quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

George Wallace was a pilot in WWII. Yet, he still stood on the wrong side of history as governor of Alabama. I don't think schools should be named after him either.

I know you're of the opinion that the Civil War was about States' Rights, but the South didn't care about the rights of other States, where slavery was illegal.

Since our Constitution begins with "We the people", it is heavily implied that Human Rights must always trump States Rights.

A bit of reading for you about why the South seceded, in their own words. http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~ras2777/amgov/secession.html#South%20Carolina

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

Since the original Klan was created by former Confederate soldiers, it isn't exactly stolen valor.

Yeah, six sore-losers.

K.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: JVoV

George Wallace was a pilot in WWII. Yet, he still stood on the wrong side of history as governor of Alabama. I don't think schools should be named after him either.

I know you're of the opinion that the Civil War was about States' Rights, but the South didn't care about the rights of other States, where slavery was illegal.

Since our Constitution begins with "We the people", it is heavily implied that Human Rights must always trump States Rights.

A bit of reading for you about why the South seceded, in their own words. http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~ras2777/amgov/secession.html#South%20Carolina

What rights of non slave states did the south ignore? Are you saying that by having slaves they somehow violated the rights of non slave states?
Are you saying that they somehow forced those states to have slaves?
Come on you know that isn't true. Or maybe it was just a throw away line that sounded good in your head.

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ORIGINAL: HunterCA

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

George Wallace was a pilot in WWII. Yet, he still stood on the wrong side of history as governor of Alabama. I don't think schools should be named after him either.

I know you're of the opinion that the Civil War was about States' Rights, but the South didn't care about the rights of other States, where slavery was illegal.

Since our Constitution begins with "We the people", it is heavily implied that Human Rights must always trump States Rights.

A bit of reading for you about why the South seceded, in their own words. http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~ras2777/amgov/secession.html#South%20Carolina

What rights of non slave states did the south ignore? Are you saying that by having slaves they somehow violated the rights of non slave states?
Are you saying that they somehow forced those states to have slaves?
Come on you know that isn't true. Or maybe it was just a throw away line that sounded good in your head.

Actually, the whole concept of States Rights allows and encourages individual States to ignore how it's done in other States. But, JVoV, are you saying the confederate States actively subverted the Yankees?

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ORIGINAL: HunterCA

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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And, BTW, if you had been using semiotic analysis you'd have discussed the symbols on the flag. You can't help yourself being a smarty pants. But, you didn't do that. What you did is what I said and then after I said it you scurried around looking for anything that would make you look smart and that you could use to denigrate me. It's what you do. You were in no way doing any symbol analysis. This entire post is BS trying to cover your little rear.

For a clue, look at the campaign button above this post. See where it says Heritage not Hate. It doesn't say Freedom not Hate does it. So, you see, your original post was just as full of shit as this one.

Oh, don't worry. I'm not going to be infantile and use a ROTFL emoticon.

You didn't point out in that post that Tweakabelle is full of hate, Hunter. A post to Tweakabelle in which you don't mention that she's full of hate is a *wasted* post. Just saying. [:)]

She's an Aussie seriously lecturing us on the Confederate Battle Flag. She's doing just fine in pointing out her limitations all on her own. I should say, you did actually ask about stuff you didn't understand since you weren't local. She's not got that sense and I'm content for her to demonstrate it.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Not at all. I have no idea where you got that from. My point was that both perspectives on the Confederate flag - that it is a symbol of OTOH "slavery" and OTOH "freedom" are both interpretations. Neither has the status of "reality". This is not a case of 'perception" versus "reality" as you chose to frame it.

The only reality of the Confederate flag possesses is that it is a bit of coloured material probably cotton, sewn together. Attaching any meaning to that bit of cotton is an act of interpretation.

This discussion revolves around the effects of different interpretations of that bit of coloured cotton. Neither side can legitimately or reasonably claim that its interpretation is the sole or only "reality", no matter how "real" that interpretation may feel to the various perception holders.

Well let's sort out where we agree and disagree. Yes, every flag is just a piece of colored material, if you want to take as your starting point such a severely reductive perspective, in which case the only thing that matters is whether or not it clashes with your décor. And yes, people can project onto a flag just about any meaning they want; or more to the point, any meaning that suits their purpose and furthers their agenda.

[snip]

Is there, as you argue, no reality here? Is someone who exclaims, "No! That's not what it stands for at all!" really just expressing a different and equally legitimate interpretation? This is where we differ. I don't think so. Yes, people will perceive whatever they want to perceive. But sometimes the appropriate response is, "No! That's not what it stands for at all!"

K.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Not at all. I have no idea where you got that from. My point was that both perspectives on the Confederate flag - that it is a symbol of OTOH "slavery" and OTOH "freedom" are both interpretations. Neither has the status of "reality". This is not a case of 'perception" versus "reality" as you chose to frame it.

The only reality of the Confederate flag possesses is that it is a bit of coloured material probably cotton, sewn together. Attaching any meaning to that bit of cotton is an act of interpretation.

This discussion revolves around the effects of different interpretations of that bit of coloured cotton. Neither side can legitimately or reasonably claim that its interpretation is the sole or only "reality", no matter how "real" that interpretation may feel to the various perception holders.

Well let's sort out where we agree and disagree. Yes, every flag is just a piece of colored material, if you want to take as your starting point such a severely reductive perspective, in which case the only thing that matters is whether or not it clashes with your décor. And yes, people can project onto a flag just about any meaning they want; or more to the point, any meaning that suits their purpose and furthers their agenda.

[snip]

Is there, as you argue, no reality here? Is someone who exclaims, "No! That's not what it stands for at all!" really just expressing a different and equally legitimate interpretation? This is where we differ. I don't think so. Yes, people will perceive whatever they want to perceive. But sometimes the appropriate response is, "No! That's not what it stands for at all!"

K.

But we are not talking about random interpetations of a symbol. We are talking about two very specific and opposing interpretations of the Confederate flag, both with long histories as the citations I posted above show.

I can understand that, for many Americans, the flag is a symbol of a past they regard with pride. Can you understand that for many Americans it is a symbol of shame ? In particular for black Americans it symbolises the old South with its record of slavery and segregation? Surely it is possible to find a symbol of the old South that is acceptable to all, that doesn't have the negative connotations or baggage that seems to accompany this one when ever it is flown?

Perhaps the best idea would be to retire this symbol to museums where historians could debate its meaning forever and the rest of the world could get on with living in today's world.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Not at all. I have no idea where you got that from. My point was that both perspectives on the Confederate flag - that it is a symbol of OTOH "slavery" and OTOH "freedom" are both interpretations. Neither has the status of "reality". This is not a case of 'perception" versus "reality" as you chose to frame it.

The only reality of the Confederate flag possesses is that it is a bit of coloured material probably cotton, sewn together. Attaching any meaning to that bit of cotton is an act of interpretation.

This discussion revolves around the effects of different interpretations of that bit of coloured cotton. Neither side can legitimately or reasonably claim that its interpretation is the sole or only "reality", no matter how "real" that interpretation may feel to the various perception holders.

Well let's sort out where we agree and disagree. Yes, every flag is just a piece of colored material, if you want to take as your starting point such a severely reductive perspective, in which case the only thing that matters is whether or not it clashes with your décor. And yes, people can project onto a flag just about any meaning they want; or more to the point, any meaning that suits their purpose and furthers their agenda.

[snip]

Is there, as you argue, no reality here? Is someone who exclaims, "No! That's not what it stands for at all!" really just expressing a different and equally legitimate interpretation? This is where we differ. I don't think so. Yes, people will perceive whatever they want to perceive. But sometimes the appropriate response is, "No! That's not what it stands for at all!"

K.

But we are not talking about random interpetations of a symbol. We are talking about two very specific and opposing interpretations of the Confederate flag, both with long histories as the citations I posted above show.

I can understand that, for many Americans, the flag is a symbol of a past they regard with pride. Can you understand that for many Americans it is a symbol of shame ? In particular for black Americans it symbolises the old South with its record of slavery and segregation? Surely it is possible to find a symbol of the old South that is acceptable to all, that doesn't have the negative connotations or baggage that seems to accompany this one when ever it is flown?

Perhaps the best idea would be to retire this symbol to museums where historians could debate its meaning forever and the rest of the world could get on with living in today's world. FWIW that's what I would like to do with the current Australian flag for pretty similar reasons.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

[image]http://jonathanschmock.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/sorry-pal-1b.png[/image]

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What about people equating what the Confederate Flag stands for with the Gay Pride Flag and saying, “Hey, that flag should be taken down too because all it represents is hatred towards Christians" ?

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR

The South lost the war. End of story. That's why we have all those states as part of "The United States of America". Otherwise, they would be their own country and could fly whatever flag they want. But they are not their own country. They lost that bid. A really long time ago. So unless the southern states really don't feel they are part of what is known as "America" then they need to stop flying a flag that is basically a statement of rebellion against the United States. It is unpatriotic for these states to continue to fly this flag. Do we see the Union Jack flying c continuously on government buildings? That war was lost by Britain. Again, over and done with. The country we live in now is THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. If the South is still struggling with that then they can start another civil war. Otherwise, they need to get with the program. Racist or not is really a separate issue. For any government building to be flying a flag that is unpatriotic strikes me as at best, ridiculous, at worst, seditious and treasonous. If the southern states would like to attempt to secede again, be my guest. Then the government buildings can fly whatever flag they prefer. Until I hear otherwise, the southern states are part of America. Don't want to be part of America? Then leave. Don't participate in this passive aggressive action of flying a rebel flag and then still claiming to be part of "America".
My comments are not directed to private individuals who choose in their private lives to use stupid stuff. That is protected by the First Amendment. My comments are directed to what state governments should be allowed to do in this context. And in this context, government buildings flying a rebel flag have no place in the country we call The United States of America.

Except for the detail that the flag under discussion is not and never was the national flag of the Confederate States of America.

K.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

[image]http://jonathanschmock.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/sorry-pal-1b.png[/image]