Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: 14th Ammendment


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: 14th Ammendment Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: 14th Ammendment - 7/7/2015 3:17:05 PM   
Moderator3


Posts: 3289
Status: offline
Why don't you all go get some fresh air before you continue?

_____________________________

FAST REPLY




(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: 14th Ammendment - 7/7/2015 3:43:38 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


Hardly. Citizens 16 years old hold few rights of adulthood...i.e., cannot vote or contract. Furthermore, there is no constitutional challenge to requiring adulthood to marry. These laws challenged, were based on sex...not age.

For the state to define the right of marriage as having a sexual requirement, frees them to pass laws having a racial requirement and so on. On your terms you would then disagree with Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. unanimous ruling, 1967, state of Va. prohibition of marriage between races.



The Constitution allows 16 year olds to vote should the individual state allows it. Further, it specifically says all naturalized persons are citizens without age or gender or race distinctions. Additionally, it prohibits states from denying the vote for anyone over the age of 17.

Marriage is not in the Constitution. Voting is. Driving is not. See the difference? Voting is, diving is not nor is marriage nor is child support or divorce for that matter. Notice a pattern there?


Actually that definition of citizenship was in the 14th amend. prior to which were many citizenship restrictions. A citizen must have attained the age of 18 to vote in elections for federal office. (26th amend.)

Also in that amend. (14th.) was a 21 yrs of age requirement for voting in elections for federal office. However, equal protection of the laws was also in the 14th. and a marriage contract is state contract law, so to deny anyone equal protection of that law on the basis of sex, is a violation of the 14th. just as in 'Loving.'

Don't recall bringing up driving.




Not so. While the 14th mentions 21 years of age (male only!) voters, it stipulates that males 21 years or older MUST be allowed to vote in national elections unless they are criminals. It does not require males to be 21 years old to vote. Read it yourself....


Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.


SO, I Recommend reading the actual Constitution text rather than what a few others have been using, some internet comment or summary which tends to have an agenda perhaps leading to much distortion.


< Message edited by Arturas -- 7/7/2015 3:45:35 PM >


_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: 14th Ammendment - 7/7/2015 6:15:34 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yet another headpipe blown on sputtering asswipe. Why would anyone, even you with your lack of comprehension of reality think 1992 for the constitution?

It wouldnt matter though, the exact same dumping by acclimation of the states of the AOC would still have occurred, but with the 'conservatives' we have today, probably not.


Well next time post an 'argument' and quote something from your source instead of giving me a "here is the internet" as your support. The site you posted was meaningless to the points under discussion.

Henry pointed out (correctly imo) they had no authority to abandon the AOC, or replace it with a constitution which is a whole different style of contract.

I stand by what I said, that the constitution was literally cut and paste English law.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: 14th Ammendment - 7/7/2015 11:37:19 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2346
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Very well, then according to the 14th Amendment, my privileges are safeguarded and these include food, shelter, internet access and marrying my first cousin since marriage is a right that cannot be restricted. Also, the Constitution does not specify how many marriages are a right so I can now marry multiple women should I be so foolish as to do so and my right to do so is protected.


Again, not true. States are constitutionally free to define marriage (US courts) as a contract between two people only.

Furthermore, any govt. provision of food, clothing and shelter is subject to the various state and federal laws and are in no way guaranteed constitutional law but the 14th amend. requires their equal protection.



To be fair to Arturas. States being "Constitutionally Free" to define something is NOT the same thing as that something being defined in the Constitution.

So, then, is marriage defined in the constitution? Or is it a subject of those rights not specifically given to the federal government are reserved to the states?


It is a subject of those rights not specifically given to the federal government, and therefore reserved to the states.

State law defines marriage. Which is PRECISELY why any STATE law defining marriage as exclusively between a man and a woman is a direct violation of the 14th Amendment.

(in reply to HunterCA)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: 14th Ammendment - 7/8/2015 1:38:08 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

It is a subject of those rights not specifically given to the federal government, and therefore reserved to the states.

State law defines marriage. Which is PRECISELY why any STATE law defining marriage as exclusively between a man and a woman is a direct violation of the 14th Amendment.

Well, not so fast. Before the Court could invoke the Equal Protection clause, it first had to redefine marriage. From the ruling:

From their beginning to their most recent page, the annals of human history reveal the transcendent importance of marriage. The lifelong union of a man and a woman always has promised nobility and dignity to all persons, without regard to their station in life. Marriage is sacred to those who live by their religions and offers unique fulfillment to those who find meaning in the secular realm. Its dynamic allows two people to find a life that could not be found alone, for a marriage becomes greater than just the two persons. Rising from the most basic human needs, marriage is essential to our most profound hopes and aspirations.

The centrality of marriage to the human condition makes it unsurprising that the institution has existed for millennia and across civilizations. Since the dawn of history, marriage has transformed strangers into relatives, binding families and societies together. Confucius taught that marriage lies at the foundation of government. 2 Li Chi: Book of Rites 266 (C. Chai & W. Chai eds., J. Legge transl. 1967). This wisdom was echoed centuries later and half a world away by Cicero, who wrote, "The first bond of society is marriage; next, children; and then the family." See De Officiis 57 (W. Miller transl. 1913). There are untold references to the beauty of marriage in religious and philosophical texts spanning time, cultures, and faiths, as well as in art and literature in all their forms. It is fair and necessary to say these references were based on the understanding that marriage is a union between two persons of the opposite sex.

That history is the beginning of these cases...


Source

It does not seem impertinent or burdened with ill-will to inquire from whence the Court obtained the right to change the clear and plain meaning of a law by arbitrarily redefining its terms.

K.


(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: 14th Ammendment - 7/8/2015 9:41:03 PM   
MasterJaguar01


Posts: 2346
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

It is a subject of those rights not specifically given to the federal government, and therefore reserved to the states.

State law defines marriage. Which is PRECISELY why any STATE law defining marriage as exclusively between a man and a woman is a direct violation of the 14th Amendment.

Well, not so fast. Before the Court could invoke the Equal Protection clause, it first had to redefine marriage. From the ruling:

From their beginning to their most recent page, the annals of human history reveal the transcendent importance of marriage. The lifelong union of a man and a woman always has promised nobility and dignity to all persons, without regard to their station in life. Marriage is sacred to those who live by their religions and offers unique fulfillment to those who find meaning in the secular realm. Its dynamic allows two people to find a life that could not be found alone, for a marriage becomes greater than just the two persons. Rising from the most basic human needs, marriage is essential to our most profound hopes and aspirations.

The centrality of marriage to the human condition makes it unsurprising that the institution has existed for millennia and across civilizations. Since the dawn of history, marriage has transformed strangers into relatives, binding families and societies together. Confucius taught that marriage lies at the foundation of government. 2 Li Chi: Book of Rites 266 (C. Chai & W. Chai eds., J. Legge transl. 1967). This wisdom was echoed centuries later and half a world away by Cicero, who wrote, "The first bond of society is marriage; next, children; and then the family." See De Officiis 57 (W. Miller transl. 1913). There are untold references to the beauty of marriage in religious and philosophical texts spanning time, cultures, and faiths, as well as in art and literature in all their forms. It is fair and necessary to say these references were based on the understanding that marriage is a union between two persons of the opposite sex.

That history is the beginning of these cases...


Source

It does not seem impertinent or burdened with ill-will to inquire from whence the Court obtained the right to change the clear and plain meaning of a law by arbitrarily redefining its terms.

K.




Actuaally, that is backwards. The Equal Protection Clause nullifies an exclusive definition. It's not that marriage has to be re-defined to invoike the clause. It is that the clause nullifies an exclusive definition.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: 14th Ammendment - 7/8/2015 9:52:40 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

It is a subject of those rights not specifically given to the federal government, and therefore reserved to the states.

State law defines marriage. Which is PRECISELY why any STATE law defining marriage as exclusively between a man and a woman is a direct violation of the 14th Amendment.


Why stop there?

Where did the state, or county, or city, or bourough,.......anyone but the couple have the right to define marriage.

Except of course in the english feudal structure where property is insured to the nobility.

(which gets us right back where I said.....that we are a feudal society...bastardized version, the names changed but feudal none the less.)

So I would enjoy exploring this to the state and local level in addition to the fed level. Where did anyone get the authority? What are the particulars?

Now I could see the states going so far as defining marriage to be between 2 humans, or 2 adults. Like the constitution the general scope, otherwise some loon will surely try to marry a turnip or their pet rock, but beyond that where do they get this jurisdiction in the first place if not carried forward from the feudal legal heritage?







< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/8/2015 10:37:45 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: 14th Ammendment - 7/8/2015 10:39:33 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

It is a subject of those rights not specifically given to the federal government, and therefore reserved to the states.

State law defines marriage. Which is PRECISELY why any STATE law defining marriage as exclusively between a man and a woman is a direct violation of the 14th Amendment.

Well, not so fast. Before the Court could invoke the Equal Protection clause, it first had to redefine marriage. From the ruling:

From their beginning to their most recent page, the annals of human history reveal the transcendent importance of marriage. The lifelong union of a man and a woman always has promised nobility and dignity to all persons, without regard to their station in life. Marriage is sacred to those who live by their religions and offers unique fulfillment to those who find meaning in the secular realm. Its dynamic allows two people to find a life that could not be found alone, for a marriage becomes greater than just the two persons. Rising from the most basic human needs, marriage is essential to our most profound hopes and aspirations.

The centrality of marriage to the human condition makes it unsurprising that the institution has existed for millennia and across civilizations. Since the dawn of history, marriage has transformed strangers into relatives, binding families and societies together. Confucius taught that marriage lies at the foundation of government. 2 Li Chi: Book of Rites 266 (C. Chai & W. Chai eds., J. Legge transl. 1967). This wisdom was echoed centuries later and half a world away by Cicero, who wrote, "The first bond of society is marriage; next, children; and then the family." See De Officiis 57 (W. Miller transl. 1913). There are untold references to the beauty of marriage in religious and philosophical texts spanning time, cultures, and faiths, as well as in art and literature in all their forms. It is fair and necessary to say these references were based on the understanding that marriage is a union between two persons of the opposite sex.

That history is the beginning of these cases...


Source

It does not seem impertinent or burdened with ill-will to inquire from whence the Court obtained the right to change the clear and plain meaning of a law by arbitrarily redefining its terms.

K.




I might be going out on a bit of a limb here but I would wager that 80-90% of all laws we have today, all 62 million of them, are purely arbituary in nature.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: 14th Ammendment - 7/22/2015 9:10:57 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
How many people repeat the cozy heart warming words: Men create governments to protect their rights.

Yep thats the way it was. Land owners on behalf of themselves and their tenants would contract with the king that the king would maintain an army and constables and protect them, their property, life, etc in exchange for roughly 10% taxes from the proceeds of their farms etc with the agreement they would be subject to the kings authority.

That legal theory is based in common law, the same law that was brought over and is the foundation for US law, and the same legal theory under which the revolution was fought. Its common knowledge for everyone but the 7th district supreme court apparently.



quote:


THE FIRST DUTY OF GOVERNMENT: PROTECTION, LIBERTY AND THE FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT

Steven J. Heyman

DUKE LAW JOURNAL [Vol. 41:507

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3172&context=dlj

INTRODUCTION
I. THE RIGHT TO PROTECTION IN THE ANGLO-AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL TRADITION


A. The Origins of the Right to Protection 512
1. The Common Law Tradition and the Original Contract 513
2. The Social Contract and Locke’s Second Treatise... 514
3. Eighteenth-Century Constitutional Theory 516
B. The Right to Protection in Early American ' Constitutionalism 520
1. The Revolution 521
2. The First State Constitutions 522
3. The Federal Constitution 524
C. Protection and Liberty 526

II. THE LEGAL MEANING OF PROTECTION 530
A. The Status of Freeman and Citizen 531
B. Recognition of Substantive Rights 532
C. Enforcement of Legal Rights 534
1. Self-Defense 534
2. Civil Protection 534
3. Criminal Protection 536
4. Prevention of Injury 537
a. Security of the peace 537
b. Protection by peace officers 538
c. Communal liability 541
d. The creation of modem police forces 543
5. Conclusion 545

III. THE FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT 545
A. The Need for a Federal Guarantee of the Right to Protection 546
B. The Adoption of the Civil Rights Act and the Fourteenth Amendment 550
C. The Right to Protection Under the Civil Rights Act and
the Fourteenth Amendment 554
1. The Privileges or Immunities Clause 555
2. The Due Process Clause 557
3. The Equal Protection Clause 563
D. The Meaning of Protection 566
1. Civil Protection 566
2. Criminal Protection 567
3. Prevention of Injury 569
IV. CONCLUSION 570


I. THE RIGHT TO PROTECTION IN THE ANGLO-AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONAL TRADITION

A. The Origins of the Right to Protection

“[E]very member of society,” asserted the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776, “hath a right to be protected in the enjoyment of life, liberty and property.”

This declaration—which was soon echoed in the constitutions of Delaware, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire —expressed a fundamental principle of American constitutional thought by the time of the Revolution.


The right to protection did not originate in America, however, but was inherited from English constitutionalism. Its roots lay in the common law tradition and natural rights theory. It is necessary to explore these sources to understand the concept of protection in American constitutional thought.

1. The Common Law Tradition and the Original Contract. The right to protection has deep roots in the English legal tradition. Under traditional doctrine, every loyal subject was entitled to the king’s protection. This doctrine received its classic expression in the writings of Sir Edward Coke.

2. The Social Contract and Locke’s Second Treatise. The second major source of the right to protection in Anglo-American constitutionalism was the theory of natural rights and the social contract. The most influential exposition of this theory was John Locke’s Second Treatise of Government. Whereas Coke based the right to protection on the natural bond of allegiance between king and subject, Locke based it on the consent of free individuals to enter into society and establish government for the preservation of their natural rights.




“The first duty of the Government is to afford protection to its citizens.”




INTRODUCTION

On January 22, 1983, Joshua DeShaney, age four, was brought to the emergency room of a Wisconsin hospital with multiple bruises and abrasions. Suspecting child abuse, the hospital staff notified the County Department of Social Services, which immediately obtained custody of Joshua, only to return him to his father’s home a few days later. Over the next fifteen months, the Department received constant reports indicating that Joshua was being seriously abused, but it failed to take any further action to protect him. On March 8, 1984, Joshua’s father beat him so severely that he suffered massive brain damage, leaving him profoundly retarded and confined to an institution for the rest of his life.

In DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, the Supreme Court ruled that the Department’s failure to protect Joshua did not violate the Federal Constitution. Chief Justice Rehnquist maintained that nothing in the language or history of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment required a state to protect its citizens from private violence. That clause, he observed, “is phrased as a limitation”: “It forbids the State itself to deprive individuals of life, liberty, or property without ‘due process of law,’ but its language cannot fairly be extended to impose an affirmative obligation on the State” to protect these interests “against invasion by private actors.” This interpretation was reinforced by the history of the Clause, which indicated that “ts purpose was to protect the people from the State, not to ensure that the State protected them from each other.”

The broader constitutional theory underlying this interpretation was articulated by Judge Richard Posner of the Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit. According to Posner, the Constitution is “a charter of negative rather than positive liberties,” a view that is compelled by the original understanding:

The men who wrote the Bill of Rights were not concerned that government might do too little for the people but that it might do too much to them. The Fourteenth Amendment, adopted in 1868 at the height of laissez-faire thinking, sought to protect Americans from op¬pression by state government, not to secure them basic governmental services.

DeShaney thus has crucial implications for constitutional law and theory. In addition to rejecting a constitutional right to protection, DeShaney implies that the Constitution protects only negative liberty— freedom from governmental oppression—while imposing no positive ob¬ligations on government.

This Article challenges DeShaney on its own ground—the original understanding of the Fourteenth Amendment. As I shall argue, the congressional debates on the Fourteenth Amendment show that establishing a federal constitutional right to protection was one of the central pur¬poses of the Amendment.

The principal aim of the Fourteenth Amendment was not to create new rights, but rather to incorporate into the Federal Constitution the fundamental rights that individuals already possessed under general constitutional theory, but that the states had failed to enforce adequately.

For this reason, the Fourteenth Amendment must be understood against the background of constitutional and legal theory before the Civil War.

In Part I, I trace the origins and development of the right to protection in Anglo-American constitutionalism. With its roots in the common law tradition and social contract theory, the right to protection in life, liberty, and property became a central principle of American constitutional thought by the time of the Revolution. This principle was ex¬pressed in the first state constitutions and was implicit in the Federal Constitution, which divided the function of protection between the state and federal governments.

Part I also explores the conception of liberty in American constitutional and legal thought between the Revolution and the Civil War. Contrary to Posner’s view, the classical conception of liberty was not merely negative, but had a crucial positive dimension—the protection of individual rights under law.

As I show in Part II, the right to protection was not merely a matter of constitutional theory, but a doctrine with concrete legal meaning. In the common law tradition, the protection of the law implied both the recognition of fundamental rights by law, and the enforcement of such rights by government. The paradigmatic instance was the government’s duty to protect individuals against violence. By the middle of the nineteenth century, this duty was understood to include not only the enforcement of civil and criminal law with respect to injuries already committed, but also the responsibility to prevent violence before it occurred.

In Part m, I turn to the congressional debates over the Fourteenth Amendment. As these debates show, the members of the Thirty-Ninth Congress fully shared the classical view on the right to protection. The widespread violence and discrimination against blacks in the South after the Civil War convinced most Republicans that the states could not be relied upon to protect the fundamental rights of all persons. A central purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to compel the states to fulfill this obligation, by incorporating it into the Federal Constitution and em¬powering the national government to enforce it.






Of course I absolutely disagree with the 14th amendment, especially its unlawful enactment not from the 'secondary' or 'accessory' purpose, the aspect of rights protection, but the gubmint solution to create wards of state (14th) which operates in the final analysis for their own overlord purposes by reducing all rights to privileges subject to state which ultimately are less than we had prior to the revolution.

Hence the deshaney case as one example where the supreme court ruled that the gubmint has no obligation to protect your rights despite it should still have been covered under negligence theory.

The 14th amendment was a giant step backwards legalizing the creation of a totalitarian police state at the behest of the gubmint.

This examination of law demonstrates how your rights are absorbed, that is removed from you and placed under the state over the course of years and ill-gotten decisions made by judges which we are to believe are for the 'people' and accept as supreme.

Long story short, I believe that it should be obvious the gubmint wants/gets it both ways and the people are left out in the cold.

comments?




ps: sorry for the long quote, I felt it was needed to clearly express the several elements of the premise I am making.






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/22/2015 9:26:13 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)
Profile   Post #: 69
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: 14th Ammendment Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.105