RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (Full Version)

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BitaTruble -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 1:00:38 AM)

~fr~

Wedding cake - presented and eaten 'after' a wedding ceremony has already taken place so, forgive my ignorance but since a given couple would already be married how does baking a
cake fit into the grand scheme again? Do the same people who refuse to sell cakes to same-sex couples also refuse to sell cakes to people with tattoos because it's around the same place
with the same sort of sin factor going on as far as source material goes. Speaking of sins.. didn't that Jesus guy die for those anyway, so.. we're all good right?

I say.. let them bake cake and if you really, truly, believe that to be a sin, ask Jesus to forgive you. Just tell him you were loving your neighbor or turning the other cheek or
something like that. The guy washed the feet of Judas.. I doubt he'd draw a line at Betty Crocker.

Oh.. I did read the actual bill. Interesting wording that.




JVoV -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 1:16:10 AM)

You have no idea what sort of decadence homosexuals are capable of when sweet buttercream icing comes into play.




BitaTruble -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 1:36:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

You have no idea what sort of decadence homosexuals are capable of when sweet buttercream icing comes into play.

I am nothing if not open-minded! Do tell.. with small words and pics attached, please. I'm slow and blind so don't type more than
about 25 or 30 words a minute. I'm not asking because I'm a perv or anything.. heaven forbid! I went to culinary school and my
understanding is that most wedding cakes are made with fondant and royal icing because the melt factor of buttercream is much
lower and won't stand up as well so it's purely from a science interest that I ask at all..

yep..

.. that's my story.. well, it's a story in any event. ;)





crazyml -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 2:00:36 AM)

Excellent point, and well made!




Aylee -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 2:58:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I've been trying (desperately) to come up with an analogy that the opposition to this law might understand.

I realize that there's a whole lot of anti-Semites around here, lately but this would be tantamount to me, walking into a kosher deli, demanding a ham sandwich, not getting it and deciding to either bring suit or get the government involved with me, claiming that I was discriminated (ETA: Oooops! On this thread, that should be "discriminanted") against because I'm a gentile.

It allows the deli to say: "It's not that he's a gentile. It's that what he is asking would force us to violate our religious tenet(s)"



Michael



I agree with this. And taking it back to the bakery scenario, at what point does baking a wedding cake go against the religion of the owner?


If I recall correctly from the lawsuits, it is not "baking the cake" that is the problem. It is being forced to create art that is the problem.

They are happy to sell any ready made, off the shelf cakes to anyone.

Designing and decorating a wedding cake is a form of artistry.

Why should someone be forced to create a piece of art that violates their beliefs.

They also have to show up and put the cake together. Which may force them to attend a religious service that violates their religious beliefs.




JVoV -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 4:47:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I've been trying (desperately) to come up with an analogy that the opposition to this law might understand.

I realize that there's a whole lot of anti-Semites around here, lately but this would be tantamount to me, walking into a kosher deli, demanding a ham sandwich, not getting it and deciding to either bring suit or get the government involved with me, claiming that I was discriminated (ETA: Oooops! On this thread, that should be "discriminanted") against because I'm a gentile.

It allows the deli to say: "It's not that he's a gentile. It's that what he is asking would force us to violate our religious tenet(s)"



Michael



I agree with this. And taking it back to the bakery scenario, at what point does baking a wedding cake go against the religion of the owner?


If I recall correctly from the lawsuits, it is not "baking the cake" that is the problem. It is being forced to create art that is the problem.

They are happy to sell any ready made, off the shelf cakes to anyone.

Designing and decorating a wedding cake is a form of artistry.

Why should someone be forced to create a piece of art that violates their beliefs.

They also have to show up and put the cake together. Which may force them to attend a religious service that violates their religious beliefs.


Except that marriage is, by legal definition, a civil ceremony. I certainly can't think of a religious ceremony of any kind that requires a legal license.




thishereboi -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 5:37:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oneechan

I just want to chime in to say, a business owner should have the right to refuse whoever they like, for any reason at all. Or no reason.

This bill is the exact opposite of tyranny.

If a gay person has a problem with it, they can either:

1. stop wearing the "I'M A HUGE FAGGOT" Tshirt and jockstrap everywhere, and dress like a normal person. if a store owner has reason to believe you're gay, you're probably being obnoxious about it
or
2. shop elsewhere, free market in action

nobody is forcing anyone to do anything, nobodys freedoms are impinged.


Drivel. These people are trashing free market principles by stopping people shopping in their stores - and you are, too, by supporting them. If you hate freedom so much, what are you doing living in a country that claims so much to support it?



You do realize that she's in the UK, right?




thishereboi -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 5:54:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Whoosh. Right over your head.

Why should discrimination be ok, if it is on religious grounds but not any other?

Is it ok to enshrine nasty backward values in a religion and then seek protection for them?

No it didn't even go over my feet. I got your point completely. What you refuse to understand is that if you force someone to violate their religious beliefs you are discriminating against them. This law does not allow for refusing to serve any gays or what ever, it allows for them to refuse a specific act which violates their religion, like demanding that the Kosher deli provide a ham sandwich.


So which specific act of baking a wedding cake, or creating a floral arrangement violates anyone's religion? There is nothing asked of business owners that they are not already in business to do.


they don't believe in gay marriage, so it shouldn't be that hard to figure out why they wouldn't want to bake a cake for one. And since I would want the very best cake I could find, I want to know up front if there is going to be a problem. With this law I know the baker is ok with serving me because no one is forcing him to smile and be nice. He is doing it because he wants my business. and because of that I have no problems supporting his.




thishereboi -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 5:58:43 AM)

I never knew it was a sin to have a tattoo. Which book is that in?




Lucylastic -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 6:06:11 AM)

Leviticus 19:28: "You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the Lord."
I think there is something similar in romans





dcnovice -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 6:13:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I never knew it was a sin to have a tattoo. Which book is that in?

Leviticus 19:28 | New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
28 You shall not make any gashes in your flesh for the dead or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:28 | King James Version (KJV)
28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:28 | Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
28 Don’t cut gashes in your flesh when someone dies or tattoo yourselves; I am Adonai.




Kirata -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 6:37:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

I never knew it was a sin to have a tattoo. Which book is that in?

Leviticus 19:28 | New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
28 You shall not make any gashes in your flesh for the dead or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:28 | King James Version (KJV)
28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:28 | Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
28 Don’t cut gashes in your flesh when someone dies or tattoo yourselves; I am Adonai.

Well then I guess it's okay as long as you're not doing it because someone died. [8D]

K.




bounty44 -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 7:07:57 AM)

from Andrew klavan, who has a different take than whats been discussed here so far:

...The law, as you probably know by now, imitates the 1993 federal RFRA, voted in nearly unanimously and signed by Bill Clinton. It seeks to prevent the state from violating your right to act on religious principles unless they can show “compelling interest.” Among its purposes is preventing gay activists from bullying, say, Christian bakers or florists into participating in gay weddings that violate their religious consciences. Nineteen other states have such laws without being boycotted. Those states have my sympathy. They must envy Indiana deeply.

I support the right of gay people to forge faithful, lifelong unions recognized by the state and respected by people of good will. Leftists do not support this, make no mistake. They only use the issue as a way to attack Christianity and heterosexual family life. If that’s not true, let’s see one of these homofascist clowns walk into a Muslim restaurant and demand Mohammed make the falafels for his wedding. They don’t do this not only because they are cowardly scum, but also because attacking Islam is no more their purpose than is the true and honorable support of gay rights. Islam is not the philosophical backbone of the American way of individual freedom that leftists so despise. Christianity and Christian thought and family are the pillars of that freedom — and that’s why the left wants to destroy them.

These leftist bullies are not good for gay people any more than feminists bullies are good for women.


I should hardly need to say this, but just for the record: freedom is a two-way street. If I am free to do something, you are free to refuse to do it or to participate in it. If the homofascists don’t seem to support that principle it’s for one simple reason: it’s that very principle they want to destroy. Gay rights are only the weapon they happen to have at hand.

Read more: http://pjmedia.com/andrewklavan/2015/03/30/religious-freedom-in-indiana/#ixzz3VyJqDJkP




Lucylastic -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 7:37:31 AM)

Wa Po Throws this into the ring
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/03/30/answering-five-questions-about-indianas-new-discrimination-law/

Indiana Gov. Mike Pence is probably feeling blindsided right about now. A strong conservative, he did what many other states have done and signed a “Religious Freedom Restoration Act,” which emphasizes that the government can’t stop people from exercising their religious consciences. Then all of a sudden there was an eruption: national news stories, talk of boycotts, big corporations halting plans for expanding in Indiana.

We’ll get to the broader societal context that has made this such a big issue in a bit, but first it would be helpful to clarify a couple of questions about the Indiana law.

1. Is this the same law as the federal RFRA and versions in other states?

The answer is no, for a couple of reasons. First, there’s the intent. When the federal RFRA was passed in 1993, no one was talking about gay marriage, and it wasn’t about how private individuals deal with each other. The law was spurred most directly by a case called Employment Division v. Smith, which concerned whether two Native American workers could get unemployment insurance after they had been fired from their jobs for taking peyote in a religious ritual. It was that kind of private religious conduct that the debate revolved around at the time.

But more importantly, the Indiana law is different from other laws in its specific provisions. It not only explicitly applies the law to for-profit businesses, it also states that individual can assert their religious beliefs “as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding.” [emphasis added] The federal law, and most of the state laws, only concern instances where the government is forcing a person to do something or not do something; the Indiana law directly covers disputes between individuals.

Weirdly, Governor Pence thinks he can just deny that the law he signed does anything of the sort, despite this clear language. “In fact, it doesn’t even apply to disputes between private individuals, unless government action is involved,” he said yesterday on ABC’s This Week. That’s completely false.



And Indianan Repubs want to clarify


http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2015/03/30/70670728/

Indiana's Republican legislative leaders said Monday they're working on adding language to a new state law to make it clear that it doesn't allow discrimination against gays and lesbians. (March 30) AP

That was fast, but needed...good for them. We shall see what happens...or will it go to the supreme court?
It will be interesting to see how this affects 2016




crazyml -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 7:38:29 AM)

That's how I read it




Kirata -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 7:51:14 AM)


I don't think that analysis quite cuts it. Based on the demographics of the United States, it is likely that the vast majority of gays, if they are religious at all, are Christian and simply very much want the recognition and acceptance of their faith community.

K.












BamaD -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 8:19:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

from Andrew klavan, who has a different take than whats been discussed here so far:

...The law, as you probably know by now, imitates the 1993 federal RFRA, voted in nearly unanimously and signed by Bill Clinton. It seeks to prevent the state from violating your right to act on religious principles unless they can show “compelling interest.” Among its purposes is preventing gay activists from bullying, say, Christian bakers or florists into participating in gay weddings that violate their religious consciences. Nineteen other states have such laws without being boycotted. Those states have my sympathy. They must envy Indiana deeply.

I support the right of gay people to forge faithful, lifelong unions recognized by the state and respected by people of good will. Leftists do not support this, make no mistake. They only use the issue as a way to attack Christianity and heterosexual family life. If that’s not true, let’s see one of these homofascist clowns walk into a Muslim restaurant and demand Mohammed make the falafels for his wedding. They don’t do this not only because they are cowardly scum, but also because attacking Islam is no more their purpose than is the true and honorable support of gay rights. Islam is not the philosophical backbone of the American way of individual freedom that leftists so despise. Christianity and Christian thought and family are the pillars of that freedom — and that’s why the left wants to destroy them.

These leftist bullies are not good for gay people any more than feminists bullies are good for women.


I should hardly need to say this, but just for the record: freedom is a two-way street. If I am free to do something, you are free to refuse to do it or to participate in it. If the homofascists don’t seem to support that principle it’s for one simple reason: it’s that very principle they want to destroy. Gay rights are only the weapon they happen to have at hand.

Read more: http://pjmedia.com/andrewklavan/2015/03/30/religious-freedom-in-indiana/#ixzz3VyJqDJkP


The key is that it copies the 93 law, and that 19 other states have basically the same law. Why go berserk over this one? None of the others ha the dire results predicted here.




bounty44 -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 8:22:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


I don't think that analysis quite cuts it. Based on the demographics of the United States, it is likely that the vast majority of gays, if they are religious at all, are Christian and simply very much want the recognition and acceptance of their faith community.

K.



I think klavan would be in agreement with that but I believe what he is saying is, there's another "element" in the conversation/protestations that are independent of the people you are referring to.







dcnovice -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 9:08:09 AM)

quote:

I support the right of gay people to forge faithful, lifelong unions recognized by the state and respected by people of good will. Leftists do not support this, make no mistake. They only use the issue as a way to attack Christianity and heterosexual family life.

Damn! He's on to us. Every gay union/wedding I've been to has really been a secret attack on Christianity. It might seem a little odd at first that they've all taken place in church, but that's part of the plot.


quote:

homofascist clowns

Yet another T-shirt possibility.




BamaD -> RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone (3/31/2015 9:10:41 AM)

FR

Why was this law great when signed by a Dem but evil when signed by a Rep.
Here we see proof of projection, we are always told "you would love it if a conservative Rep signed it you are just against it because it is a Dem"
We see here that some people are saying that because they know that's what they do.




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