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RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 5:51:35 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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Clearly don't know as not American but thought I'd add this:

While I was over there I went to a couple of sites at Franklin and Shiloh. Thought Franklin was excellent by the way, the guide very good.

Bought a couple of books and read them back to front a couple of times. Very interesting.

Both written by Southerners, Edward Ayers one of 'em, can't remember the name of the other.

Both argue that slavery was an aspect but one of a few in a wider issue of values and self-autonomy, and as the war went on reasons were fluid and opinion hardened.

Pretty persuasive arguments.

One of them wrote on Virginia and included a study of the people of the parts that area who fought. He concluded that there was no correlation between the number of areas, is it counties you have over there?, holding salves and the number of people who fought

They also included memoirs from the people who fought and these memoirs don't mention slavery, although I suppose the memoirs could have been picked to suit the story. But, from the comments of soldiers who fought, they seem to have seen themselves as different from 'the Yankees' in values and culture and fought to preserve that, as well as a belief in that they were fighting for liberty.

I've noticed over the last few days politicians have been quoted to determine why people fought, but perhaps the most instructive notes from the time would be those of ordinary soldiers.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 21

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 5:59:48 AM

KenDckey

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Joined: 5/31/2006
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I don't personally like the idea that they ever took an honor from the 45th Infantry Division to the OK Nations. The nations had brigades on both sides during the civil war.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 22

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 7:24:38 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Read more at http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/28/confederate-flag-history/#IrxbYRSK033D4MRu.99[/color]

THAT'S what all the fuss is about.

So yeah, take the flag down.

So using the logic in your post should we tear down the US (North) for leading the way in creating laws in support of racism right up to the war? In fact I cant find where any of this stuff was repealed in the SAL. Hmmm.....

By authority of Congress. The public statutes at large of the United States ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=ditRP6NRjwoC&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=Act+of+April+14,+1802,+ch.+28&source=bl&ots=xVJkUICWiM&sig=VEDfJbNAFMoo30SY_yWDKA6-Hhc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=my2dVYX2GtDYggSGr72QCg&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=white&f=false

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/8/2015 7:52:07 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 23

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 7:43:37 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Both argue that slavery was an aspect but one of a few in a wider issue of values and self-autonomy, and as the war went on reasons were fluid and opinion hardened.

They also included memoirs from the people who fought and these memoirs don't mention slavery, although I suppose the memoirs could have been picked to suit the story. But, from the comments of soldiers who fought, they seem to have seen themselves as different from 'the Yankees' in values and culture and fought to preserve that, as well as a belief in that they were fighting for liberty.

Same thing with most history, as I pointed out on the previous page. How its sold to the public after "WHITE"washing and the real reasons are entirely 2 different things.

There is no documentation how this disappeared, it just vanished but all the books and printings in the various legislatures did not. BUSTED again!

There was a lot of hanky panky going on in the government at the time. the Original ratified 13th amendment magically disappeared as if they really thought they could get away with it, and I guess we are expected to forgive their continual defiance and destruction of the constitution covenant.

The irony of course is that they will put any label on anything that we were not there to witness personally. revolution, 1812, ww1, ww2, waco, 911, the hit on osama bin laden and the beat goes on!

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 7/8/2015 7:50:20 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 24

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 7:52:46 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I had to memorize this when I was a kid:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.....

The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history…the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination — that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves. ~H.L. Mencken

K.

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 25

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 8:08:25 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Crap? You mean over the Confederate flag?

Since you and your buddy like "interjecting reality," let's have a look:

The first Confederate national flag was widely disliked for a number of reasons (primarily its aesthetic resemblance to the United States flag and its attendant confusion with the U.S. flag on the battlefield), so on 1 May 1863 the Confederate States of America adopted a new national flag known as “the Stainless Banner,” said by its designer to represent the “supremacy of the white man”:

Well after all, it was "science" yanno...

Comparison between the white and "coloured" races was becoming a significant and controversial question in England in the early 1840s. Orthodox views based on the Bible or the Enlightenment had taught the fundamental unity of mankind. But the new science of comparative "ethnology" that measured cranial capacity in white and "coloured" skulls raised issues about evolution and progress. Perceived differences in brain size and intellectual capacity... [etc., etc.] ~Source

...and a view to be found on both sides.

I will say, then, that I am not nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. ~Abraham Lincoln, Fourth Lincoln-Douglas Debate, September 18, 1858

Finally, from your source:

Herein lies the problem with symbols: They have no inherent meanings; they have only whatever meanings people choose to read into them, and different people can associate very different meanings with the same symbol.

People will see what they want to see. It says more about them than the flag.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/8/2015 8:41:05 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 26

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 8:25:55 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

They also included memoirs from the people who fought and these memoirs don't mention slavery, although I suppose the memoirs could have been picked to suit the story. But, from the comments of soldiers who fought, they seem to have seen themselves as different from 'the Yankees' in values and culture and fought to preserve that, as well as a belief in that they were fighting for liberty.

Exactly. The Confederate forces weren't politicians, or mercenaries hired by rich slave-owners. They were just people like you and me who fought and died to defend the lands and homes that they loved. Most Southerners never even owned a slave. They just don't like being told what to do.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/8/2015 8:29:38 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 27

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 8:50:37 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I had to memorize this when I was a kid:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.....

The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history…the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination — that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves. ~H.L. Mencken

I wouldn't agree with this entirely. In practice, the Confederate government operated more like a centralized dictatorship under Jeff Davis. They didn't exactly practice what they preached in terms of states' rights or self-determination either. Historians might question whether the Confederacy would have even survived for very long if they had won the war. Without the war to unite them, they likely would have quickly fractured and broke apart even further.

Lincoln wasn't just referring to the causes of the war, but also addressing whether the nation can "endure" and whether or not the government is viable so that it doesn't "perish from the earth." A government can't support self-determination or the rights of citizens if it can't survive.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 28

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 9:02:02 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Not sure what you are looking for here Ken... Are you asking opinion on reparations? Other than that I can't see where there can be much disagreement with the rest of your opinions.

I would think affirmative action was the route and the purpose for reparations. Anything else would be impossible to determine and administer. I can see where some white families, mine included, benefited from slavery...but only before the war. After... they lost everything and it took generations to regain some of it back. This is how the family had to give up 4 plantations and 8000 acres of land in S. Carolina and become dirt farmers in Missouri.

The bottom line is politically reparations will not come about in my lifetime and I believe it is a dead issue.

Butch
la

Many of my ancestors were still in Europe so they are exempt.
Others lived in free states so they are exempt from guilt.
The rest were on the bad side of a nearly genocidal war.
Blacks (9th and 10th cavalry) participated in this war and are a still source of pride for blacks.
On net if there is a debt here it is too me not from me.

PS I think it is time that people quit holding 150 year old grudges.

That's a problem with us humans, we hold grudges far past when it should have ended. That all the sides in the conflict sit down, eat food together and make friendships. Or else, we as Americans will become like the Israelis and the Palestinians. We dont really care who started it, why, or if everyone has blood on their hands; we just want to hate for the sake of hating.

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 29

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 9:11:35 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I wouldn't agree with this entirely....

Fair enough. I don't disagree with you entirely either. I was just sayin, that's all.

K.

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 30

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 9:18:41 AM

KenDckey

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Joined: 5/31/2006
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quote:

That's a problem with us humans, we hold grudges far past when it should have ended. That all the sides in the conflict sit down, eat food together and make friendships. Or else, we as Americans will become like the Israelis and the Palestinians. We dont really care who started it, why, or if everyone has blood on their hands; we just want to hate for the sake of hating.

What I intrepret from this comment is that we hold people today responsible for the sins and missteps of our ancestors. What I don't understand is why don't we hold this misdirected accountability against black or native american slave holders and those who fought for the Confederacy. Surely, if you hold one class accountable then you must hold all classes accountable, even if that it is wrong to hold anyone accountable now

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 31

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 10:14:44 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

OMG... the Stars and Stripes were held as a symbol of racism... I believe it should immediately be removed from the Capital.

Maybe we should have a flag thread on what our new politically correct flag should look like.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 32

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 10:48:33 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OMG... the Stars and Stripes were held as a symbol of racism... I believe it should immediately be removed from the Capital.

Maybe we should have a flag thread on what our new politically correct flag should look like.

Butch

Half of it should be the rainbow flag, and the other half the pan African flag. That way it would represent everyone in the nation who matters.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 33

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 11:02:29 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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Here is one you may like Bama

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 34

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 11:30:00 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Here is one you may like Bama

Butch

Lol but the one I suggested would be acceptable to far more people, and for the reason I gave, though they wouldn't say that in the open.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 35

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 11:31:38 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Here is one you may like Bama

Butch

I was in a history class where one of the students actually said that the country was built by blacks and that white people didn't do anything to build it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 36

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 7:42:28 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OMG... the Stars and Stripes were held as a symbol of racism... I believe it should immediately be removed from the Capital.

Maybe we should have a flag thread on what our new politically correct flag should look like.

At the McPherson Complex down here in Ocala they fly the American flag on the tallest flagpole, and then flanking it on either side the flags of Britain, France, Spain, and the Confederacy, all of which at one point ruled Florida. In the photo below the Confederate flag is absent because Interim County Administrator Bill Kauffman unilaterally ordered it taken down, but on July 7th the Marion County Commission voted unanimously to restore it.

K.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 37

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 8:44:40 PM

Dvr22999874

Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
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Surely, MOST (if not all) national flags could be regarded as racist, or at the very least, chauvinistic ?

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 38

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 9:04:22 PM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Surely, MOST (if not all) national flags could be regarded as racist, or at the very least, chauvinistic ?

if you mean that if at some point in time over the last few melinium that someone held a slave or looked down on women, then you are quite correct.

(in reply to Dvr22999874)

Post #: 39

RE: Civil War - 7/8/2015 9:41:31 PM

Dvr22999874

Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline

chauvinism originally had nothing to do with looking down on women..........check out Nicolas Chauvin. I didn't mention slavery..........I said 'Racist'.......try combining racism and chauvinism in it's original form and you may get an idea of what I mean.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 40

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