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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 4:53:40 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Entirely up to you, but sarcasm and irony don't come across real well in text. My apologies for being thick though.


No worries, sometimes stuff goes over my head too. I could have said the pope is Jewish or bears shit on the sidewalk. PS will get it though since he thinks he is a staunch authority on just about everything, especially political correctness.

ETA: The exchanges between you and Michael are pretty much over my head.


I couldnt give a fuck about political correctness, I just dislike bigots..... go figure.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 4:56:11 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4795874/mpage_35/tm.htm#

I already posted a different link, to a proper dictionary no less.

Proper my ass. You don't get to wave the Oxford around as if it was the Bible. And perhaps you failed to notice, or hope everyone else did, that there is nothing in that definition about "hatred" and "intolerance." Which isn't to say that that meaning isn't creeping into our dictionaries. Just not all of them, yet. It will get there though, and few people will realize the degree to which the original meaning of the word has been changed and re-purposed for political effect.

K.





Agreed, the Oxford English Dictionary knows fuck all about Oxford, English or Dictionaries, because you say so.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 10:26:29 AM   
CreativeDominant


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And you might want to take a look at these, PS to understand how thick you seem when you ONLY use the dictionary. It might interest you to know that the word...as RE-defined by Weinberg in 1969...did not even appear in the Oxford into sometime after 2004.
Oh...one last side note. The AP is going to stop using the word 'homophobia'. Seems that they have finally figured out...just as they did with Islam...that a dislike or even hatred of CERTAIN tenets of being gay does not equate to an all-encompassing fear or even bigotry as the terms 'homophobia' or 'homophobe' suggest.

Q: Whenever there’s an insensitive, insulting, inhumane, or vulgar comment about homosexuals, the press describes it as homophobia. However, “homophobia” would seem to be the irrational fear of homosexuals, not the hatred of them.

A: It’s true that the noun “phobia” principally means an exaggerated or irrational fear. But when “-phobia” is a word element that’s part of another noun, it can also mean hatred of something, not just fear of it.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines “homophobia” in its usual contemporary sense as “fear or hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality.”

The adjective “homophobic” is defined by the OED as “pertaining to, characterized by, or exhibiting homophobia; hostile towards homosexuals.” And “homophobe” is “a homophobic person”—that is, someone hostile toward gay men or lesbians.

http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2013/02/homophobia.html

Critics have observed that homophobia is problematic for at least two reasons.

First, empirical research does not indicate that heterosexuals' antigay attitudes can reasonably be considered a phobia in the clinical sense. Indeed, the limited data available suggest that many heterosexuals who express hostility toward gay men and lesbians do not manifest the physiological reactions to homosexuality that are associated with other phobias (see Shields & Harriman, 1984).

Second, using homophobia implies that antigay prejudice is an individual, clinical entity rather than a social phenomenon rooted in cultural ideologies and intergroup relations. Moreover, a phobia is usually experienced as dysfunctional and unpleasant. Antigay prejudice, however, is often highly functional for the heterosexuals who manifest it.

As antigay attitudes have become increasingly central to conservative political and religious ideologies since the 1980s, these limitations have become more problematic. However, heterosexism, with its historic macro-level focus on cultural ideologies rather than individual attitudes, is not a satisfactory replacement for homophobia.


Sexual Prejudice Scientific analysis of the psychology of antigay attitudes will be facilitated by a new term. Sexual prejudice serves this purpose nicely. Broadly conceived, sexual prejudice refers to all negative attitudes based on sexual orientation, whether the target is homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual. Given the current social organization of sexuality, however, such prejudice is almost always directed at people who engage in homosexual behavior or label themselves gay, lesbian, or bisexual (Herek, 2000).
Like other types of prejudice, sexual prejudice has three principal features:

It is an attitude (i.e., an evaluation or judgment).
It is directed at a social group and its members.
It is negative, involving hostility or dislike.
Conceptualizing heterosexuals' negative attitudes toward homosexuality and bisexuality as sexual prejudice – rather than homophobia – has several advantages. First, sexual prejudice is a descriptive term. Unlike homophobia, it conveys no a priori assumptions about the origins, dynamics, and underlying motivations of antigay attitudes.

Second, the term explicitly links the study of antigay hostility with the rich tradition of social psychological research on prejudice.

Third, using the construct of sexual prejudice does not require value judgments that antigay attitudes are inherently irrational or evil.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/prej_defn.html

Still, this doesn’t mean we should throw the word about. The ‘gay lobby’ and those sympathetic with the cause of Human Rights and justice ought to be wise to the fact that it isn’t always useful to use the term homophobia. Some words close down a discussion as surely as a fullstop closes down a sentence.

http://underthesaltireflag.com/2014/07/01/homophobia-towards-a-definition/

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 4/5/2015 10:41:04 AM >

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 10:38:11 AM   
Politesub53


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You sound a bit defensive CD. Read your post slowly and try and follow what it is saying.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 11:14:02 AM   
eulero83


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FR

what does define a compelling governmental interest? without fixing on the discrimantory part of the law it opens quite a pandora box I suppose, can an islamic being denied his second third or fourth wedding? can a group of women establish a temple for the goddes ishtar? will the new marijuhana temple get it's supply necessary for it's rituals?

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 11:27:00 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

what does define a compelling governmental interest? without fixing on the discrimantory part of the law it opens quite a pandora box I suppose

Give that man a cigar.

K.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 2:39:23 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You sound a bit defensive CD. Read your post slowly and try and follow what it is saying.

Nice try at implication, PS. But you only think you know what I think. You might want to talk to Bear...or my cousins...or my friends.

But disgusted? Yeah, when a thickheaded ass tries to use one word that doesn't work adequately and then goes on to defend that word with "its in the Oxford".

Instead of just reading my post, why don't you try reading the links? I know what they...and I...said. Do you?

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 4/5/2015 2:42:09 PM >

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 3:19:02 PM   
Dvr22999874


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And this bigot really couldn't give two shits what you like or dislike PS.................SFB

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 4:13:31 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You sound a bit defensive CD. Read your post slowly and try and follow what it is saying.

Nice try at implication, PS. But you only think you know what I think. You might want to talk to Bear...or my cousins...or my friends.

But disgusted? Yeah, when a thickheaded ass tries to use one word that doesn't work adequately and then goes on to defend that word with "its in the Oxford".

Instead of just reading my post, why don't you try reading the links? I know what they...and I...said. Do you?



You are boring me now. Your link does nothing to discount Homophobic from meaning the conception most people have of it. Not once, not anywhere..... As for the OED, I think you will find all dictionaries say pretty much the same thing.

I am wondering how long you needed to search the web to try and disprove my point, one of your links is so just some blog.


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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 4:20:25 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

And this bigot really couldn't give two shits what you like or dislike PS.................SFB


If you wish to say shit for brains, why dont you just say it ?

My post wasnt aimed at you, it was aimed at Lovmuffin whose post contained a quote from you. I would hardly call you a bigot on the subject since you have clearly mentioned trying to get into gay bars.

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 5:07:15 PM   
Dvr22999874


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you could be right SFB

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 5:31:56 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Your link does nothing to discount Homophobic from meaning the conception most people have of it.

Using your superpowers, precisely what conception do "most people" have?

Would that be the first one you trotted out from Stonewall...
Homophobia is the irrational hatred, intolerance, and fear of lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) people

or the second one you linked from Oxford...
Dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people

or maybe one of these...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I think you will find all dictionaries say pretty much the same thing.

Well compared to the Oxford, Cambridge adds fear and omits prejudice:
fear and dislike of homosexuals

Merrian-Webster adds discrimination and qualifies the fear as irrational:
irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

American Heritage introduces irrational hatred, but omits prejudice and discrimination:
irrational hatred or fear of homosexuals or homosexuality

Collins swaps intense for irrational, but omits prejudice and discrimination:
intense hatred or fear of homosexuals or homosexuality

So, those are all "pretty much the same thing"? Bear in mind this is an intelligence test.

K


< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/5/2015 6:14:52 PM >

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 5:54:01 PM   
bounty44


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this might have already been said (its almost too much to keep up with everything) but its been my experience "homophobia" is pretty much anything that disagrees with what the gay lobby wants.

though at times the clinical definition of the term might be accurate, on the whole I see it like "racist"---its an attempt to shame the other side, shut down the conversation and "win" through verbal force.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 4/5/2015 5:55:38 PM >

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 6:01:01 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Oh...one last side note. The AP is going to stop using the word 'homophobia'. Seems that they have finally figured out...just as they did with Islam...that a dislike or even hatred of CERTAIN tenets of being gay does not equate to an all-encompassing fear or even bigotry as the terms 'homophobia' or 'homophobe' suggest. [Etc.]


I found that post quite interesting, CD. Myself, I always did find the term 'homophobia' a little bit suspect. I never cared about the grammarians' argument that it shouldn't mean 'fear and hatred of homosexuals' but 'fear and hatred of oneself'. It doesn't mean the latter; nobody takes it that way so the grammarians will just have to suffer.

I did, however, question the motivation behind the suffix '-phobia' in 'homophobia'. I always assumed that this was based on the idea that 'we hate what we fear' and that hatred and fear are inseparable. That view has a lot of cachet amongst depth psychologists and is a notion with some historical pedigree in literature and philosophy. And, of course, there are those many clinical studies that appear to show that some of the most tooth-gnashing gay-haters are actually more than a bit gay underneath, themselves.

Nonetheless, I've noticed too many times that a lot of gay-disapprovers seem to be quite easy and comfortable in themselves and their disapproval of gays. This is what your cited sources seem to be saying.

However, I think your conclusions about the article are miscast.

The article says,

"Second, using homophobia implies that antigay prejudice is an individual, clinical entity rather than a social phenomenon rooted in cultural ideologies and intergroup relations. Moreover, a phobia is usually experienced as dysfunctional and unpleasant. Antigay prejudice, however, is often highly functional for the heterosexuals who manifest it. "

Firstly, 'highly functional for the heterosexuals who manifest it' doesn't mean that it's 'good' for society nor even, considering the larger view, for those heterosexuals. It just means that it feels like it benefits the lives of the heterosexuals who antigay-prejudiced. It serves a function for them. It's not hard to imagine what such a function might be: it helps to preserve social and economic rewards for those heterosexuals.

Secondly, I agree that there's a danger in the implication that 'antigay prejudice is an individual, clinical entity rather than a social phenomenon'. It's more than possible for an antigay-prejudiced person to assume that, since he has no strong feelings about, much less a fear of, gays - his antigayness doesn't equate to anything 'screwed up'. It feels fine to him, so he'll go with the feeling.

However,
quote:

CreativeDominant

using the construct of sexual prejudice does not require value judgments that antigay attitudes are inherently irrational or evil.


... doesn't by any means let antigay people off the hook. They are still prejudiced. That is, they've judged before the fact. They are by definition, to one degree or another, ignorant. So what that boils down to is that a person who's exhibiting 'sexual prejudice' is going to get called thick rather than nasty.

The true importance of this new term 'sexual prejudice', for me, is that it could potentially do quite the opposite of erasing the particular 'menace' of 'political correctness' that's conveyed by the term 'homophobia'. What it *could* do is point up the very widespread antigayness in society - anti LGBT overall - amongst those who feel themselves to be 'comfortable' in their attitudes of antigayness. (The authors of the article recognise that this 'sexual prejudice' is a widespread issue in its focusing on the 'social' rather the 'collection of disparate individuals' basis of clinical problems - as per a 'clinical problem like homophobia'.)

It's not a great improvement for the status of anti gay people to be seen as stupid rather than nasty, really, but this notion of 'sexual prejudice' *does* hold out the hope that all you have to do is teach them, rather than (implicitly) send them off to get (probably ineffective) treatment from psychiatrists.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/5/2015 6:04:20 PM >


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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 6:06:52 PM   
slvemike4u


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Maybe we should do away with these labels than.....would that work ?
Obviously you see no validity to either term.


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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 6:07:38 PM   
Kirata


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The reality is that the word means whatever the fuck the person using it wants it to mean, which is to say it's meaningless. It does, however, have a perfectly good etymological definition, i.e., "fear of Man" (mankind, not men). Many words start out that way, which allows us to know what they mean even if we never saw them before. This business of custom-tailoring definitions for political purposes is the path to Newspeak.

K.









< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/5/2015 6:12:45 PM >

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 6:15:29 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Collins swaps intense for irrational and omits prejudice and discrimination:
intense hatred or fear of homosexuals or homosexuality

So, those are all "pretty much the same thing"? Bear in mind this is an intelligence test.

K




I do NOT, sir! LOL



Michael C.


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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 7:23:35 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:


The reality is that the word means whatever the fuck the person using it wants it to mean, which is to say it's meaningless.


Like the word 'God'?

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 7:26:38 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


The reality is that the word means whatever the fuck the person using it wants it to mean, which is to say it's meaningless.

Like the word 'God'?

Yes, like the word God.

(Did that work out the way you planned?)

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/5/2015 7:27:44 PM >

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RE: Indiania can now discriminant against anyone - 4/5/2015 7:32:39 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


The reality is that the word means whatever the fuck the person using it wants it to mean, which is to say it's meaningless.

Like the word 'God'?

Yes, like the word God.

(Did that work out the way you planned?)

K.



It worked out one of the two ways I imagined it would. The idea of 'homophobia' - this idea of 'political correctness' and the way the people who use it are so loathed - that loathing *does* look a lot like a 'phobia', regarding both fear and hate, to me and when talking about some people. Not a god, but the opposite: some sort of megapowerful modern day Satan.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/5/2015 7:35:13 PM >


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