RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY?

RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/4/2015 6:28:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Scared? Afraid? One mustnt "fear" cockroaches (for example) to loathe them and exterminate them. Its more like proper hygiene To compare other humans as cockroaches to be exterminated is a throwback to Nazi Germany. Were those the good old days, hey? Comparing ISIS to cockroaches doesnt make me a "Nazi" any more than your defending them... Umm... Wait... Never mind. Comparing any human beings to roaches needing extermination is a Nazi trope.

tweakabelle -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/4/2015 7:29:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Sure. In delving to the one you chose to challenge: Many, if not most, of the Islamic terrorist leaders have money. Osama Bin Laden had money and contacys, Jihadi John comes from an upper middle class background, Ayman al Zawahiri is a surgeon who comes from a wealthy, prominent family. In the case of ISIS terrorists, if its estimated 31,500 members weren’t well off to start, they certainly could be now if ISIS were to divvy up its massive $2 billion and growing wealth–a sum that makes it the world’s richest terrorist group. That works out to $63,492 per ISIS terrorist–an amount well above U.S. median income. As even the U.S. Treasury Department notes, ISIS makes about $1 million a day off just its black market oil sales. http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/02/21/isis-is-massively-wealthy-despite-obamas-contention-poverty-the-cause-of-terrorism/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesinternational/2014/12/12/the-worlds-10-richest-terrorist-organizations/ Disaffected youth? Do you really think if we'd stepped in before World War II, before Hitler rose to his greatest prominence, and offered the German people jobs, they would not have followed the little, mustachioed man that promised them glory? A return to German might? A return to a German position of significance in the world? A return to a Germany without the problem of the Juden? No more than these young people. And why should we be responsible for creating jobs for them anyway? Our leaders catch enough grief for not somehow miraculously doing that now. Firstly thank you for answering my question and apologies for not responding any earlier. Most terrorism occurs in areas of great poverty such as Sri Lanka or Afghanistan. Even in wealthy Europe, terrorism such as that in Northern Ireland was centred in areas of poverty with unemployment often running at 25% or more. Situations of extreme poverty such as Germany in the 1920s and 30s that gave rise to Nazism, are very fertile ground for terrorist recruiting and activity. Most analyses of the rise of Nazism (your example, not mine) include massive poverty, unemployment, runaway inflation of the Weimar Republic era and even hunger as major factors that facilitated the rise of the Nazis. It was Hitler's success in turning these problems around that led to his popularity with ordinary Germans. Had the millions of unemployed Germans of that era had jobs and some measure of economic security there is every probability that Hitler and the Nazis would have remained obscure fringe extremists far from the halls of power. Your analysis of IS's wealth is childish. Has it escaped your attention that IS is ruling an area larger than many States as well as running a war? Both of these are expensive propositions that no doubt absorb huge amounts of the funds available to IS. There are real social and political problems underlying terrorism in almost every location where we see terrorist activity. Prosperous people living in countries with political systems that respond to the needs of their people do not resort to terrorism. People only turn to extreme solutions when they are faced with extreme problems. Failure to grasp this basic point will ensure that you will never understand the phenomenon of terrorism and so will find it impossible to come up with viable solutions to it.

CreativeDominant -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/4/2015 9:52:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Sure. In delving to the one you chose to challenge: Many, if not most, of the Islamic terrorist leaders have money. Osama Bin Laden had money and contacys, Jihadi John comes from an upper middle class background, Ayman al Zawahiri is a surgeon who comes from a wealthy, prominent family. In the case of ISIS terrorists, if its estimated 31,500 members weren’t well off to start, they certainly could be now if ISIS were to divvy up its massive $2 billion and growing wealth–a sum that makes it the world’s richest terrorist group. That works out to $63,492 per ISIS terrorist–an amount well above U.S. median income. As even the U.S. Treasury Department notes, ISIS makes about $1 million a day off just its black market oil sales. http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/02/21/isis-is-massively-wealthy-despite-obamas-contention-poverty-the-cause-of-terrorism/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesinternational/2014/12/12/the-worlds-10-richest-terrorist-organizations/ Disaffected youth? Do you really think if we'd stepped in before World War II, before Hitler rose to his greatest prominence, and offered the German people jobs, they would not have followed the little, mustachioed man that promised them glory? A return to German might? A return to a German position of significance in the world? A return to a Germany without the problem of the Juden? No more than these young people. And why should we be responsible for creating jobs for them anyway? Our leaders catch enough grief for not somehow miraculously doing that now. Firstly thank you for answering my question and apologies for not responding any earlier. Most terrorism occurs in areas of great poverty such as Sri Lanka or Afghanistan. Even in wealthy Europe, terrorism such as that in Northern Ireland was centred in areas of poverty with unemployment often running at 25% or more. Situations of extreme poverty such as Germany in the 1920s and 30s that gave rise to Nazism, are very fertile ground for terrorist recruiting and activity. Most analyses of the rise of Nazism (your example, not mine) include massive poverty, unemployment, runaway inflation of the Weimar Republic era and even hunger as major factors that facilitated the rise of the Nazis. It was Hitler's success in turning these problems around that led to his popularity with ordinary Germans. Had the millions of unemployed Germans of that era had jobs and some measure of economic security there is every probability that Hitler and the Nazis would have remained obscure fringe extremists far from the halls of power. Your analysis of IS's wealth is childish. Has it escaped your attention that IS is ruling an area larger than many States as well as running a war? Both of these are expensive propositions that no doubt absorb huge amounts of the funds available to IS. There are real social and political problems underlying terrorism in almost every location where we see terrorist activity. Prosperous people living in countries with political systems that respond to the needs of their people do not resort to terrorism. People only turn to extreme solutions when they are faced with extreme problems. Failure to grasp this basic point will ensure that you will never understand the phenomenon of terrorism and so will find it impossible to come up with viable solutions to it. I understand the poverty of some...certainly not all...of the recruits to the terrorist causes. Again, I ask what would you have the U.S. or any other western nation do? Provide jobs in some fashion for these folks? Seems to me that there's an awful lot of bitching that goes on when U.S. corporations outsource jobs overseas. To go through your own view of Hitler's rise...which mirrors my own in some aspects, you fail to answer the question again...do you somehow think that the U. S. And other nations should have provided jobs? Or do you think that the U.S. and other western nations could have thrown money at Germany then and the terrorist organizations of today and somehow, that would put a halt to their twisted ideologies? Do you think a billion a year...funds distributed equally through some organization such as the U N....would quell their hatred of the West? And if it does not, then what? Another "apology tour" maybe?

vincentML -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/4/2015 10:19:54 AM)
quote: To go through your own view of Hitler's rise...which mirrors my own in some aspects, you fail to answer the question again...do you somehow think that the U. S. And other nations should have provided jobs? The United States did provide jobs during that period. It was called the WPA and the jobs were for Americans paid for through deficit spending. The problem for Germany was that American and French bankers resisted FDR's attempts to ease the punishing war reparations that had brought the Weimer Republic to such dire straights. The Communist Party USA and Father Charles Coughlin's fascist movement had many paper troopers but they never copied the brawls between the Reds and Nazis in the streets of Munich and Berlin, because there were work programs.

Zonie63 -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/4/2015 11:16:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant I understand the poverty of some...certainly not all...of the recruits to the terrorist causes. Again, I ask what would you have the U.S. or any other western nation do? Provide jobs in some fashion for these folks? Seems to me that there's an awful lot of bitching that goes on when U.S. corporations outsource jobs overseas. To go through your own view of Hitler's rise...which mirrors my own in some aspects, you fail to answer the question again...do you somehow think that the U. S. And other nations should have provided jobs? Or do you think that the U.S. and other western nations could have thrown money at Germany then and the terrorist organizations of today and somehow, that would put a halt to their twisted ideologies? Do you think a billion a year...funds distributed equally through some organization such as the U N....would quell their hatred of the West? And if it does not, then what? Another "apology tour" maybe? I don't think money is really the answer here. It really shouldn't be that difficult to figure out why many of these countries are anti-Western and harbor deep resentments of Western governments. It's as easy as examining the reasons why many Americans are critical of their own government, from both sides of the spectrum. Many Americans can see through the political BS and hypocrisy in our government, and so can those in other parts of the world. They look at our leaders and see liars, hypocrites, and products of political machines. I think it's the hypocrisy which pisses them off the most. This is a region which has to contend with numerous invasions by megalomaniacal empires seeking glory and riches, such as the Romans and the Mongols. They may not have liked it, but at least it was honest and plain. They made no real pretense at being the "good guys." But unlike previous invaders, we're trying to pass ourselves off as "white knights" and "defenders of freedom," which they would see as arrogant. It adds insult to injury, since their ideas of "good" and "evil" were formulated long before America was a gleam in anyone's eye. The difference here is that Americans generally have a higher tolerance for lies and hypocrisy than many other nations do. Maybe it's because we've grown used to it or numb to it that it doesn't faze us nearly as much is it should. We don't really have to throw money at any nation (although that's not so unprecedented as you're making it out to be), but perhaps if we embraced the idea that honesty is the best policy, we might achieve better results with countries which have a lower tolerance for BS than we do. We don't have to be "kind," "gentle," or even "generous." Just be honest. How difficult can that be?

CreativeDominant -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/4/2015 7:45:18 PM)
Honest? Just how honest would you have us be? Would you like us to tell them we font have jobs for people who declare no homeland other than the "Islamic State"? Where is that anyway? Does it have borders? Are cartographers at work even now mapping it out? People who don't have as high of a tolerance for bullshit as we do? Please...they See rape as a bullshit lie on a woman's part and punish the woman for it. They see stealing...Except by themselves of course...as a bullshit way of not working and/or as taking something that does not belong to you and cut off your hands for it. They see it as O.k. to mutilate young girls to support their bullshit claim that women are not supposed to enjoy sex. They kill...to this DAY...others in support of the bullshit notion that their way is the only true fucking way and the rest of us are infidels. You never answered my question or ones similar asked of you...instead, you came back, like many who loathe the country and civilization we live in with reasons why it is all our fault and none of theirs. So, I am going to ask again...do you REALLY think us giving them money will quell their hatred for us? And I'll add one...should we expect something for that money...or is a quelling of their bloodthirsty and hatred enough for you?

tweakabelle -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/5/2015 6:14:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle. Your analysis of IS's wealth is childish. Has it escaped your attention that IS is ruling an area larger than many States as well as running a war? Both of these are expensive propositions that no doubt absorb huge amounts of the funds available to IS. There are real social and political problems underlying terrorism in almost every location where we see terrorist activity. Prosperous people living in countries with political systems that respond to the needs of their people do not resort to terrorism. People only turn to extreme solutions when they are faced with extreme problems. Failure to grasp this basic point will ensure that you will never understand the phenomenon of terrorism and so will find it impossible to come up with viable solutions to it. I understand the poverty of some...certainly not all...of the recruits to the terrorist causes. Again, I ask what would you have the U.S. or any other western nation do? Provide jobs in some fashion for these folks? Seems to me that there's an awful lot of bitching that goes on when U.S. corporations outsource jobs overseas. To go through your own view of Hitler's rise...which mirrors my own in some aspects, you fail to answer the question again...do you somehow think that the U. S. And other nations should have provided jobs? Or do you think that the U.S. and other western nations could have thrown money at Germany then and the terrorist organizations of today and somehow, that would put a halt to their twisted ideologies? Do you think a billion a year...funds distributed equally through some organization such as the U N....would quell their hatred of the West? And if it does not, then what? Another "apology tour" maybe? I don't know where you get this simplistic idea that I or others are advocating the US fund full employment across the globe. I have never advocated such an idea nor have I seen others advocate it. However at the moment the US and other countries are spending trillions on the so called war against terrorism. Don't you think that if a fraction of that amount was invested by local countries in employing their citizens they would get a far better return on it than the West is currently getting on the trillions it's wasting on unwinnable wars? And don't you agree that if many of those fighting in the ranks of terrorist groups had jobs and a measure of economic security most of them would much rather provide for their families than fight?

thishereboi -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/5/2015 6:34:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle However at the moment the US and other countries are spending trillions on the so called war against terrorism. Don't you think that if a fraction of that amount was invested by local countries in employing their citizens they would get a far better return on it than the West is currently getting on the trillions it's wasting on unwinnable wars? And don't you agree that if many of those fighting in the ranks of terrorist groups had jobs and a measure of economic security most of them would much rather provide for their families than fight? That's not a bad idea. I can think of a lot of better things we could be using that money on. So tell me, how do you propose getting those local countries to invest their cash into employing their citizens?

tweakabelle -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/5/2015 6:52:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle However at the moment the US and other countries are spending trillions on the so called war against terrorism. Don't you think that if a fraction of that amount was invested by local countries in employing their citizens they would get a far better return on it than the West is currently getting on the trillions it's wasting on unwinnable wars? And don't you agree that if many of those fighting in the ranks of terrorist groups had jobs and a measure of economic security most of them would much rather provide for their families than fight? That's not a bad idea. I can think of a lot of better things we could be using that money on. So tell me, how do you propose getting those local countries to invest their cash into employing their citizens? I am glad to hear that you approve of the principle. Answering your question requires detailed knowledge of local conditions and needs, knowledge that I don't possess. Here's one idea: It has always struck me that destroying the opium crop in Afghanistan is a misguided policy. If instead the Govt bought it off the farmers, the farmers would be better off, having productive cash crops instead of devastated fields, relations between the central Govt and the villagers would improve, decreasing local support for the Taliban, the Taliban and black markets would be deprived of the flow of opium and hence income from the heroin trade so it seems win win to me.

thishereboi -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/5/2015 7:34:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle However at the moment the US and other countries are spending trillions on the so called war against terrorism. Don't you think that if a fraction of that amount was invested by local countries in employing their citizens they would get a far better return on it than the West is currently getting on the trillions it's wasting on unwinnable wars? And don't you agree that if many of those fighting in the ranks of terrorist groups had jobs and a measure of economic security most of them would much rather provide for their families than fight? That's not a bad idea. I can think of a lot of better things we could be using that money on. So tell me, how do you propose getting those local countries to invest their cash into employing their citizens? I am glad to hear that you approve of the principle. Answering your question requires detailed knowledge of local conditions and needs, knowledge that I don't possess. Here's one idea: It has always struck me that destroying the opium crop in Afghanistan is a misguided policy. If instead the Govt bought it off the farmers, the farmers would be better off, having productive cash crops instead of devastated fields, relations between the central Govt and the villagers would improve, decreasing local support for the Taliban, the Taliban and black markets would be deprived of the flow of opium and hence income from the heroin trade so it seems win win to me. That is also not a bad idea. So how do you propose we get their governments to do that? You seem to have several good ideas for these countries to help themselves but unless you can come up with a way to get them to implement them I am not sure how it's going to help.

igor2003 -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/5/2015 9:10:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle However at the moment the US and other countries are spending trillions on the so called war against terrorism. Don't you think that if a fraction of that amount was invested by local countries in employing their citizens they would get a far better return on it than the West is currently getting on the trillions it's wasting on unwinnable wars? And don't you agree that if many of those fighting in the ranks of terrorist groups had jobs and a measure of economic security most of them would much rather provide for their families than fight? I read this and somehow it didn't exactly sit too well in my mind, so here are a few of my thoughts right off the top of my head. it could well be that after I think about it a while I may look at it differently, but for now, here goes... First, yes, the U.S. (I won't even try to speak about what other countries are doing) is spending trillions of dollars on "The War on Terrorism." The way you, and many others, put it, it almost sounds like you think the trillions of dollars just disappear. They don't. Those trillions of dollars are being spent on equipment, both large and small, for the troops. It is being spent to clothe and feed the troops. It is being spent on munitions. And on and on. Those items don't just magically appear as the trillions of dollars disappear. The dollars go to pay workers to build, grow, assemble, transport, and provide all of those things the troops need. So aren't the dollars already providing those jobs you speak of? I can only assume that other countries are doing similar things with the money they spend. Now, let's say that the dollars that are going to factory workers, farmers, assembly workers, railroads and trucks for the transportation of goods, etc. etc. would instead go to those terrorists to get them to stop being terrorists. What will they be paid to do? Without the war there won't be all those factory, assembly, and transportation jobs. Will their governments pay them to dig ditches, then fill them back in? And for what...minimum pay? Or, will they instead go ahead and join ISIS or some other terrorist organization where their food and lodging needs will be met, and they are able to do some altruistic and (to them) religious fulfilling thing like kill the infidels and spread Islam? I would love to see terrorism stopped through some peaceful means. Right now I'm just not seeing how what you propose would work. Like I say, when I have some more time I'll think about it some more and see if I still feel the same way.

Zonie63 -> RE: ARE YOU SCARED, BOOBY? (3/5/2015 10:55:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Honest? Just how honest would you have us be? Honest about our intentions. Honest about why we have military forces actively operating in the region. Hell, the American people have been asking for honesty from their government for a long time now, yet they never get it. I know it's a tall order to ask politicians to be honest, but if all else seems to fail, why not give it a shot? It couldn't make things any worse than they already are. quote: Would you like us to tell them we font have jobs for people who declare no homeland other than the "Islamic State"? Where is that anyway? Does it have borders? Are cartographers at work even now mapping it out? I didn't say anything about jobs, but when you come down to it, that's exactly what the US is promising the world, founded in the belief that the world can be made into a stable, peaceful, global free market where there will be jobs, prosperity, and opportunity for all. As far as "Islamic State" is concerned, they are a faction which merged from several factions overlapping into two neighboring countries, both of which are in a state of civil war. The borders of Syria and Iraq are still there, although there are maps available which show the main locations and cities held by ISIS. quote: People who don't have as high of a tolerance for bullshit as we do? Please...they See rape as a bullshit lie on a woman's part and punish the woman for it. They see stealing...Except by themselves of course...as a bullshit way of not working and/or as taking something that does not belong to you and cut off your hands for it. They see it as O.k. to mutilate young girls to support their bullshit claim that women are not supposed to enjoy sex. They kill...to this DAY...others in support of the bullshit notion that their way is the only true fucking way and the rest of us are infidels. I'm not going to defend what they do, but strictly speaking, wouldn't it be correctly seen as hypocritical on our part that we're friends and allies with a regime like Saudi Arabia's and other countries which still engage in these practices? It would be one thing if we opposed them on principles like this, but then we're jumping into bed with them at the same time. That's the problem here, and it's understandable that they would see this as a weakness of the West that they can exploit. We can't condemn these practices while showing friendship and approval of the regimes which carry them out. I never said that these were were the ideal societies or governments to live under. All I was doing was making a suggestion as to how we can deal with this most difficult and complicated mess we've gotten ourselves into. You asked why they hated the West so much and what we can do about it. You may not like the answer, and it may also be quite true that the West has hated Islam for quite some time, too (for many of the same reasons you've outlined above). We've hated each other for over a millennium, so maybe we're way past the point of asking "why." I would only suggest that we can let them do the hating, while we can view the situation logically and not give in to emotions. quote: You never answered my question or ones similar asked of you...instead, you came back, like many who loathe the country and civilization we live in with reasons why it is all our fault and none of theirs. So, I am going to ask again...do you REALLY think us giving them money will quell their hatred for us? But I did answer that question at the very top of my post. The very first sentence read: "I don't think money is really the answer here." How much more clear could I have been? But if that wasn't clear enough, I will say it more plainly: No, I do not think giving them money will quell their hatred for us. But by the same token, I don't believe that using money to bribe and prop up puppet governments and bogus monarchies is really the answer here either. You ask these questions as if in a vacuum, yet you're failing to consider what we've been doing already and just how much fucking money we've already spent on our adventurist policies and crusades against evil empires, axes of evil, or whatever other dark, demonic forces lurk out there. In all honesty, I don't loathe the country or our civilization, but I also don't hold any illusions as to how it came about or the methods used to maintain it. I don't believe in blind patriotism or myths about who and what we are. The bottom line is, I want us to be able to come out of this in one piece. I think there are many great things about our country and civilization, and I want us to survive and flourish and go on for many centuries to come. It's for that very reason that I strongly oppose risking it all on some mad crusade in the Middle East. quote: And I'll add one...should we expect something for that money...or is a quelling of their bloodthirsty and hatred enough for you? Well, as I said, we've been doing that all along. How do you think we've been able to operate in the region thus far? Egypt received a lot of US aid after normalizing relations with Israel and falling within the US fold. Other governments in the region have been bought off and are friendly to US interests. And then there's all that money we pay at the pump. I've often wondered about the money spent on all these military operations we've had in the Middle East and whether or not we're getting anything in return. Obviously, that doesn't seem to work to quell their hatred or thirst for blood. So, with military spending, foreign aid to these nations and other assistance, along with the oil interests - that's an awful lot of money going into all of this. Are we getting anything in return for all the money we've already spent? As I said, I don't think the answer is money. I don't think sending them money or offering them jobs is going to work at this point, at least not for those who are already there and fighting. I'm not even sure if there's any settlement or offer we could even make to them at this point, since their war is tied in with two different civil wars in Syria and Iraq - some of which is the result of our own actions in the region, at least concerning Iraq. Our problem with Syria's government is another matter. In any case, it's a complicated mess that we can not solve with money.

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