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ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

LOL...................Thanks Bama but no I don't. I spent many years at sea and a few years marching with the devil, so I had plenty of time to read and study and analyse. I guess I just didn't read the right books. I like reading the opinions of some of the EXPERTS on here though...................X being the unknown quantity...................spurt being a drip under pressure. *smile*

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

It doesn't necessarily imply a belief in superiority, nor does it automatically mean it has to be aggressive. But it does carry a sense of favoritism and a belief that "our people" are more important than anyone who is not. It's not universally applied to all of humanity, which is where it differs from humanism.

Racism is kind of an offshoot of the same basic idea, except that it was practiced on other continents. Hitler invading Poland, taking over the country, abusing and mistreating the people, taking away their rights and freedom, mass murdering them - that's an example of nationalism. European colonists invading 200+ nations on the American continent, taking over their countries, abusing and mistreating the people, taking away their rights and freedom, mass murdering them - that's an example of racism. Yet it seems to be strikingly similar.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

It doesn't necessarily imply a belief in superiority, nor does it automatically mean it has to be aggressive. But it does carry a sense of favoritism and a belief that "our people" are more important than anyone who is not. It's not universally applied to all of humanity, which is where it differs from humanism.

Racism is kind of an offshoot of the same basic idea, except that it was practiced on other continents. Hitler invading Poland, taking over the country, abusing and mistreating the people, taking away their rights and freedom, mass murdering them - that's an example of nationalism. European colonists invading 200+ nations on the American continent, taking over their countries, abusing and mistreating the people, taking away their rights and freedom, mass murdering them - that's an example of racism. Yet it seems to be strikingly similar.

We'd have to disagree on this one.

An example of liberal Nationalism would be Woodrow Wilson's policy of self-determination, which clearly aimed to protect against oppressive regimes and focused on a common human theme no matter where you are in the world: liberty. This wasn't merely applied to 'our people', and had no basis in genetics.

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Liberal Nationalism simply advocates that people need a national identity to lead autonomous lives, but as human beings are inherently concerned with liberty then wherever that national identity is in the world it will be underpinned by notions of liberty and general liberal values.

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Would this really be defined as "nationalism," though?

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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Liberal Nationalism simply advocates that people need a national identity to lead autonomous lives, but as human beings are inherently concerned with liberty then wherever that national identity is in the world it will be underpinned by notions of liberty and general liberal values.

Kids doing Politics at school here have to deal with the various nationalisms in the UK: English, British, Irish, Welsh and Scottish. The main way they're taught to separate out the types is in terms of liberal nationalism on the one side and right wing nationalism on the other. Pretty clear examples of both are evident for each category, as you might imagine.

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ORIGINAL: Mammiloveshergir

your view of 19th century "german" nationalism is quite simplistic and b/w

for example in the first german parliament in Frankfurt in 1848 polish and czech delegates were invited to join and discuss a future german constitution defining and protecting rights of non-german populations within the "german union" borders of 1815 - the polish sent their delegates whereas the czechs refused (quite comparable to the Irish nationalist policy then)

the 1864 and 1866 wars were to establish a prussian germany to exclude austria and its german population - an odd phenomenon in an age of nationalism

so whatever you consider "german" nationalism is defined by Bismarck's ideas and only his, and he was not interested in german nationalism but prussian domination

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ORIGINAL: Kirata


~ FR ~

Salon jumps the shark...

Let’s make the Confederate flag a hate crime: It is the American swastika and we should recoil it from it in horror

Woof. I think it's time to distinguish between these fucking moonbats and liberal Democrats (they seem to get lumped together overmuch around here). Case in point, over on the Facebook page of Occupy Democrats there's this:



Classy and to the point (their point, but okay) with a touch of wry humor and no rancor.

K.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Liberalism as a unifying force was rejected by Germany, say after the revolutions some time around 1840; ...

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ORIGINAL: Mammiloveshergir


there is a minor flaw in your argument insofar as a "Germany" as a state did not exist until after 1870...

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You won't find much evidence of right wing Nationalism here, Peon, despite your best attempts.

UKIP, for example, isn't right wing Nationalism. It's a form of liberal Nationalism. In fact, it couldn't be closer to the definition of liberal Nationalism.

These days, politics is different shades of Liberalism, with the odd BNP member - how many do they have these days? about 1,000 among 60 million people? - and the odd socialist (again small numbers).

Ultimately, Liberalism won the argument a long time ago. And, what has been discussed on this thread, i.e. 19th century German Nationalism, was an attempt to stem the tide of Liberalism, which ultimately failed.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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You won't find much evidence of right wing Nationalism here, Peon, despite your best attempts.

UKIP, for example, isn't right wing Nationalism. It's a form of liberal Nationalism. In fact, it couldn't be closer to the definition of liberal Nationalism.

These days, politics is different shades of Liberalism, with the odd BNP member - how many do they have these days? about 1,000 among 60 million people? - and the odd socialist (again small numbers).

Ultimately, Liberalism won the argument a long time ago. And, what has been discussed on this thread, i.e. 19th century German Nationalism, was an attempt to stem the tide of Liberalism, which ultimately failed.

Hmm. I'm not at all convinced by UKIP's supposed 'liberal nationalism'. It would help if it a) weren't supported by so many plain anti-immigrants and b) if it could stop its almost-weekly ejection of high-profile party-members who were caught saying something insanely right wing or nutty in some other way. I can only imagine my father, an ex-copper and keen Kipper, spitting in fury at the the label 'liberal'. ("I saw that Oswald Mosley speaking when I was a lad, once. Very impressive he was, son, very impressive."

As for the other right wing groups: yes, I think you're right: the BNP, EDL, etc, etc, etc, get publicity that's way out of proportion to their combined membership numbers. I've always thought that one of the problems they face that, perhaps, looney-righties in the USA don't face, is the class system here. They just come across as oiks, frankly - skinheads who hold British culture in the highest esteem while at the same time apparently having the most minimal acquaintanceship with said culture. However much their views might chime with certain of the right wing upper classes, the latter just aren't going to want to rub shoulders with them.

Do you remember Colonel William Boakes's Democratic White Monarchists, btw? My whole family used to burst out laughing in front of the telly whenever his name appeared at election counts. Those were the days .... ;-)

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I knew it all along, DC: slave owners were actually *goddamned communists*!