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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 12:01:34 PM   
missiesfavourite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey


http://louderwithcrowder.com/liberals-now-say-american-revolution-a-bad-thing-15-reasons-theyre-wrong/

What do you think?


after a bit of internet research

historical facts that bloke got definitely wrong:

1st democratic republic in modern times:

Corsica in 1755

(not counting the United provinces of the Netherlands, and Switzerland, since 1648)

1st motor car: Carl Benz , patented in 1886
(preceded by 1st motorcycle by Gottlieb Daimler 1885)

definitely not american any of them

1st motor flight

disputed: maybe by Gustav Weißkopf alias Gustave Whitehead in 1901




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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 12:08:21 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Pretty much what the right does is make up shit,lol,the more ridiculous the better and sells it to America`s easiest marks.

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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 1:26:07 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:


IMHO,if the king had cut the Colonists in and gave them a piece of the action, the Colonials would have happily done business for years and years longer.

The thing that really tipped it though was when the king sent an army with orders to achieve a complete ,un concessional crushing of the rebellion. And then sent another and another.

Fun fact, malaria killed more British soldiers than Colonials did.


You could well be right, Owner. I don't know.

Brits are taught very little about the American War of Independence (as it's more commonly known here). My feeling is that Brits generally feel about that issue as they do about the emancipation of slaves, then about the right to vote for working class men, then women .... that it's one of those things in history that was just bound to have happened, and self-evidently should have happened. After the USA *became* the USA ... well, from then on that was American history, not British history.

As for the comment about malaria - yes, that doesn't surprise me. Such diseases have killed off a lot more people in a lot more wars than history generally makes a big deal of recording. I've heard comparable stories about cholera in the Crimea and the outbreak of Spanish influenza here after WW1. Oh well, obviously Nature likes to get her look-in: it's not fair that only humans get to kill humans, she wants her fun and games, too.



< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 7/4/2015 1:27:22 PM >

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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 3:05:31 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.progressive.org/zinn070309.html

Yes

http://louderwithcrowder.com/liberals-now-say-american-revolution-a-bad-thing-15-reasons-theyre-wrong/

No

What do you think?

I think it was a high price to pay, but the payoff allowed others in the world to gain their freedom from their monarchs. The job isn't done throughout the world. But we started it.



It wasn't really a revolution was it? A group of Englishmen had a falling out with the Crown. Similar to our Civil War, sometimes termed the Glorious Revolution, where some Englishmen had a falling out with the Crown.

Values didn't particularly change, there wasn't an upheaval in society. The principles of Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights, John Lilburne's idea of Natural Rights etc continued to inform society.

United States independence certainly wasn't a bad thing as it was the right outcome for obvious reasons, but a revolution?!


< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 7/4/2015 3:06:59 PM >

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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 3:11:59 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missiesfavourite

who knows ...
but for sure it is history

neither is a republic a guaranteed paradise on earth nor a monarchy inconclusive with democracy or worse per se than a republic

the english revolution is a good example that a republic can easily be turned into a dictatorship bringing nothing but suffering and terror to its neighbours as well as citizens under the auspices of religion and superiority

at least england stuck to the lesson that one oliver cromwell was enough for centuries

today's monarchies in europe have monarchs in a role comparable to representation presidents - and most of them do a far better job


Hello Missie,

Yes, Oliver Cromwell didn't exactly practice what he preached. Although, again, I wouldn't call it a revolution. The Russian Revolution, now there was a revolution, a complete upheaval within society.

A change in terms of where the power lies, but not much else changes in society, is no more than a falling out or a parting of the ways.

A similar contrast is the German Reformation and the English Reformation. The Germans truly did have a reformation; the English didn't have a reformation - we simply fell out with the Pope and maintained many catholic practices.


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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 3:21:27 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

at least england stuck to the lesson that one oliver cromwell was enough for centuries
OMG Yes!!!!!



In certain ways, yes, in other ways, no.

A more acceptable face in Churchill came along and him and a few more war types ruined this country's centuries of innovation and hard work, and a spot of theft here and there, granted; in the lead up to WW1.

Him and a few more in 1914 didn't wear the mask of despots, but they willingly and gratuitously embarked on a tragic mistake for this country.

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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 3:43:55 PM   
missiesfavourite


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Joined: 5/31/2011
Status: offline 		hello NG

ok - a civil war, then chopping his majesty's royal head off, then the parliamentary army on summer holidays in Ireland - not quite a revolution but close

I agree on your point on reformation although Henry's dissolution of the monasteries was quite a revolution then - according to your definition - in making the landed gentry what is was/(is?)






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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 3:55:12 PM   
MercTech


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Status: offline 		Just a thought... if you like "what if" stories; try the book "The Two Georges".

What if George III had not listened to Lord North and addressed the colonial grievances? Harry Turtledove does a wonderful job of painting a picture of North America where the Americas are still part of the Empire. And the Iroquois Confederation is still an allied country based in the Ohio River Valley.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Georges

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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 4:26:39 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missiesfavourite

hello NG

ok - a civil war, then chopping his majesty's royal head off, then the parliamentary army on summer holidays in Ireland - not quite a revolution but close

I agree on your point on reformation although Henry's dissolution of the monasteries was quite a revolution then - according to your definition - in making the landed gentry what is was/(is?)






Missie,

The Dissolution was Thomas Cromwell's idea, a keen Protestant who saw a dual purpose in politics and a way round the King having to raise taxes through consent. Cromwell stole possessions and money for the King to fight useless wars.

Henry did not renounce his Catholicism. He remained a catholic until the day he died.

It wasn't like Germany, nor Scotland, where they hoped to sweep the board and start again with a renewed set of values.


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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 4:38:19 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.progressive.org/zinn070309.html

Yes

http://louderwithcrowder.com/liberals-now-say-american-revolution-a-bad-thing-15-reasons-theyre-wrong/

No

What do you think?

I think it was a high price to pay, but the payoff allowed others in the world to gain their freedom from their monarchs. The job isn't done throughout the world. But we started it.


Reading the article, Ken, some of that is demonstrably true.

The idea of Natural Rights is not an American invention, but is true that it was the first government that attempted to base a system around that principle. So, credit where it's due.

It wasn't lost on people over here, and some, obviously radicals and the like, and the odd conservative such as Edmund Burke; were overjoyed that the United States had gained independence and termed it 'the next step in human liberty', albeit underpinned by English ideals.

It is also true that Americans have generally enjoyed a higher material standard of living.

What did raise an eyebrow was something about giving the world baseball and 'football'. There's only you lot who play these games, man! The rest of the world plays our games: football, cricket and rugby.


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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 4:56:28 PM   
missiesfavourite


Posts: 53
Joined: 5/31/2011
Status: offline 		even they will learn over time that football is rightfully called football because one uses a foot to play a ball ...

I am sure there is still hope

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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 5:12:23 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missiesfavourite

even they will learn over time that football is rightfully called football because one uses a foot to play a ball ...

I am sure there is still hope



Not to spoil the moment, but American Football is an off-shoot of rugby and the game's full title is Rugby Football. So, they're not the only ones connecting the word football to a game that seems to have nothing to do with football!

Anyway, speaking of football, you'll have noticed the England lasses have just beaten Germany in the World Cup?!




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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 5:17:46 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I always thought the Glorious Revolution was to do with James II and not Cromwell. Certainly England had overthrown the Royals long before the War Of Independance. After Cromwell died, his son Richard screwed up and like most rebellions, ours fell apart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_date_of_transition_to_republican_system_of_government


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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 5:24:04 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I always thought the Glorious Revolution was to do with James II and not Cromwell. Certainly England had overthrown the Royals long before the War Of Independance. After Cromwell died, his son Richard screwed up and like most rebellions, ours fell apart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_date_of_transition_to_republican_system_of_government




I think we're losing track of the Cromwell's, Kings, Glorious Revolutions and Henry VIIIs.

But, you are right: the so-called Glorious Revolution was 40 odd years after the Civil War.

Back to the OP:

I can't see how United States independence has been a mistake.

They've been pretty successful, which I think is demonstrable, and they've generally but not always been a good force in the World.

Can't really see a problem.


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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 5:29:42 PM   
missiesfavourite


Posts: 53
Joined: 5/31/2011
Status: offline 		yes - Gary Lineker was wrong




< Message edited by missiesfavourite -- 7/4/2015 5:48:35 PM >

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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 5:32:04 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missiesfavourite

yes - Gary Linecker was wrong





'Bout time we had our day in the sun with the Germans! Doesn't happen very often these days so we'll grab what we can.




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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 5:34:53 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I dont see it as a problem either. Although it did take a while for them to get up to speed on the slavery issue and "all men are created equal" thingy. That said, I think its an hillarious bit of irony, given the current American right see anyone who doesnt agree with them as a leftist radical. I think they are losing sight of long held ideals.

Despite me voting for Maggie, I am still considered a commie/socialist etc by some, it would be good if they could get some sort of clue before trying to have a debate.


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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 5:47:46 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I dont see it as a problem either. Although it did take a while for them to get up to speed on the slavery issue and "all men are created equal" thingy. That said, I think its an hillarious bit of irony, given the current American right see anyone who doesnt agree with them as a leftist radical. I think they are losing sight of long held ideals.

Despite me voting for Maggie, I am still considered a commie/socialist etc by some, it would be good if they could get some sort of clue before trying to have a debate.




There's some truth in that and even as late as WW2, the United States authorities and soldiers brought with them their system of segregation and attempted to impose it in England. US soldiers were handed leaflets before they crossed the drink basically saying don't be surprised when the English (and Welsh too in reality) treat black soldiers as equals.

I think by and large the impression I get from this board is that most appreciate it hasn't all been rosy in the garden.

There isn't a country on this planet that doesn't have a tainted past of some description, so it boils down to a question of degree and I think their all-round record stands up to most all things considered.

On the Maggie thing, most are liberals anyway. They support a free market and all-round liberal economic policies. I can count on four hands, if by freak of nature I had another pair, the number of posters I've come across in 7 years who I thought spoke like conservatives. There used to be that Terminator bloke, Chaingang, I can't remember the lad's name who always spoke a lot of sense about 4 years ago - thick set lad - name escapes me, FargleBargle, Ron of today's group - and I can't think of that many more.



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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 6:53:06 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Despite me voting for Maggie

Just tell folks you were spurred by ardent feminism.

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RE: Was the American Revolution a Mistake - 7/4/2015 9:55:36 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Q. Was the American Revolution a mistake?

A. No.

It's never a mistake for a people to exert their right to self determination. OTOH colonialism, and other forms of subjugating indigenous people is always wrong.

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