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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 3:05:15 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Your rights end when you discriminate. Give me an instance where as a business open to the general public I as a customer take away any rights of yours. Then we can talk about it.

Butch



Asking me and using the law to FORCE me to go against my religion is like me, asking you and using the law to force you into a Muslim Mosque. Either way, it's trampling on a person's religious beliefs.



Michael


No one is asking you to go against your religious beliefs, they are asking you not to discriminate illegally.

You can be as homophobic as you like, you just cannot discriminate against people on the basis of their sexual orientation when you conduct business.





What about when you create art?

If you sell that art to the public,than you sell it to the public.
You can't not sell it on the basis of color ,religion or orientation......ooops ,almost forgot gender

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 4:22:58 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

What about when you create art?

That raises a peculiar hypothetical. Suppose a business specializes in wedding cakes for heterosexual Christian marriages. The cakes are available in varied styles and sizes, differently priced, but all feature the shop's signature design of male and female figurines on the top, with a paraphrase from Matthew: "He who made them at the beginning made them male and female and the two shall become one flesh."

The shop is perfectly willing to sell the cakes to anyone who wants one, gays, lesbians, Muslims, Jews. But that is the shop's signature design. Take it or leave it. Should the shop be subject to sanction for refusing to create a cake for a customer without the male and female figurines, or without the paraphrase from Matthew, on the grounds that the design is discriminatory in effect by virtue of its disparate impact?

K.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 4:47:09 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Or...you can do as Peon suggested...disregard And disrespect their beliefs by tricking them into baking you a cake, then send them a picture showing them how you disrespected and disregarded their beliefs while all the while demanding that everybody not only respect...but agree with...yours.


I wouldn't worry too much about that bit of naughtiness on my part, CD. I'm not American, not gay and not even likely to get married. On the other hand, if I were all those things, but also a bang-on Republican lover of the free market, I might send such a picture.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 7:16:45 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

FORCE me to go against my religion


I believe you are confusing a choice with a right... No one is forcing you to go in a Mosque... providing a service to a gay is not the same as giving approval to a life style... You have a choice not to lead that kind of lifestyle just as you have a choice not to engage in a business that in your view is against your religion.... BUT

Denying service that you supply to others is discrimination... That gay may live in an area where he or she has no choice in the matter... Would you deny them food or medical attention just because they are gay? Is this the Christian way... I think not.

I still have not been shown where in the Christian Bible where it says not to provide services to homosexuals... or where it says to deny sustenance to a follower of another religion. If I read it right it should be just the opposite for a good Christian.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/3/2015 7:18:34 AM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 7:18:49 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I still have not been shown where in the Christian Bible where it says not to provide services to homosexuals... or where it says to deny sustenance to a follower of another religion. If I read it right it should be just the opposite for a good Christian.

it should be just the opposite for a good Christian.

Fixed that for ya.

K.


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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 7:19:41 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Your rights end when you discriminate. Give me an instance where as a business open to the general public I as a customer take away any rights of yours. Then we can talk about it.

Butch



Asking me and using the law to FORCE me to go against my religion is like me, asking you and using the law to force you into a Muslim Mosque. Either way, it's trampling on a person's religious beliefs.



Michael


No one is asking you to go against your religious beliefs, they are asking you not to discriminate illegally.

You can be as homophobic as you like, you just cannot discriminate against people on the basis of their sexual orientation when you conduct business.





What about when you create art?

If you sell that art to the public,than you sell it to the public.
You can't not sell it on the basis of color ,religion or orientation......ooops ,almost forgot gender


What about creating it though?

Creating wedding cakes and photography (not the school picture kind or the Wal-Mart kind) are forms of art. One of the issues is that wedding cake designers are photographers are being told what kind of art to create.

Wedding cakes (typically) are just not the same thing as a 1/4 sheet birthday cake with some ribbon and sprinkles on it.

Since art is a form of speech, being required to create a certain type is a first amendment violation.

I will also note that essentially bakers and such would just need to separate the two sides of their businesses to be able to refuse customers legally.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 7:21:48 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

FORCE me to go against my religion


I believe you are confusing a choice with a right... No one is forcing you to go in a Mosque... providing a service to a gay is not the same as giving approval to a life style... You have a choice not to lead that kind of lifestyle just as you have a choice not to engage in a business that in your view is against your religion.... BUT

Denying service that you supply to others is discrimination... That gay may live in an area where he or she has no choice in the matter... Would you deny them food or medical attention just because they are gay? Is this the Christian way... I think not.

I still have not been shown where in the Christian Bible where it says not to provide services to homosexuals... or where it says to deny sustenance to a follower of another religion. If I read it right it should be just the opposite for a good Christian.

Butch



It's too late, Butch. Me and Creative Dominant and a few others have decided that you're going to live the way we want you to live and, if you refuse, we'll get the government to make a law, forcing you to do our bidding.

If the government won't make a law, we'll just threaten to set fire to your house or business or threaten your life. Then, everyone can live in harmony and tolerance. Dig?



Michael

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Profile   Post #: 547
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 7:25:18 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Thus you discover civilization...tolerance...forgiveness and charity... It would pay to remember or contemplate what is right with you and not judge your conscience with the actions of fanatics.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/3/2015 7:28:22 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 548
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 7:29:35 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Thus you discover civilization...tolerance...forgiveness and charity.

Butch



Hmmmm ... civilization, tolerance, forgiveness, and charity ... all found at the back end of threats of violence. That may seem perfect to you but I think we'd have to remove "civil" and "tolerant" and "charity". I don't see even threats of violence as any of those things.

Your mileage may vary, of course.



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 7:53:38 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Or...you can do as Peon suggested...disregard And disrespect their beliefs by tricking them into baking you a cake, then send them a picture showing them how you disrespected and disregarded their beliefs while all the while demanding that everybody not only respect...but agree with...yours.


I wouldn't worry too much about that bit of naughtiness on my part, CD. I'm not American, not gay and not even likely to get married. On the other hand, if I were all those things, but also a bang-on Republican lover of the free market, I might send such a picture.

I guess you wouldn't be the same "bang-on Republican lover of the free market" that I am, then. I'd respect their beliefs and move on to another shop.

I wouldn't pout and threaten to firebomb the shop unless I got my way in pursuit of my wants...not needs, but wants. Unless somehow, wedding cakes have become as important and as regular as equal pay equal access to employment, etc.



< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 4/3/2015 8:09:57 AM >

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 8:09:34 AM   
Sanity


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FR

Yahoo! News asks...

Should Mom-And-Pops That Forgo Gay Weddings Be Destroyed?

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Profile   Post #: 551
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 8:11:20 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Interesting reflection by a Christian pastor:

When I listen to the outcry surrounding Indiana’s new law, I hear frustration with us, Christians. The outcry isn’t about the law, it’s about us. It’s a fear that we will discriminate. And it is a fear based on a history that, whether we like it or not, is ours. We have, in no shortage of ways, broken relationships with the LGBTQ community. We have expelled our sons and daughters. We have protested them. We blamed them for the ills of society like a scapegoat. And no matter what we believe about same-sex marriage, that is wrong. Because of that, restoring relationship and trust with the LGBTQ community is on us. Even if you disagree with all I said above, restoring the relationship is on us because we are called as followers of Jesus to be ministers of reconciliation.

* * *

You see, the question now being asked of Christians is, “Will you treat us as human beings?” That’s what behind wanting a cake for a same-sex wedding. Or photographs. It isn’t shoving a lifestyle down people’s throats. It’s simply a desire to be seen as human. To be treated as human. To enjoy life as we all want to enjoy life.

For that reason, I’d bake the cake. If Jesus can make 120-180 gallons of wine for a wedding party that is already long underway and not be condoning or celebrating drunkenness, I can make a cake for a wedding that I may have some theological issues with. Truth is, we as Christians do this all the time. We bake cakes for Jewish weddings, weddings for people who divorced for non-biblical reasons, atheist weddings, and maybe even a Wiccan wedding. To choose one lifestyle we disapprove of as the one where we cannot offer services is hypocritical.

I cannot find a place in the Gospels where Jesus refuses to serve someone who has a different worldview than he does. The Samaritan woman, the Roman Centurion, the Syrophoenician woman, tax collectors, and on and on.

http://sojo.net/blogs/2015/04/02/outrage-over-rfra-might-be-fear-christians

Such beautiful sentiments. This is close to what I understand to be the core of the lessons of Jesus.

It is so sad that such a generous loving message is twisted and perverted by those whose hearts are filled with hate, while they claim to act in the name of a religion of love.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 8:14:27 AM   
Sanity


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"It is so sad that such a generous loving message is twisted and perverted by those whose hearts are filled with hate, while they claim to act in the name of a religion of love."

HIDDEN CAMERA: Gay Wedding Cake At Muslim Bakeries

http://louderwithcrowder.com/hidden-camera-gay-wedding-cake-at-muslim-bakery/#ixzz3WG9UQdX8


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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 8:34:16 AM   
BamaD


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Status: offline 		FR
The gay right path to equality is
let them eat cake?

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 8:52:23 AM   
Sanity


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It would be interesting to see video of Tweaka going around to Muslim bakeries in Tehran or Riyadh, demanding they make her a gay wedding cake

She might learn what true hate really is

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 8:54:09 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR
The gay right path to equality is
let them eat cake?



Nope. It's "Burn the mother fucker down until we get what we want (and cake is one of the things we want)!!!"



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 8:58:40 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


"It is so sad that such a generous loving message is twisted and perverted by those whose hearts are filled with hate, while they claim to act in the name of a religion of love."

HIDDEN CAMERA: Gay Wedding Cake At Muslim Bakeries

http://louderwithcrowder.com/hidden-camera-gay-wedding-cake-at-muslim-bakery/#ixzz3WG9UQdX8


Sanity my remarks were directed at a section of reactionary hate-driven 'Christians'. So I have no idea how your link connects with my post or its relevance to this thread. It seems to be just another idiotic Islamophobic contribution from someone with a long history of such posts.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 9:00:58 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Such beautiful sentiments. This is close to what I understand to be the core of the lessons of Jesus.

I thought so too.

This thread keeps bringing to mind, by way of contrast, a favorite hymn from my childhood.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 9:03:03 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


"It is so sad that such a generous loving message is twisted and perverted by those whose hearts are filled with hate, while they claim to act in the name of a religion of love."

HIDDEN CAMERA: Gay Wedding Cake At Muslim Bakeries

http://louderwithcrowder.com/hidden-camera-gay-wedding-cake-at-muslim-bakery/#ixzz3WG9UQdX8


Sanity my remarks were directed at a section of reactionary hate-driven 'Christians'. So I have no idea how your link connects with my post or its relevance to this thread. It seems to be just another idiotic Islamophobic contribution from someone with a long history of such posts.

A Christian and a Muslim do the same thing.
When we notice this it proves two things.
A Christians are hate filled.
B Anyone who notices that a Muslim does it is an Islamaphobe.

This leads me to thinking
A Both Christians and Muslims are filled with hate
or
B We have more Cristianaphobes on here than Islamaphobes.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 559
RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/3/2015 9:06:53 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


"It is so sad that such a generous loving message is twisted and perverted by those whose hearts are filled with hate, while they claim to act in the name of a religion of love."

HIDDEN CAMERA: Gay Wedding Cake At Muslim Bakeries

http://louderwithcrowder.com/hidden-camera-gay-wedding-cake-at-muslim-bakery/#ixzz3WG9UQdX8


Sanity my remarks were directed at a section of reactionary hate-driven 'Christians'. So I have no idea how your link connects with my post or its relevance to this thread. It seems to be just another idiotic Islamophobic contribution from someone with a long history of such posts.
But...let's be clear, tweak. It's only the Christians that you and others have focused on. And is it only a segment? Those Christians who truly are driven by their hatred vs those who are truly driven by their beliefs?

Sanity's first link gave examples of other places that wouldn't do a wedding cake for gays. Of course, in those cases the shops were run by people of a different race or a different faith (Muslim, Mormon). Yet the shop chosen to go into and be broadcast was run by a white Christian family. His second link was of a Muslim shop. Where's the outcry for firebombing these establishments? Where's the preaching that these actions are way less tolerant and way less hateful and way less destructive than what the shops are doing?


< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 4/3/2015 9:26:39 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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