but even despite the pain and tragedy caused by that day, I think the reason most people didn't fold up or cower in fear was because they didn't really see it as a true demonstration of actual power. It would likely be the same even if they attacked somewhere in the middle of the country.

Power is all to often counted in nukes and tanks. Not ability to inflict damage and destruction. It is unfortunate.


No, actually power is counted on how much control over something one holds. A tank is powerful, but if you control or hold steady influence over the people within the tank, how much of a threat is it to you? From religious leaders to the Hitler, history and science have shown that once you control the mind, the belief systems, and the 'willpower' of a person; you control them. If you keep telling people a lie, after a while, they believe it as truth. Or subtly nudge one's views or perspectives in one directly long enough, that person starts thinking the views were their original idea.

Further still, it really doesn't take much effort to stir people into action. FOX 'news' does it on an hourly basis with conservatives! The trick is to say words that become linked to emotions. So when a word or phrase is spoken, the listener's subconscious takes the 'file' containing that word and the associated emotion with it. Now the mind is listening much more to the speaker. But it doesnt work with just one word or phrase, but a few of them. Which is often those "Damn, liberal, Democrats, screwing around with the Constitution and trying to take our guns away!" How many triggers did I just say in that sentence? What's worst, is those effected are less likely to consider what is spoken in the next bit in a critical manner; instead accept what is told and act or behave in a desired manner.

Now that's over just a few seconds. FOX 'news' has been doing this on the unsuspecting public for a decade! So the training is less subtle, but the effects are enormous. How many people hate the Affordable Care Act? Verse, how many people hate the Affordable Care Act because they actually READ the law? People tell others how to think, linking emotions subtly to gain the desired effect. The end result are people that may not realize their actions or words are bad. Or worst, come to believe their actions and words or correct, when to everyone in reality; its some warped psycho on a rampage.







I appreciate your opinion and disagree. The fear created by the ability to inflict damage and distruction outweighs any subliminal message delivered otherwise. As for your hypothetical, you left out the operative word "some". I come from a long line of Democrats. That I know of, my sister and I are the only Republicans. And I would hate to see anyone trying to take away the weapons of the family ranchers who use them as tools against snakes (mostly cottonmouths and rattlers), coyotes and rustlers (yes they still exist) from the ranges of the family ranches. I use my weapons to kill the drated engineer stake and his allies the tin can, the empty water and soda bottles, and paper. When camping and rock hunting, I do use them to protect myself and my family from snakes, bobcats and other such critters. I have used an airsoft pistol on that damned elk that learned how to open my ice chest. He learned to back away.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/26/2015 6:48:30 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Power is all to often counted in nukes and tanks. Not ability to inflict damage and destruction. It is unfortunate.


Yes, since the ability to inflict damage and destruction is something that nearly anybody can do. As we've seen with various mass murders over the years, any half-witted maniac can inflict damage and destruction to some degree. It doesn't make them powerful.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/26/2015 1:36:52 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Why do you think the government should be all knowing? They are just people like you and I doing their best. They will make the same mistakes we would make.


I was reading something online from mises.org (I think). It mentioned that Democrats are really pushing for government to save us from ourselves, as if we aren't smart enough to know better. It also brought up the point that government saving us from ourselves is a flawed idea in and of itself, as Citizens (who aren't smart enough to know better) are electing a group of other Citizens to control all Citizens. If we aren't smart enough to be responsible for ourselves, how the fuck can we be smart enough to choose those who are smart enough to be responsible for us?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/26/2015 1:38:45 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I never really could understand how or why terrorists choose their targets, at least when looking at some of the more notable terrorist attacks during my lifetime. I don't know what any terrorist group could expect to gain by an attack on the Mall of America (or any similar target), other than incurring another wave of intense wrath from the American people. It doesn't cause people to cower in fear or fold up; it just makes people even madder.

My older brother made a comment a few years after 9-11. He said their best strategy could be to level an attack at someplace in the middle of the country. Basically, that would make it known that it wasn't just a "coastal" area that could be attacked.
It very well could have caused more citizens to get even more mad, too.

I would think it would depend on what they're attacking more than the actual location. The 9/11 bombers had lived in various locations around the country for years before the attack, so they conceivably could have attacked anywhere.
Sure, Americans were justifiably extremely outraged over the event, but even despite the pain and tragedy caused by that day, I think the reason most people didn't fold up or cower in fear was because they didn't really see it as a true demonstration of actual power. It would likely be the same even if they attacked somewhere in the middle of the country.


What would have been seen as a "true demonstration of actual power?"

I think my brother's sentiment was stated succinctly by Bama:
    quote:

    From day one I thought it would have been more effective to strike multiple smaller targets away from the major cities to tell people that no one is safe.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/26/2015 5:33:10 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I never really could understand how or why terrorists choose their targets, at least when looking at some of the more notable terrorist attacks during my lifetime. I don't know what any terrorist group could expect to gain by an attack on the Mall of America (or any similar target), other than incurring another wave of intense wrath from the American people. It doesn't cause people to cower in fear or fold up; it just makes people even madder.

My older brother made a comment a few years after 9-11. He said their best strategy could be to level an attack at someplace in the middle of the country. Basically, that would make it known that it wasn't just a "coastal" area that could be attacked.
It very well could have caused more citizens to get even more mad, too.

I would think it would depend on what they're attacking more than the actual location. The 9/11 bombers had lived in various locations around the country for years before the attack, so they conceivably could have attacked anywhere.
Sure, Americans were justifiably extremely outraged over the event, but even despite the pain and tragedy caused by that day, I think the reason most people didn't fold up or cower in fear was because they didn't really see it as a true demonstration of actual power. It would likely be the same even if they attacked somewhere in the middle of the country.


What would have been seen as a "true demonstration of actual power?"

I think my brother's sentiment was stated succinctly by Bama:
    quote:

    From day one I thought it would have been more effective to strike multiple smaller targets away from the major cities to tell people that no one is safe.



I agree that multiple attacks would send a message that no one is safe, but as far as demonstrating actual power, it would have to be a constant thing lasting through years of consistent daily bombings - something similar to the Allied terror bombings of the Axis nations during WW2. It would have to be something beyond the abilities of a small ragtag band - a level of power that would require the organizational skills, resources, manpower, industrial capacity, and military might of a major power.

Remember, we're talking about enough power to be able to break the will of the American people, most of whom believe that America is the most powerful nation on Earth. I would think it would have to take an awful lot to be able to alter that perception to make Americans believe that we are a weak nation incapable of defending ourselves.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/26/2015 5:43:09 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Remember, we're talking about enough power to be able to break the will of the American people, most of whom believe that America is the most powerful nation on Earth. I would think it would have to take an awful lot to be able to alter that perception to make Americans believe that we are a weak nation incapable of defending ourselves.


Back then, yes. Now? After how many years of our elected leadership telling us and the world that we are much of the problem?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/26/2015 5:47:42 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I never really could understand how or why terrorists choose their targets, at least when looking at some of the more notable terrorist attacks during my lifetime. I don't know what any terrorist group could expect to gain by an attack on the Mall of America (or any similar target), other than incurring another wave of intense wrath from the American people. It doesn't cause people to cower in fear or fold up; it just makes people even madder.

My older brother made a comment a few years after 9-11. He said their best strategy could be to level an attack at someplace in the middle of the country. Basically, that would make it known that it wasn't just a "coastal" area that could be attacked.
It very well could have caused more citizens to get even more mad, too.

I would think it would depend on what they're attacking more than the actual location. The 9/11 bombers had lived in various locations around the country for years before the attack, so they conceivably could have attacked anywhere.
Sure, Americans were justifiably extremely outraged over the event, but even despite the pain and tragedy caused by that day, I think the reason most people didn't fold up or cower in fear was because they didn't really see it as a true demonstration of actual power. It would likely be the same even if they attacked somewhere in the middle of the country.


What would have been seen as a "true demonstration of actual power?"

I think my brother's sentiment was stated succinctly by Bama:
    quote:

    From day one I thought it would have been more effective to strike multiple smaller targets away from the major cities to tell people that no one is safe.



I agree that multiple attacks would send a message that no one is safe, but as far as demonstrating actual power, it would have to be a constant thing lasting through years of consistent daily bombings - something similar to the Allied terror bombings of the Axis nations during WW2. It would have to be something beyond the abilities of a small ragtag band - a level of power that would require the organizational skills, resources, manpower, industrial capacity, and military might of a major power.

Remember, we're talking about enough power to be able to break the will of the American people, most of whom believe that America is the most powerful nation on Earth. I would think it would have to take an awful lot to be able to alter that perception to make Americans believe that we are a weak nation incapable of defending ourselves.

They wouldn't and don't try to prove they can defeat the country, just try to see too it that no one feels safe.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/26/2015 6:21:10 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Remember, we're talking about enough power to be able to break the will of the American people, most of whom believe that America is the most powerful nation on Earth. I would think it would have to take an awful lot to be able to alter that perception to make Americans believe that we are a weak nation incapable of defending ourselves.


Back then, yes. Now? After how many years of our elected leadership telling us and the world that we are much of the problem?



I don't know if it's our elected leadership saying that we are the problem, although some might believe that because we are so powerful, we have a moral duty to exercise restraint and benevolence. If we abuse our power, then that may not set well with some people. But that, in and of itself, would not break Americans' will to defend themselves, even if they strongly oppose embarking on aggressive warfare and overseas interventionism.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/27/2015 3:16:10 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Remember, we're talking about enough power to be able to break the will of the American people, most of whom believe that America is the most powerful nation on Earth. I would think it would have to take an awful lot to be able to alter that perception to make Americans believe that we are a weak nation incapable of defending ourselves.

Back then, yes. Now? After how many years of our elected leadership telling us and the world that we are much of the problem?

I don't know if it's our elected leadership saying that we are the problem, although some might believe that because we are so powerful, we have a moral duty to exercise restraint and benevolence. If we abuse our power, then that may not set well with some people. But that, in and of itself, would not break Americans' will to defend themselves, even if they strongly oppose embarking on aggressive warfare and overseas interventionism.


Seriously? It sure seems like, no matter the woe, the US is the main causal factor. I'm sure there are even posters here that would put at least some blame on the US for an environmental spill in China.

I admit that much of the issue we have in the Middle East (note: that does not mean all the problems in the ME) are of our own doing, or have come about because of our past actions there. Some might even say we are just getting the consequences of our actions, when terrorists attack us.

We will always defend ourselves. We may not respond all that aggressively, though.

You're right, that won't break our will to defend, but it might weaken it.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/27/2015 5:46:57 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Remember, we're talking about enough power to be able to break the will of the American people, most of whom believe that America is the most powerful nation on Earth. I would think it would have to take an awful lot to be able to alter that perception to make Americans believe that we are a weak nation incapable of defending ourselves.

Back then, yes. Now? After how many years of our elected leadership telling us and the world that we are much of the problem?

I don't know if it's our elected leadership saying that we are the problem, although some might believe that because we are so powerful, we have a moral duty to exercise restraint and benevolence. If we abuse our power, then that may not set well with some people. But that, in and of itself, would not break Americans' will to defend themselves, even if they strongly oppose embarking on aggressive warfare and overseas interventionism.


Seriously? It sure seems like, no matter the woe, the US is the main causal factor. I'm sure there are even posters here that would put at least some blame on the US for an environmental spill in China.

I admit that much of the issue we have in the Middle East (note: that does not mean all the problems in the ME) are of our own doing, or have come about because of our past actions there. Some might even say we are just getting the consequences of our actions, when terrorists attack us.

We will always defend ourselves. We may not respond all that aggressively, though.

You're right, that won't break our will to defend, but it might weaken it.




Not saying that I either totally agree or totally disagree but would not the solution be to pull our troops home from every country, push the UN out of NYC, discontinue our treaties with all countries and go into a world of isolation? Just asking because I don't think it would work.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/27/2015 9:27:09 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Remember, we're talking about enough power to be able to break the will of the American people, most of whom believe that America is the most powerful nation on Earth. I would think it would have to take an awful lot to be able to alter that perception to make Americans believe that we are a weak nation incapable of defending ourselves.

Back then, yes. Now? After how many years of our elected leadership telling us and the world that we are much of the problem?

I don't know if it's our elected leadership saying that we are the problem, although some might believe that because we are so powerful, we have a moral duty to exercise restraint and benevolence. If we abuse our power, then that may not set well with some people. But that, in and of itself, would not break Americans' will to defend themselves, even if they strongly oppose embarking on aggressive warfare and overseas interventionism.


Seriously? It sure seems like, no matter the woe, the US is the main causal factor. I'm sure there are even posters here that would put at least some blame on the US for an environmental spill in China.

I admit that much of the issue we have in the Middle East (note: that does not mean all the problems in the ME) are of our own doing, or have come about because of our past actions there. Some might even say we are just getting the consequences of our actions, when terrorists attack us.

We will always defend ourselves. We may not respond all that aggressively, though.

You're right, that won't break our will to defend, but it might weaken it.


No but they would tell us not to criticize China because the U S is so much worse.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/27/2015 9:34:28 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I don't know if it's our elected leadership saying that we are the problem, although some might believe that because we are so powerful, we have a moral duty to exercise restraint and benevolence. If we abuse our power, then that may not set well with some people. But that, in and of itself, would not break Americans' will to defend themselves, even if they strongly oppose embarking on aggressive warfare and overseas interventionism.


Seriously? It sure seems like, no matter the woe, the US is the main causal factor. I'm sure there are even posters here that would put at least some blame on the US for an environmental spill in China.


I think there are those who would blame the US for abusing its power or otherwise getting involved in things which have little or nothing to do with national security. I don't think anyone would suggest that the US is responsible for every woe in the world. However, if we look at the set of nations commonly referred to as "the West," it might be suggested that due to the West's long-term control and influence over most of the world's territories, resources, political systems, and economies, we might have a shared responsibility for the results and consequences.

quote:


I admit that much of the issue we have in the Middle East (note: that does not mean all the problems in the ME) are of our own doing, or have come about because of our past actions there. Some might even say we are just getting the consequences of our actions, when terrorists attack us.


Part of the problem with the Middle East (and Africa) has to do with the legacy of colonialism and the willy-nilly way that country borders were drawn when these nations became independent. So, one tribe might find their previously indigenous region partly in one country and partly in another country, while they share a nation with another tribe with whom they may not be on good terms. Strictly speaking, a lot of that happened before the US got involved, as our allies (France and Britain) were the major players in this region long before we ever got involved. But even Anglo-French involvement had been a relatively recent development, as the Ottoman Empire held primacy over the region until WW1.

As for terrorist attacks being the consequences of our actions, that may actually be true in multiple ways, depending on how one looks at it. Some might say that we are to blame for inflaming the people to the point where they want to attack us, although we've also provided the weapons and tools they need to become an even greater threat.

This was largely due to our obsession with wanting to prevent a feared Soviet takeover of the Middle East. Israel was another factor, and that made it all the more complicated.

Then there was the Shah of Iran, whom we installed in 1953, only to see him overthrown in 1979, culminating in the US embassy hostage crisis in Tehran which ended the Carter presidency and gave us Ronald Reagan. Reagan showed his gratitude to the Iranians a few years later. He also sent weapons to the Afghan rebels who were fighting the Soviet invasion of that country, but once the Soviets withdrew and these people took over...well, we saw how that turned out.

There are quite a number of actions we've undertaken in the region, and no doubt many consequences for those actions. Without questioning whether these actions were wrong or right, I think one also has to examine the practical matter that, if one chooses to meddle around in another country's internal affairs, one has to presume that there will be those who won't like that and may become angry enough to attack us. All these alliances and interventionist policies carry risks. Presumably, our leaders in government are aware of the risks these actions carry, and frankly, the American public should also be aware of these risks.

quote:


We will always defend ourselves. We may not respond all that aggressively, though.

You're right, that won't break our will to defend, but it might weaken it.


Whatever more serious threats there may be to America are probably more internal. If America's will is ever broken or destroyed, it will be destroyed from within. But that's where the terrorists lose, since whenever they attack us, whatever internal divisions which exist in America are temporarily forgotten and set aside in favor of national unity brought about by a shared tragedy which affects all Americans. If anything, it strengthens Americans' will, not weaken it.





(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/27/2015 9:34:34 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
No one I know at the Mall of America would say that.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/27/2015 5:00:59 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Remember, we're talking about enough power to be able to break the will of the American people, most of whom believe that America is the most powerful nation on Earth. I would think it would have to take an awful lot to be able to alter that perception to make Americans believe that we are a weak nation incapable of defending ourselves.

Back then, yes. Now? After how many years of our elected leadership telling us and the world that we are much of the problem?

I don't know if it's our elected leadership saying that we are the problem, although some might believe that because we are so powerful, we have a moral duty to exercise restraint and benevolence. If we abuse our power, then that may not set well with some people. But that, in and of itself, would not break Americans' will to defend themselves, even if they strongly oppose embarking on aggressive warfare and overseas interventionism.

Seriously? It sure seems like, no matter the woe, the US is the main causal factor. I'm sure there are even posters here that would put at least some blame on the US for an environmental spill in China.
I admit that much of the issue we have in the Middle East (note: that does not mean all the problems in the ME) are of our own doing, or have come about because of our past actions there. Some might even say we are just getting the consequences of our actions, when terrorists attack us.
We will always defend ourselves. We may not respond all that aggressively, though.
You're right, that won't break our will to defend, but it might weaken it.

Not saying that I either totally agree or totally disagree but would not the solution be to pull our troops home from every country, push the UN out of NYC, discontinue our treaties with all countries and go into a world of isolation? Just asking because I don't think it would work.


I absolutely believe we should pull our troops back home, and close our foreign bases. I've been an unabashed supporter of that for years now. If a country wants to sponsor a US base, and pay the costs of having one in their country, then that should be a service offered. Do we need a military base on Guam? Does Guam want us to have a military base there? What need is being satisfied by a base on Guam?

I do think we need to push the UN out of the US. The UN, unfortunately, is a farce. Threats are made, and, for the most part, not backed up. What's the point?

Why do we need to go "into a world of isolation?" Why would we end all our treaties with other countries? End all the ones that aren't helping the US. We don't need to have treaties that don't help the US.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/27/2015 5:04:48 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Remember, we're talking about enough power to be able to break the will of the American people, most of whom believe that America is the most powerful nation on Earth. I would think it would have to take an awful lot to be able to alter that perception to make Americans believe that we are a weak nation incapable of defending ourselves.

Back then, yes. Now? After how many years of our elected leadership telling us and the world that we are much of the problem?

I don't know if it's our elected leadership saying that we are the problem, although some might believe that because we are so powerful, we have a moral duty to exercise restraint and benevolence. If we abuse our power, then that may not set well with some people. But that, in and of itself, would not break Americans' will to defend themselves, even if they strongly oppose embarking on aggressive warfare and overseas interventionism.

Seriously? It sure seems like, no matter the woe, the US is the main causal factor. I'm sure there are even posters here that would put at least some blame on the US for an environmental spill in China.
I admit that much of the issue we have in the Middle East (note: that does not mean all the problems in the ME) are of our own doing, or have come about because of our past actions there. Some might even say we are just getting the consequences of our actions, when terrorists attack us.
We will always defend ourselves. We may not respond all that aggressively, though.
You're right, that won't break our will to defend, but it might weaken it.

Not saying that I either totally agree or totally disagree but would not the solution be to pull our troops home from every country, push the UN out of NYC, discontinue our treaties with all countries and go into a world of isolation? Just asking because I don't think it would work.


I absolutely believe we should pull our troops back home, and close our foreign bases. I've been an unabashed supporter of that for years now. If a country wants to sponsor a US base, and pay the costs of having one in their country, then that should be a service offered. Do we need a military base on Guam? Does Guam want us to have a military base there? What need is being satisfied by a base on Guam?

I do think we need to push the UN out of the US. The UN, unfortunately, is a farce. Threats are made, and, for the most part, not backed up. What's the point?

Why do we need to go "into a world of isolation?" Why would we end all our treaties with other countries? End all the ones that aren't helping the US. We don't need to have treaties that don't help the US.


Guam is a US territory

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/27/2015 5:15:34 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
Remember, we're talking about enough power to be able to break the will of the American people, most of whom believe that America is the most powerful nation on Earth. I would think it would have to take an awful lot to be able to alter that perception to make Americans believe that we are a weak nation incapable of defending ourselves.

Back then, yes. Now? After how many years of our elected leadership telling us and the world that we are much of the problem?

I don't know if it's our elected leadership saying that we are the problem, although some might believe that because we are so powerful, we have a moral duty to exercise restraint and benevolence. If we abuse our power, then that may not set well with some people. But that, in and of itself, would not break Americans' will to defend themselves, even if they strongly oppose embarking on aggressive warfare and overseas interventionism.

Seriously? It sure seems like, no matter the woe, the US is the main causal factor. I'm sure there are even posters here that would put at least some blame on the US for an environmental spill in China.
I admit that much of the issue we have in the Middle East (note: that does not mean all the problems in the ME) are of our own doing, or have come about because of our past actions there. Some might even say we are just getting the consequences of our actions, when terrorists attack us.
We will always defend ourselves. We may not respond all that aggressively, though.
You're right, that won't break our will to defend, but it might weaken it.

Not saying that I either totally agree or totally disagree but would not the solution be to pull our troops home from every country, push the UN out of NYC, discontinue our treaties with all countries and go into a world of isolation? Just asking because I don't think it would work.

I absolutely believe we should pull our troops back home, and close our foreign bases. I've been an unabashed supporter of that for years now. If a country wants to sponsor a US base, and pay the costs of having one in their country, then that should be a service offered. Do we need a military base on Guam? Does Guam want us to have a military base there? What need is being satisfied by a base on Guam?
I do think we need to push the UN out of the US. The UN, unfortunately, is a farce. Threats are made, and, for the most part, not backed up. What's the point?
Why do we need to go "into a world of isolation?" Why would we end all our treaties with other countries? End all the ones that aren't helping the US. We don't need to have treaties that don't help the US.

Guam is a US territory


Yes, it is. My bad. I'm for closing our bases that aren't in one of the States (except any in DC), unless there is a damn good reason for it to remain. That, then, would include Guam.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/27/2015 6:01:52 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
On Guam... the base in Guam is mainly a resupply and refueling point for our military transiting tropical Pacific Ocean waters. The airfield and docks are mainly resupply points. A lot like the base in Diego Garcia (Indian Ocean) it is mainly a secure resupply point.

The last time I was in Guam was 1984. At that time there were only two sources for jobs on the island; the resupply base, and a ritzy Japanese owned resort. The only things open out in town after 5pm were a MacDonald's and a single strip club and bar.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Threat to the Mall of the Americas - 2/28/2015 5:44:36 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
On Guam... the base in Guam is mainly a resupply and refueling point for our military transiting tropical Pacific Ocean waters. The airfield and docks are mainly resupply points. A lot like the base in Diego Garcia (Indian Ocean) it is mainly a secure resupply point.
The last time I was in Guam was 1984. At that time there were only two sources for jobs on the island; the resupply base, and a ritzy Japanese owned resort. The only things open out in town after 5pm were a MacDonald's and a single strip club and bar.


Do we currently have a need for that? Shutter it, and bring it back up when it's needed. The employment situation on Guam is not ours to solve.

It's also, apparently, could be in jeopardy of tipping over.


< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 2/28/2015 5:49:33 AM >


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 100
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