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RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 10:01:06 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		No, that is not the inherent reason. Never was, never will be.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 10:02:31 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
Enforcement has failed -- why do you want to double down and spend even more money on it?

(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 10:38:26 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Enforcement has failed -- why do you want to double down and spend even more money on it?

Why do you want open borders? The Indians tried that and see were it got them.
We might want to try enforcing the border before we say it has failed.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/12/2015 10:39:07 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 10:42:22 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		And we do that by going into corporations and arresting everyone and fining and jailing them, where illegal aliens are found to work.

We have had the US Border Patrol since 1924. How much time you thinking of giving it, how much money? What efficiency rate we shooting for?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 10:56:23 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Not really any of my business but how are you guys going to deal with this issue without offering some way that illegals can regularise their situations?

Does anyone seriously suggest that it is possible to deport 11 million or so?

To your credit at least you guys are having this debate unlike here where the topic of asylum seekers touches every red neck nerve in the Australian psyche.

_____________________________



(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 11:20:30 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Not really any of my business but how are you guys going to deal with this issue without offering some way that illegals can regularise their situations?

Does anyone seriously suggest that it is possible to deport 11 million or so?

To your credit at least you guys are having this debate unlike here where the topic of asylum seekers touches every red neck nerve in the Australian psyche.

I have offered a suggestion repeatedly.
Allow citizenship to families were the male members of the appropriate age (17 to 35) sign up as infantry for 8 years. They and the families are granted provisional citizenship till they complete the term. They would be paid at a lower rate than the citizens who sign up (for example they get paid as if they were two pay grades lower than their actual grade). This would accomplish three things.
A It would provide a path to citizenship
B It would make them earn their citizenship rather than just bumping them ahead of people who have obeyed the law.
C It would reduce the strain on the defense budget.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/12/2015 11:21:20 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 11:26:02 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		What is two pay grades below a private 'e nothing'? And that won't work, we have actual laws in this country.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 11:30:03 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		To some extent this is being done. Always has. I had a boss who got his citizenship before ever entering the US. He joined the Army, got his basic overseas, served 4 years, passed the test, and went before a fed judge overseas. He retired from the Army in the late 70's.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 11:31:02 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		FR

Supplement
Everyone could start at an e1.
Or since this would take a new law they could create two lower pay grades for the "special" enlistees.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 11:31:58 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, a standing mexican army, thats gonna be constitutional. Won't make the 14th. How about the medical doctors, they stay butterbars for 8 years?


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/12/2015 11:32:20 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 11:36:21 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

To some extent this is being done. Always has. I had a boss who got his citizenship before ever entering the US. He joined the Army, got his basic overseas, served 4 years, passed the test, and went before a fed judge overseas. He retired from the Army in the late 70's.

Yes I know about that program, this would be an expansion of it.
One difference would be that they would have to choose between this and deportation.
Two it would be greatly expanded.
The officers would have to be legitimate citizens, and would the administrative and medical people.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 11:39:38 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Great program, here you and your family can be an American citizen if we can shovel shit at you and never pay you for eight years, we call that program, 8 years a slave.

I am sure it will deliver us some quality, productive, loyal American citizens. (but those guys wouldn't vote republican, lol)

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 12:34:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

To some extent this is being done. Always has. I had a boss who got his citizenship before ever entering the US. He joined the Army, got his basic overseas, served 4 years, passed the test, and went before a fed judge overseas. He retired from the Army in the late 70's.

And he did everything legally.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 12:52:22 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		LOL The Army times and this site reports that Elephants make good bomb detection devices. http://800whistleblower.com/bomb-sniffing-elephants-could-help-military-id-explosives-2/# Wonder if they might work well in people crossing the border? LOL

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 12:53:15 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		You wouldnt want to get close to them, that is a lot of steak hitting you in the head when they go off.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 2:02:08 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
No, the key phrase in your untutored parsing of wiki rather than the law is: 1878.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385
^^^that is the posse comitatus law as it exists in 2015.

The more inclusive restrictions are at:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/32/182.6#a_1_iii

One just might finagle the point on posse comitatus if the border abutted federal lands.


Isn't "posse comitatus" the use of military personnel by a State to enforce their laws? In the case of Border Patrols, that's a Federal agency enforcing Federal laws.

I have MN on block, so I'm "not allowed" to respond directly to his posts.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 2:05:09 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Not really any of my business but how are you guys going to deal with this issue without offering some way that illegals can regularise their situations?
Does anyone seriously suggest that it is possible to deport 11 million or so?
To your credit at least you guys are having this debate unlike here where the topic of asylum seekers touches every red neck nerve in the Australian psyche.

I have offered a suggestion repeatedly.
Allow citizenship to families were the male members of the appropriate age (17 to 35) sign up as infantry for 8 years. They and the families are granted provisional citizenship till they complete the term. They would be paid at a lower rate than the citizens who sign up (for example they get paid as if they were two pay grades lower than their actual grade). This would accomplish three things.
A It would provide a path to citizenship
B It would make them earn their citizenship rather than just bumping them ahead of people who have obeyed the law.
C It would reduce the strain on the defense budget.


I don't agree with the provision that they be paid a lower rate, but I do think they should get expedited immigration proceedings if they serve honorably.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 2:14:28 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
No, the key phrase in your untutored parsing of wiki rather than the law is: 1878.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385
^^^that is the posse comitatus law as it exists in 2015.

The more inclusive restrictions are at:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/32/182.6#a_1_iii

One just might finagle the point on posse comitatus if the border abutted federal lands.


Isn't "posse comitatus" the use of military personnel by a State to enforce their laws? In the case of Border Patrols, that's a Federal agency enforcing Federal laws.

I have MN on block, so I'm "not allowed" to respond directly to his posts.




Nope. Good you have me on block, then you don't have to learn the realities.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 5:37:12 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Not really any of my business but how are you guys going to deal with this issue without offering some way that illegals can regularise their situations?
Does anyone seriously suggest that it is possible to deport 11 million or so?
To your credit at least you guys are having this debate unlike here where the topic of asylum seekers touches every red neck nerve in the Australian psyche.

I have offered a suggestion repeatedly.
Allow citizenship to families were the male members of the appropriate age (17 to 35) sign up as infantry for 8 years. They and the families are granted provisional citizenship till they complete the term. They would be paid at a lower rate than the citizens who sign up (for example they get paid as if they were two pay grades lower than their actual grade). This would accomplish three things.
A It would provide a path to citizenship
B It would make them earn their citizenship rather than just bumping them ahead of people who have obeyed the law.
C It would reduce the strain on the defense budget.


I don't agree with the provision that they be paid a lower rate, but I do think they should get expedited immigration proceedings if they serve honorably.


I would be ok with that, I would say though that they had to join combat arms.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: US Military in Border Security - 3/12/2015 5:39:17 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Not really any of my business but how are you guys going to deal with this issue without offering some way that illegals can regularise their situations?
Does anyone seriously suggest that it is possible to deport 11 million or so?
To your credit at least you guys are having this debate unlike here where the topic of asylum seekers touches every red neck nerve in the Australian psyche.

I have offered a suggestion repeatedly.
Allow citizenship to families were the male members of the appropriate age (17 to 35) sign up as infantry for 8 years. They and the families are granted provisional citizenship till they complete the term. They would be paid at a lower rate than the citizens who sign up (for example they get paid as if they were two pay grades lower than their actual grade). This would accomplish three things.
A It would provide a path to citizenship
B It would make them earn their citizenship rather than just bumping them ahead of people who have obeyed the law.
C It would reduce the strain on the defense budget.

I don't agree with the provision that they be paid a lower rate, but I do think they should get expedited immigration proceedings if they serve honorably.

I would be ok with that, I would say though that they had to join combat arms.


I'd be okay with that, even if they never see actual combat time (like peacetime service).


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 40
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