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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 11:45:52 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If you were on trial for your life do you think the difficulty in getting witnesses should be so easily put aside? It is our justice system that they would face and since when has our justice system worried about propaganda?

Butch

None of that matters, even though you have bought into John Kerry's belief that there are "just" criminals it would once again be tying the hands of the military. Do you want them read their rights when captured in the middle of a battle. With your approach if they didn't it would turn into catch and release.

Who said anything about putting the lack of witnesses aside. It would make prosecution almost impossible sending them back to kill more Americans.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/28/2015 11:57:36 AM >

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 11:57:04 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

No they aren't they are enemy combatants captured in combat while not wearing uniforms. That gives them the right to be shot on the spot


Yes it does... if we were in N. Korea.

There is no...." WAR".... They are simply criminals by their actions and if we have evidence of their transgressions then why do we not run them through our justice system? We do not have to be like them to fight them do we?

Butch

Yes there is a war, as much as in Korea. You do realize that prosecution in our courts has two problems. One getting witnesses to the trial. Two surely you realize that the trials would not feature a denying their "crimes" but of justifying them. They would justify every atrocity committed with how evil the US is. It would be nothing but a propaganda show.



Yet those the Obama administration have prosecuted, have been found guilty, using our justice system, and it appears our Constitution is strong enough to work, regardless of the 'conservative' pussies (who play at goons and thugs) wailing and gnashing of teeth, and its criminal trampling by the W administration.


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 5/28/2015 11:58:23 AM >

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 1:10:07 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

None of that matters


It most certainly does to me and it should to you...I once believed in American values and justice and I would like to again. Is it only Americans that deserve a day in court... is it only Americans that have human rights...does war change your values?... Not mine.

Butch

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 1:38:58 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

None of that matters


It most certainly does to me and it should to you...I once believed in American values and justice and I would like to again. Is it only Americans that deserve a day in court... is it only Americans that have human rights...does war change your values?... Not mine.

Butch

The rules are different in war. They are the enemy. They are pows. They should be held till the war ends. If their side insists on a never ending war that is their problem, not mine. Our problem since WWII is that we have tried to be the nice guys in every conflict, that doesn't work. Insistence on being nice in the long run means more dead Americans. Why do you want the military to try to function like police officers?

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 1:39:56 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

None of that matters


It most certainly does to me and it should to you...I once believed in American values and justice and I would like to again. Is it only Americans that deserve a day in court... is it only Americans that have human rights...does war change your values?... Not mine.

Butch


Legally and practically, only American citizens are protected by our constitution. Enemy combatants arent protected, and to me its kind of crazy to assume that they should be. Generally speaking, our enemies are enemies of our constitution in a war against our values. We treat our enemies different than we treat jay walkers because we want to live

This seems like talking to someone in a Monty Python skit

"My good man, that jihadist who was trying to kill you - did you read him his rights before you shot him dead?"

"What?"

"Did you read him his rights. What about a trial."

"A trial???"



< Message edited by Sanity -- 5/28/2015 1:41:10 PM >

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 1:49:08 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		But that is not quite true, Scotus had determined that most of the constitution and some of the bill of rights are even available to illegal immigrants, as well as other non-citizens, when in our country.

Blow them up on a battlefield, nobody gives a fuck. Except rightwing slobberers when Obama takes them out with drones and they once had an American citizenship by reason of birth (but not those goddamn mexicans not ever) but became traitors to America.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 5/28/2015 1:54:59 PM >

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 2:12:59 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

None of that matters


It most certainly does to me and it should to you...I once believed in American values and justice and I would like to again. Is it only Americans that deserve a day in court... is it only Americans that have human rights...does war change your values?... Not mine.

Butch

How about letting them make bail, and of course "making" them stay in country. We would capture lots more of them that way.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 2:26:20 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Thats a rather novel and utterly fucking moronic idea.

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 3:28:19 PM   
JVoV


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Status: offline 		Not if the country is Cuba. I'm sure they'll like Castro just fine.

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 3:37:09 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		See... I think we should apply our values to all... they may not to us but what does that say about them? In battle we kill...if it were a real war then prisoners would have agreed upon rights and treatment... but we are not in a real war with civilized regulations. So what should we do? Keep them forever...deny them any rights? No we need a new way of dealing with these assholes.

To me the criminal system would do just fine and would allow an end game for all. It could determine punishment, which could include execution, and a set duration of incarceration... But most of all it should provide justice which yes could mean release if there is not good evidence. But it would reaffirm our place in the world as a country of justice for all. I would rather release Osama bin laden himself then loose our sense of justice.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 4:43:44 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


—Mohammad Fazl is a former deputy defense minister and chief of staff and commander for the Taliban army. "Detainee is wanted by the U.N. for possible war crimes including the murder of thousands of Shiites. Detainee was associated with terrorist groups currently opposing U.S. and coalition forces," according to a 2008 detainee assessment by the U.S. military. "If released, detainee would likely rejoin the Taliban and establish ties with ... elements participating in hostilities against U.S. and coalition forces in Afghanistan."


Yet an American review board found there wasnt enough evidence to charge him ?

quote:

When it reported back, a year later, the Joint Review Task Force classified some individuals as too dangerous to be transferred from Guantanamo, even though there was no evidence to justify laying charges against them. On April 9, 2013, that document was made public after a Freedom of Information Act request.[20] Mohammed Fazl was one of the 71 individuals deemed too innocent to charge, but too dangerous to release.


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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 4:50:59 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a simple solution to the problem of the military prison at Guantanamo Bay... adjudicate the criminals. They are criminals not prisoners of war and should be dealt with as we would any criminals in our justice system.

If we do not have the evidence to prosecute release them...simple. If they can be justly tried then incarcerate or execute them...simple.

This way there will be no..." prisoners of so called war" to exchange.

Butch



Good post.

Shaker Aamer has been held for 13 years with no trial........ Despite being cleared for release under both Bush and Obama. It is barbaric, and probably a war crime in itself, that anyone can be held for so long without due process.

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 4:57:42 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
No they aren't they are enemy combatants captured in combat while not wearing uniforms. That gives them the right to be shot on the spot.


It is widely known this is bullshit. Bush, Rumsfeld and co were so keen to round up suspects many just vanished on the say so of informants with uncorroborated evidence.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8471907/WikiLeaks-Guantanamo-Bay-terrorist-secrets-revealed.html

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RE: The 5 Terrorist Leaders Exchanged for Bergdahl: - 5/28/2015 5:00:28 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Yes there is a war, as much as in Korea. You do realize that prosecution in our courts has two problems. One getting witnesses to the trial. Two surely you realize that the trials would not feature a denying their "crimes" but of justifying them. They would justify every atrocity committed with how evil the US is. It would be nothing but a propaganda show.


Au Contraire bruv. there is also a third problem which you clumsily sidestepped.

There is "NO FUCKING EVIDENCE"

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Profile   Post #: 34
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