quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

In a world where it's now conventional wisdom we can never know why people did what they did, is it subversive to quote them?
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/why-do-people-believe-myths-about-the-confederacy-because-our-textbooks-and-monuments-are-wrong/ar-AAcrwk1
History isn't written by the winners, it's written by those who try hardest and longest to do the rewriting. Something fully grasped by Southern apologists, Josef Goebbels and the RNC.

My memory of the context of the A. Lincoln quotes is that they were public positions taken as efforts to pre-compromise on situations he needed to lower the energy level of. And about as effective as Obama's similar efforts to find 'common ground' with present 'take no prisoners' opponents.
His statements on his moral objections to slavery were well known and constant ammunition for pro-slavery publicists. His writings outlined plans to contain slavery to existing states and work to erode, not abolish it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_and_slavery

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

There may never be a consensus on the precise causes of the Civil War. Perhaps that's best left to historians to argue about.

Read this:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/06/the-confederacys-final-retreat

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Saying the Jim Crow behavior and practices started later is delusional given the massive repression of the anti-bellum South. Violence against any slave was open, vicious and community wide if thought at all rebellious, a shadow of post war intimidation by the KKK. Not only codified in law but not even remarked on other than to encourage more at the sign of any social organization to raise Negro rights or treatment. There was only a brief interregnum post war with the presence of Union troops and the elevation of Negros to public participation and even public office.

quote:

The Jim Crow laws were racial segregation state and local laws enacted after the Reconstruction period in Southern United States that continued in force until 1965 mandating de jure racial segregation in all public facilities in Southern U.S. states (of the former Confederacy), starting in 1890 with a "separate but equal" status for African Americans. Conditions for African Americans were consistently inferior and underfunded compared to those provided for white Americans. This decision institutionalized a number of economic, educational and social disadvantages. De jure segregation mainly applied to the Southern United States, while Northern segregation was generally de facto — patterns of segregation in housing enforced by covenants, bank lending practices and job discrimination, including discriminatory union practices for decades.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Jim crow practiced and jim crow legally practiced are not the same thing....

Considering all the belly aching over your symbol of hate....it isn`t hard to imaging the bigots and racists ignored the law and kept on attacking and harming blacks...just like the 200 hears before....

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Saying the Jim Crow behavior and practices started later is delusional given the massive repression of the anti-bellum South. Violence against any slave was open, vicious and community wide if thought at all rebellious, a shadow of post war intimidation by the KKK. Not only codified in law but not even remarked on other than to encourage more at the sign of any social organization to raise Negro rights or treatment. There was only a brief interregnum post war with the presence of Union troops and the elevation of Negros to public participation and even public office.

quote:

I know, I know, postmodernists like to jump in early with propaganda, but I did say self respecting historians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Elevated by Union troops? Quit the horseshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Gee K ,what`s so horrible and shameful about the confederate flag that your ilk photo shopping it to attack democrats? Irony?

At some point your party is going to have to decide.Is the con-flag ok or is it something shameful and repulsive......dinesh seems to be the latter.

Put the bottle down, bozo. I am neither a conservative nor a Republican nor a fan of Bobby Jindal, and what you keep calling the "confederate flag" was never the flag of the Confederacy.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Religious conservatives are keeping the spirit of Jim Crow laws alive & well, just changing their targets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Nobody is claiming Lincoln was perfect, He was fairly desperate to save the Union. His plan had virtues we still might desire, a less 'racially' diverse nation, if still tense with religious and ethnic stresses. It was unworkable, of course, Free Blacks probably wouldn't go and had community protectors in the North. Who would take the population of slaves that didn't speak the languages and had lost connection to hereditary clans (The basic social unit of much of W. Africa) from time over generations and mixing of groups from slaveholder controlled mating. Evidence Lincoln and the general Abolitionist sentiment of the country still held Negros as inferior doesn't follow my reading, but is arguable. Such propaganda never even slowed from the South and certain voices. I don't think Northern sentiment was as charitable to 'uncivilized' native tribes, more evidence times change and attitudes evolve regionally and nationally.