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RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 9:42:49 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What's worse, and isn't necessarily mentioned in what you quoted, is the amount of parenting teachers and school staff are being required to do. Kids come in that haven't had solid parenting, and cause disruptions in the classroom. Not only does that force a teacher to have to parent that child, it take away from the educations of the rest of the class.

And that's the other side of it. There are a great number of things on these lists that I don't believe belong in schools. But as you say, kids come into the school without solid parenting. As a result, they disrupt the education of other children. At that point, then, is it the school's responsibility to take over where the parent has left off? Because not everyone in the school building is receiving the same access to education?


That's the tough part. We can't hold parent's liable for not parenting (at least not in the manner we're discussing). It should still NOT be the school's responsibility to parent that child, though.

There is only one way to guarantee everyone in the school building receives the same access to education: parents give children up to government to raise. I'm completely opposed to that.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
When my youngest was in kindergarten, his principal had the fucking gall to tell me it was his job to teach my son morality. That has NEVER (or should never have) been the task of the schools and that is part of the problem in this country also. The schools are more indoctrination centers than halls of academia.
Michael[/color]

Enter "Character Education."
I believe there have been a number of grants and funding programs over the years (especially a few years ago) to schools that required some sort of moral education. So as much as it might ruffle your feathers (and mine), the principal may very well have been correct. Their funding might have been based on proving that they've provided some sort of moral education.


Those grants and funding programs should never have come into existence or been allowed. Schools are eager for more money (and for good reason). Basing funding on schools doing something they shouldn't be doing is wrong.

NCLB (and probably others, but I've been told this by school Superintendents specifically about NCLB) created all sorts of requirements for schools without increasing the funding to cover all those new requirements. That puts all sorts of extra financial burdens on schools that shouldn't be there. Most of those extra requirements are not related to curriculum, either, which means that even more parental responsibility is being shifted onto schools. That's simply a shitty way to do things, and a great way to overstress school employees.


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  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 9:53:26 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I believe, and it seems in the minority, that common core is a wonderful idea. There is no truth to the idea that this testing holds back gifted students and it is essential for those having problems in school and needing additional help.
The common core is exactly what our children need at a basic level to compete on the world stage and being sure every student gets this necessary education across the system can only be common sense.
I believe all children of any race, ethnicity, rich or poor can succeed in school with the proper teaching methods, support, and curriculum. Common Core will show which children need extra help and should also weed out incompetent educators.
Common Core is a measure…yes it is not an easy one to meet and that is the way if should be. It is hard for underperforming schools who for years have failed to educate their children properly… but over time there will be no excuse as young children have their problems exposed and addressed. You will not have the so called 9th grade educator of the year complaining about the test because many of her students were reading at the 5th grade level… This is exactly why common core is needed.
Butch


The problem I see with Common Core is that students are forced to look at things in different ways that may or may not be the way they learn. I recently helped the daughter of a friend with her 7th grade math homework. It was about factoring. I showed her what factors are and how to find them using the "factor tree." It was the simplest way I could find to help her, as she was having a lot of difficulty with that. By the end of that homework session, she was getting it, and could factor numbers without much help. I even went so far as to show her how division and simplification of fractions is easier once she understood factoring. Well, she got every single problem marked wrong. Every answer was correct, but she didn't get there the "right" way. She struggled with math until they got to factoring the way she was able to understand (factor trees), and then could use whatever method she chose.

Common Core sure might help kids learn alternate ways of doing things, but it might also negatively effect studies when kids are forced to do things in ways that aren't usable by them. You should have seen the way her eyes sparkled when she got an A on a math test over factoring (she was allowed to choose whichever method she wanted). A complete change from her attitude after getting an F on a homework assignment that she still got all the answers correct.




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What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
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  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 9:55:19 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

It is not a chicken and egg thing, it is the reality of single parent homes, women who think they have to have a baby with every man they fuck and people who have no business parenting being the most fertile ones walking around.
There is a saying that goes something like "A child who is loved at home will come to school to learn. A child who is not will come to school to be loved."
If a child believes that the only way they can get attention is back acting badly, I am going to make sure I do all I can to praise the\m when they act well, and hope that I can teach them some type of a lesson. That may not be what you are talking about, but the fact is in some districts, our main job is to try to teach lessons to children, lessons that hove nothing to do with the 3 r's


I can't discuss this with you, anymore. You're obviously a teacher and one that is well entrenched in the idea that it is a good idea for the government to raise our children.

All I will say is that it's been done before and in none of the instances of which I'm aware did it work out well for the people, individually or the society, collectively.



Michael

Of course you cant discuss this with her any further...a) she's a woman b) she disagrees with you.
That's two strikes and in your narrow minded world view that's all she's allowed.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 10:04:00 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

The problem I see with Common Core is that students are forced to look at things in different ways that may or may not be the way they learn


Dead wrong here my friend right off the bat... English, language arts (ELA), and mathematics are just that... math is math and it makes no difference how you teach it.. in fact they are not telling you HOW to teach it just grading on results... This could mean your methods suck and it would be good to know don't you think? Or it cold mean your kids need extra help... would not that be good to know as well?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/12/2015 10:05:41 AM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 10:13:33 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

The problem I see with Common Core is that students are forced to look at things in different ways that may or may not be the way they learn

Dead wrong here my friend right off the bat... English, language arts (ELA), and mathematics are just that... math is math and it makes no difference how you teach it.. in fact they are not telling you HOW to teach it just grading on results... This could mean your methods suck and it would be good to know don't you think? Or it cold mean your kids need extra help... would not that be good to know as well?
Butch


I think I might have not made myself clear. Using my example, there is more than one way to factor, and to learn factoring. Forcing students to learn (or attempt to learn) every way can negatively influence the attitudes of the students. While Billy might not get factor trees, Sally might. Why should Sally be forced to learn other ways when she gets factoring? Obviously, Billy doesn't get factor trees, so he'll need a different strategy, and he'll get it. But, so will Sally, and the rest of the class. And, if Sally doesn't get the other strategies, her grades can be impacted, even though she has no problem with factoring.

Many of the math strategies my twins are being taught (different from their older brother) are strategies I've been trying to show them for several years now. I'm a math guy, and love numbers. There are tips and tricks I've learned or come up with, that are being taught to the students now. That's great, but it's not for everyone.

Hi. My name is DS, and I'm a math guy.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 10:15:47 AM   
housebitch777


Posts: 74
Joined: 3/6/2015
Status: offline 		I want some politician who doesn't know me from adam telling I am good or bad at what I do.....having seen what or how I do it. If the teacher cant
see the problem from his test score, quizzes that he has a problem, the parents cant see it....then their is a lost cause anyways.....we certainly don't need
politicians who are conflicting interest in test score and unemployment numbers.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 10:21:02 AM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: housebitch777
I want some politician who doesn't know me from adam telling I am good or bad at what I do.....having seen what or how I do it. If the teacher cant
see the problem from his test score, quizzes that he has a problem, the parents cant see it....then their is a lost cause anyways.....we certainly don't need
politicians who are conflicting interest in test score and unemployment numbers.


The politicians aren't coming up with the standards. People involved in all levels of education are developing the standards, that is, teachers, superintendents, principals, etc.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to housebitch777)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 10:29:53 AM   
housebitch777


Posts: 74
Joined: 3/6/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: housebitch777
I want some politician who doesn't know me from adam telling I am good or bad at what I do.....having seen what or how I do it. If the teacher cant
see the problem from his test score, quizzes that he has a problem, the parents cant see it....then their is a lost cause anyways.....we certainly don't need
politicians who are conflicting interest in test score and unemployment numbers.


The politicians aren't coming up with the standards. People involved in all levels of education are developing the standards, that is, teachers, superintendents, principals, etc.


being pushed by stupid beauracratic policy.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 10:35:39 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

The politicians aren't coming up with the standards. People involved in all levels of education are developing the standards, that is, teachers, superintendents, principals, etc.



Political people pushing political agendas are involved, absolutely.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 11:21:05 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

the pic is so damn small

How's this?






It is. I knew of that quote of Einsteins long before the internet was even thought about, have always loved it!

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 11:22:49 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

think I might have not made myself clear. Using my example, there is more than one way to factor, and to learn factoring. Forcing students to learn (or attempt to learn) every way can negatively influence the attitudes of the students. While Billy might not get factor trees, Sally might. Why should Sally be forced to learn other ways when she gets factoring?


You are clear I guess I am not...Common core does not care how Bill or Sally learns factoring... There is no method mandated... only that they become proficient. There is most likely no difference in how a particular teacher decides how to best get her class to understand concepts before CC or after... Common core will have no impact on that. It just says a certain core curriculum most be taught...not how to teach it. This core IS something EVERY child needs to learn.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 11:26:30 AM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

It is not a chicken and egg thing, it is the reality of single parent homes, women who think they have to have a baby with every man they fuck and people who have no business parenting being the most fertile ones walking around.
There is a saying that goes something like "A child who is loved at home will come to school to learn. A child who is not will come to school to be loved."
If a child believes that the only way they can get attention is back acting badly, I am going to make sure I do all I can to praise the\m when they act well, and hope that I can teach them some type of a lesson. That may not be what you are talking about, but the fact is in some districts, our main job is to try to teach lessons to children, lessons that hove nothing to do with the 3 r's


I can't discuss this with you, anymore. You're obviously a teacher and one that is well entrenched in the idea that it is a good idea for the government to raise our children.

All I will say is that it's been done before and in none of the instances of which I'm aware did it work out well for the people, individually or the society, collectively.



Michael

I am not a teacher-lolol. I am a cafeteria manager of 10 years after being a plain old grouchylunchlady for 7 years before that. Sub taught for 5 years before that

I choose to work in the part of the county where the children need love. It makes me happy to have them come back 10 years later and tell me they remember me not ratting them out the first time I caught them stealing, I read them the riot act and told them if you are hungry come let me know and I will buy you more food, but if I catch you stealing again I am hauling you to the office so fat it will make your head swim.

Like I said, in many places, including some in the county I work in, the teaching of morality and such is not needed, but if you try to teach it in some places and not others then someone bitches about discrimination.

I don't think that learning the meanings of compassion, honesty, etc is going to brainwash any child though. But I do get your point, really I do.

I am only speaking about what I see day in and day out, and it saddens me sometimes.

edit to change a but to a buy-snort

< Message edited by JstAnotherSub -- 4/12/2015 11:31:59 AM >

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RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 11:30:14 AM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

The problem I see with Common Core is that students are forced to look at things in different ways that may or may not be the way they learn


Dead wrong here my friend right off the bat... English, language arts (ELA), and mathematics are just that... math is math and it makes no difference how you teach it.. in fact they are not telling you HOW to teach it just grading on results... This could mean your methods suck and it would be good to know don't you think? Or it cold mean your kids need extra help... would not that be good to know as well?

Butch

I gotta disagree a little bit here. Working after school program, the way they teach kids to add blew my fucking mind. Circling groups of squares and such rather than learning that 5+3=8. To me, it just seems they start with the complicated way rather than trying the easy way and then expanding on it for the students who need it.

But then I am a product of the schools of the 60's and 70's, so I may be brainwashed or something

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RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 11:56:36 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		We are not disagreeing at all...I wish they would go back to the old system we learned but if they do or don't is not part of CC... They just have to learn 5+3=8 at a certain grade level as a minimum requirement... It does not prohibit learning more for advanced students or mandate how they learn it. If a method a teacher is using fails... then this will be pointed out by their children's scores and it will be changed or the school will face the penalties. This should help keep good methods and teachers and weed out those that do not perform.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/12/2015 11:58:04 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 12:08:45 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

think I might have not made myself clear. Using my example, there is more than one way to factor, and to learn factoring. Forcing students to learn (or attempt to learn) every way can negatively influence the attitudes of the students. While Billy might not get factor trees, Sally might. Why should Sally be forced to learn other ways when she gets factoring?

You are clear I guess I am not...Common core does not care how Bill or Sally learns factoring... There is no method mandated... only that they become proficient. There is most likely no difference in how a particular teacher decides how to best get her class to understand concepts before CC or after... Common core will have no impact on that. It just says a certain core curriculum most be taught...not how to teach it. This core IS something EVERY child needs to learn.
Butch


The difference in how my kids are learning (as described in an earlier post in this thread) is only 3 years. The only difference is in the school adopting Common Core.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 12:19:05 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I'm sorry I still do not see the logic in your posts... CC does not have a thing to do in how a subject is taught... Now your school may have changed the way the teach but that is not CC's fault... it is that particular school or teachers choice.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 12:37:47 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We are not disagreeing at all...I wish they would go back to the old system we learned but if they do or don't is not part of CC... They just have to learn 5+3=8 at a certain grade level as a minimum requirement... It does not prohibit learning more for advanced students or mandate how they learn it. If a method a teacher is using fails... then this will be pointed out by their children's scores and it will be changed or the school will face the penalties. This should help keep good methods and teachers and weed out those that do not perform.

Butch

We are not doing the common core this year, I cannot remember the name of the tests they are taking this week, but it is a brand new thing that is supposed to be more clear.

I hate hate hate testing week, everyone in the school is walking on eggshells, teachers and kids stressed, the only thing good is my breakfast participation goes up quite a bit. The teachers seem to think a hungry child can learn but cannot test I reckon

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RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 3:31:56 PM   
Kaliko


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Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

We are not doing the common core this year, I cannot remember the name of the tests they are taking this week, but it is a brand new thing that is supposed to be more clear.



The Common Core isn't the name of a test. (Unless it's a freaky coincidence.) States/districts might be using standardized testing to assess their students' skills in alignment to the Common Core, but I think it's certainly possible that they're not. I suspect, though, that if you are taking a brand new test this year, that it is one designed to meet your state's requirements for assessment - most likely to the Common Core. (I do believe there are some waivers in the works-possibly already granted? I've not been following that closely, though.)

Actually, I just took at look at your state (if it's the same as listed in your profile). They adopted the core standards in 2010 and the first year of implementation is this year. Again, I'm hearing some bits about the occasional maverick district, so perhaps yours is one.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I gotta disagree a little bit here. Working after school program, the way they teach kids to add blew my fucking mind. Circling groups of squares and such rather than learning that 5+3=8. To me, it just seems they start with the complicated way rather than trying the easy way and then expanding on it for the students who need it.

But then I am a product of the schools of the 60's and 70's, so I may be brainwashed or something



I found this to be a great explanation of what you are probably referring to.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/03/17/its-worth-taking-a-full-minute-to-learn-how-to-add-9-and-6-a-response-to-the-common-core-critics/


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You are clear I guess I am not...Common core does not care how Bill or Sally learns factoring... There is no method mandated... only that they become proficient.




I second this. From www.corestandards.org: "Teachers know best about what works in the classroom. That is why these standards establish what students need to learn but do not dictate how teachers should teach. Instead, schools and teachers will decide how best to help students reach the standards."



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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 4:44:27 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		You are correct Kaliko, I shouldn't have said the test. It is a new test to replace the CRCT, and is supposed to be the first step towards more common sense teaching. I have racked my brain trying to remember the name of the tests, but I guess my spring break turned my mind to mush. It will come to me tomorrow I bet when I get up at 4:30 again.

One of the things that drives me insane is walking up the hall and seeing some great work hanging and it all says something to the effect of "You met the standard 123.kiss my ass.65 by sorting the blue dots and counting them correctly".

I want smiley face stickers back dammit!

eta I love that link explaining the math thing. Couldn't wrap my head around it, but I am sharing it at work tomorrow with several teachers!

< Message edited by JstAnotherSub -- 4/12/2015 4:46:17 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: School Testing - 4/12/2015 7:17:14 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko
I found this to be a great explanation of what you are probably referring to.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/03/17/its-worth-taking-a-full-minute-to-learn-how-to-add-9-and-6-a-response-to-the-common-core-critics/


    quote:

    "Our young learners may not be comfortable thinking about what 9 + 6 is, but they are comfortable with their friend, 10..."


OMG, I couldn't go on. And, sure 9+6 and 47+99 are easy problems to use as examples. Making sure students understand what each digit represents (10^0 (1's), 10^1 (10's), 10^2 (100's), etc.) is done and that is a good thing, and once a student actually understands why it's important to know that, the questions like 9+6 are simple to figure out by raising the 9 to 10 and taking a from 6.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 60
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