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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 11:08:17 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
But supremacy and slavery are very different things, so it's not useful to give one as an example of the other.


Consent vs. "consent" is the issue I'm trying to illuminate. If you're hung up on slavery, pick just about anything else that goes on around here:

consensual "rape" vs. "consensual" rape (this threads going on right now)
"forced" bi vs. forced "bi"
consensual "restraint" vs. "consensual" restraint
and so on to ad nauseum....

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 11:30:41 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
But...why can't she hold the viewpoint that men are better at leading relationships? Not just hers...but relationships in general.

And why does that belief carry any more danger to the outside world than a belief in the rightness of a D/s relationship?


It seems to me that sexism is still more acceptable than other forms of prejudice around here, to the point that a number of people don't even see it. As such I have an exercise that might make things more clear, take these pro-gender bias arguments, cross out men and women and write in....let's say white and black.

Like this:
[̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶]̶O̶R̶I̶G̶I̶N̶A̶L̶:̶ ̶ ̶C̶r̶e̶a̶t̶i̶v̶e̶D̶o̶m̶i̶n̶a̶n̶t̶
But...why can't she hold the viewpoint that m̶e̶n̶ whites are better at leading relationships? Not just hers...but relationships in general.

And why does that belief carry any more danger to the outside world than a belief in the rightness of a D/s relationship?
[̶/̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶]̶

Now are you able to immediately articulate the harm? If so just take your response, cross out black and white, write in men and women and you'll be where we are.

Sheesh...I KNEW someone would come along and take it to the degree of silliness.

We're not talking racial beliefs here GS, we are speaking about relationships between two people. But even at that...and I know I'm taking a chance here by saying this...are you telling me that people can no longer choose whether or not they become involved in an interracial relationship? That the OP or any other woman...no matter what color...cannot choose a partner of their same race or another race as a preference?

I have seen female submissive profiles in which the submissive ( white)stated that she PREFERRED a BLACK dominant. He'll, I even communicated with one who would love to play casually with me but...in her relationship...prefers to be led by a man who is BLACK. When we spoke of this, she noted that she is into male supremacy and...in today's world...believes black men are better relationship leaders. Now then, if she's not forcing that belief onto me or anyone else in her circle...if she is therefore able to divorce herself from THAT belief just as she is from her belief in a D/s structured relationship...in order to interact with the rest of the world, how is she harming ANYONE?

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 3/18/2015 12:13:53 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 11:41:09 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Sheesh...I KNEW someone would come along and take it to the degree of silliness.



Honestly, with the word "Supremacy" being bandied about, my money was on Godwin's Law.



Heinrich Himmler

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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 11:47:40 AM   
tiggerspoohbear


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Status: offline 		I was thinking more along the lines of Murphy's Law. I am me. You are you. Believe what you want, leave my beliefs out of it. POINT. FINAL. BATON. As is said in good old French Canadian!


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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 11:55:57 AM   
NookieNotes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
But...why can't she hold the viewpoint that men are better at leading relationships? Not just hers...but relationships in general.

And why does that belief carry any more danger to the outside world than a belief in the rightness of a D/s relationship?


It seems to me that sexism is still more acceptable than other forms of prejudice around here, to the point that a number of people don't even see it. As such I have an exercise that might make things more clear, take these pro-gender bias arguments, cross out men and women and write in....let's say white and black.

Like this:
[̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶]̶O̶R̶I̶G̶I̶N̶A̶L̶:̶ ̶ ̶C̶r̶e̶a̶t̶i̶v̶e̶D̶o̶m̶i̶n̶a̶n̶t̶
But...why can't she hold the viewpoint that m̶e̶n̶ whites are better at leading relationships? Not just hers...but relationships in general.

And why does that belief carry any more danger to the outside world than a belief in the rightness of a D/s relationship?
[̶/̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶]̶

Now are you able to immediately articulate the harm? If so just take your response, cross out black and white, write in men and women and you'll be where we are.

Sheesh...I KNEW someone would come along and take it to the degree of silliness.


Seems to be going around right now.

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(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 12:40:58 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
We're not talking racial beliefs here GS, we are speaking about relationships between two people.

Yes, we're not talking racist, we're talking sexist. My point being that making sweeping generalizations about leadership qualifications based on skin color or tits both constitute prejudice. Sexism vs. racism is simply a specification as to the type of prejudice being discussed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
But even at that...and I know I'm taking a chance here by saying this...are you telling me that people can no longer choose whether or not they become involved in an interracial relationship?

No, by virtue of me never having said anything even remotely like that, you should be able to determine that I'm not telling you that.

Also by me explicitly stating that I'm cool with M/f earlier in the thread. Then there's my being in a M/f relationship....that might be a clue as well



I'm not telling you that M/f isn't right for some relationships, I AM saying that claiming men are better at leading in general is sexist.
I'm not telling you that WHITE/black isn't right for some relationships, I AM saying that claiming Caucasians are better at leading in general is racist.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 1:02:48 PM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
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From: Dante's Inferno
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
We're not talking racial beliefs here GS, we are speaking about relationships between two people.

Yes, we're not talking racist, we're talking sexist. My point being that making sweeping generalizations about leadership qualifications based on skin color or tits both constitute prejudice. Sexism vs. racism is simply a specification as to the type of prejudice being discussed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
But even at that...and I know I'm taking a chance here by saying this...are you telling me that people can no longer choose whether or not they become involved in an interracial relationship?

No, by virtue of me never having said anything even remotely like that, you should be able to determine that I'm not telling you that.

Also by me explicitly stating that I'm cool with M/f earlier in the thread. Then there's my being in a M/f relationship....that might be a clue as well



I'm not telling you that M/f isn't right for some relationships, I AM saying that claiming men are better at leading in general is sexist.
I'm not telling you that WHITE/black isn't right for some relationships, I AM saying that claiming Caucasians are better at leading in general is racist.


LOL, wow really? Some white women believe the BBC is "Supreme". Some black women believe her "White Master" is "Supreme". Why are you so concerned about this in the context of people's sexuality? Some people like being owned, totally and completely. It happens in the world, geez...

< Message edited by GoddessManko -- 3/18/2015 1:03:12 PM >

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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 1:47:39 PM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		We aren't concerned about what one person thinks is right for their relationship.

We are concerned about what one person thinks is right for all relationships.
And in my opinion both of those things ARE racist. I'm not concerned about it- but they ARE racist.
Just as this belief system IS sexist.

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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 1:54:09 PM   
UnholyBear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

We aren't concerned about what one person thinks is right for their relationship.

We are concerned about what one person thinks is right for all relationships.
And in my opinion both of those things ARE racist. I'm not concerned about it- but they ARE racist.
Just as this belief system IS sexist.



You tell em swifty!

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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 2:20:01 PM   
GoddessManko


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From: Dante's Inferno
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UnholyBear


quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

We aren't concerned about what one person thinks is right for their relationship.

We are concerned about what one person thinks is right for all relationships.
And in my opinion both of those things ARE racist. I'm not concerned about it- but they ARE racist.
Just as this belief system IS sexist.



You tell em swifty!


Neither of your positions make any sense as we have been talking about this as an extension to people's sexualities. In that case their beliefs have little to nothing to do with you as a random individual.

< Message edited by GoddessManko -- 3/18/2015 2:40:21 PM >

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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 2:24:48 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

If a submissive lady gives herself to a submissive (or 'nilla) man, they run the risk of that guy not viewing relationships (generally; not each specific relationship, per se) the same way that she does. If her partner won't lead, how can she submit? I would go so far as to say that a submissive expects leadership from a dominant. You know what they say about a person that allows themselves to be led by a fool?



That's true, and I would not find it fulfilling, myself. I'm much too fond of actually feeling control. But I am quite certain that there are women out there who purposefully submit to their husbands and their husbands are none the wiser about it. In my opinion, it's probably the ultimate form of submission. A woman submits to her partner, but doesn't ever turn his attention to the fact that she's doing so because the attention isn't on her and her needs, but his.

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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 2:31:21 PM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
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From: Dante's Inferno
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

If a submissive lady gives herself to a submissive (or 'nilla) man, they run the risk of that guy not viewing relationships (generally; not each specific relationship, per se) the same way that she does. If her partner won't lead, how can she submit? I would go so far as to say that a submissive expects leadership from a dominant. You know what they say about a person that allows themselves to be led by a fool?



That's true, and I would not find it fulfilling, myself. I'm much too fond of actually feeling control. But I am quite certain that there are women out there who purposefully submit to their husbands and their husbands are none the wiser about it. In my opinion, it's probably the ultimate form of submission. A woman submits to her partner, but doesn't ever turn his attention to the fact that she's doing so because the attention isn't on her and her needs, but his.



Precisely. In the case of my friends who don't realize their masculine energy permeates a room, they do things that are fundamentally personality traits but unlike many on this site, don't put a label on it or go into it full throttle with willful intent.
It is also true that many submissive males acknowledge not only that they are not willing to lead but they are incapable of it and require feminine leadership.

< Message edited by GoddessManko -- 3/18/2015 2:32:44 PM >

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 2:39:17 PM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
But...why can't she hold the viewpoint that men are better at leading relationships? Not just hers...but relationships in general.

And why does that belief carry any more danger to the outside world than a belief in the rightness of a D/s relationship?


It seems to me that sexism is still more acceptable than other forms of prejudice around here, to the point that a number of people don't even see it. As such I have an exercise that might make things more clear, take these pro-gender bias arguments, cross out men and women and write in....let's say white and black.

Like this:
[̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶]̶O̶R̶I̶G̶I̶N̶A̶L̶:̶ ̶ ̶C̶r̶e̶a̶t̶i̶v̶e̶D̶o̶m̶i̶n̶a̶n̶t̶
But...why can't she hold the viewpoint that m̶e̶n̶ whites are better at leading relationships? Not just hers...but relationships in general.

And why does that belief carry any more danger to the outside world than a belief in the rightness of a D/s relationship?
[̶/̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶]̶

Now are you able to immediately articulate the harm? If so just take your response, cross out black and white, write in men and women and you'll be where we are.


Harm?

Because I think something?



(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 2:42:51 PM   
DerangedUnit


Posts: 660
Joined: 2/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

If a submissive lady gives herself to a submissive (or 'nilla) man, they run the risk of that guy not viewing relationships (generally; not each specific relationship, per se) the same way that she does. If her partner won't lead, how can she submit? I would go so far as to say that a submissive expects leadership from a dominant. You know what they say about a person that allows themselves to be led by a fool?



That's true, and I would not find it fulfilling, myself. I'm much too fond of actually feeling control. But I am quite certain that there are women out there who purposefully submit to their husbands and their husbands are none the wiser about it. In my opinion, it's probably the ultimate form of submission. A woman submits to her partner, but doesn't ever turn his attention to the fact that she's doing so because the attention isn't on her and her needs, but his.



That can also turn into a sort of forced dominance.... like in my little sisters case. All the girls in our family (except me )get married at 18 and start popping out babies, will do anything for their husbands to a destructive degree.... then after they get left for the younger model they do a complete 180. Anyways my sisters fiance is completely submissive, yet she has such a built in image of what men are supposed to be because of how we grew up that she cant realize why he wont pick up the rains... so she makes all the money, does all the chores, comforts him and her registry is already full of baby stuff... she thinks if she just shows him what he's supposed to be he'll catch up and start feeling weak if he cant pull his own weight... but that isn't the case.

I think most people have an ideal vision for a relationship, not so often does the belief match the action. As long as people aren't trying to force people to live by their standards of ideal, it shouldn't matter. People see how you act, not how you think.


< Message edited by DerangedUnit -- 3/18/2015 2:48:45 PM >

(in reply to Kaliko)
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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 2:49:50 PM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

I think most people have an ideal vision for a relationship, not so often does the belief match the action. As long as people aren't trying to force people to live by their standards of ideal, it shouldn't matter. People see how you act, not how you think.



Exactly.

(in reply to DerangedUnit)
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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 2:54:26 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
We're not talking racial beliefs here GS, we are speaking about relationships between two people.

Yes, we're not talking racist, we're talking sexist. My point being that making sweeping generalizations about leadership qualifications based on skin color or tits both constitute prejudice. Sexism vs. racism is simply a specification as to the type of prejudice being discussed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
But even at that...and I know I'm taking a chance here by saying this...are you telling me that people can no longer choose whether or not they become involved in an interracial relationship?

No, by virtue of me never having said anything even remotely like that, you should be able to determine that I'm not telling you that.

Also by me explicitly stating that I'm cool with M/f earlier in the thread. Then there's my being in a M/f relationship....that might be a clue as well



I'm not telling you that M/f isn't right for some relationships, I AM saying that claiming men are better at leading in general is sexist.
I'm not telling you that WHITE/black isn't right for some relationships, I AM saying that claiming Caucasians are better at leading in general is racist.
Noted that you took my example of Black leading white and turned it into White leading black. Was that being politically correct or are you saying that it is only racist if that belief is held in White led relationships?

Perhaps part of the problem comes in the fact that we are dealing with RACIST and SEXIST beliefs within a person's mind and relationships. Can racISM and sexISM come from racIST and sexIST beliefs? Sure they can. But the belief that many seem to be struggling with on here is that this belief system, more so than a belief in the D/s system as the best way to go or the Gorean way of life as the way to go, must bleed over into life outside the home. It can but it does not have to.






< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 3/18/2015 2:56:40 PM >

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RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 5:24:08 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

Harm?

Because I think something?



About a year ago (or so) there was a thread where a group of people tried to say that if I think about a beautiful lady for more than three (or five, I forget) seconds, I've "molested" her.

Funny, them, thinking me a pervert isn't harmful to me, at all ... Hmmmm ....



Michael

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 5:30:01 PM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

Harm?

Because I think something?



About a year ago (or so) there was a thread where a group of people tried to say that if I think about a beautiful lady for more than three (or five, I forget) seconds, I've "molested" her.

Funny, them, thinking me a pervert isn't harmful to me, at all ... Hmmmm ....



Michael


The thing that worries me too when you put people's relationship in the context of an "ism" is where (as suggested earlier) darker forms of play are actually having criminal/lascivious intent. Pet play, little play, rape play. It really makes those things ugly for me and I don't like that. Can't people just have their sexual/relationship preference and for it to be OK? I have no idea but I agree with others that now it's just going in pointless circles because someone can't accept being wrong.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

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Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 6:53:08 PM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		Posting it on a message board in public is, in my opinion, an action beyond "just thinking it"- and thusly- yes...open to criticism of any kind. Which is why I'm NOT addressing those questions.

If I came in here and said "I believe male rape should be legal. But I swear up and down its never effected my day to day life and I've never been involved with actual male rape- so who cares cause I just think it! Its an extension of my sexuality and its a kink! and its not role play!" I'm pretty damn sure I'd hear about all the reasons that opinion/belief was totally fucked.

And that is what I hear here- because...I'm still not sure if we're discussing a belief system or a role play scenario because BOTH have been brought up in this thread.

And you're allowed to think what you want- but be ready to hear my opinion on it- because unfortunately for all of us that shit cuts both ways.



OP- I'm still confused. But I kinda get you now. I actually don't really have a problem with Male Led Relationships, I do have a problem with male supremacy as a belief. If calling it this works for you- I think thats sorta fine- but I do think it really is muddying the waters and causing a lot of confusion. Maybe its my own comprehension- I'm not so egotistical to think it isn't- but I think I need it presented in very clear and concise terms for me to understand it.

To quote Galaxy Quest "Explain it to me as you would a child..."

I suppose I can agree to disagree. I've said my piece on this and maybe I'll come back and reread in a few days and understand better. Please, if you feel so inclined to explain it without all these interruptions- my inbox is open- I might even cmail you with some questions when I sort this out.



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Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Bit Controversial - Consensual Male Supremacy? - 3/18/2015 7:17:31 PM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline 		Surely you understand the difference between engaging in a discussion about the topic (and therefore, yes, inviting debate) versus what my questions were actually about: that anyone in my day to day life should have any say over what I think of them and why.

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