RE: Topping from the Bottom

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/18/2006 3:23:32 AM

SoulfulSadism

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While such questions always have subjective answers, the common trends of topping-from-bottom are:
(1) sub being manipulative/engineering things around (2) sub shifting into her own fantasy pleasure space as opposed to 'our space'

in short - it's pretty simple - if the sub starts doing things/behaving/reacting in a manner which my sensors tell me is geared to herself alone, I am out. Nothing wrong with her behaviour - but to me it's then better suited for vanilla relationship with fantasy/kink play, not my Definition of D/s

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/18/2006 4:32:50 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

If you are new, you SHOULD be topping from the bottom. You don't know what you want, you don't know how things feel, there is a great deal you don't know.

Pick up a copy of The Bottoming Book and read it twice.

The thing is, when you are new you don't know enough to pick competent enough partners to allow you to not speak up when and where you feel the need.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom
Heather, I am sure someone as experienced as yourself could run an entire scene from the bottom without an inexperienced top even catching on. That is a compliment on several levels, at least to me.

That said, you already "get" it but a newbie doesn't and what "not topping from the bottom" gets turned into is "do whatever idiotic thing I come up with slut" and so I wrote it as I did hoping to break through the BS crap that goes on.

I'm just trying to square these two posts with each other....

The former suggests that tftb is primarily the realm of newbie subs.

In the second, you're suggesting a sub with experience can/does routinely tftb as though it's a desired goal and outcome.

Personally, I've yet to meet a sub who's happy and content through having even a small level of control over their Dom/me or relationship. Granted I don't know Heather but I just don't see the compliment for her at all, esp as you're now suggesting tftb is a deliberately manipulative ploy.

To the former, a new sub can certainly be a handful when their primary motivation is that they just want to feel the D/s dynamic, often the source of their lifelong fantasies! But experienced subs tftb, too....

To me, the common denominator is not the sub, but the Dom/me - the one charged with leading by word and deed and setting the required standards of behaviour. And when they don't, the sub becomes restless and insecure and unconsciously pushes the boundaries of behaviour; she becomes a brat. If the bratty behaviour is not arrested, the relationship will ultimately fail and every wannabe out there will blame the sub because she's apparently not submissive when the real truth is that the Dom/me failed to take adequate charge!

TFTB is an inevitable outcome for a weak dom/me rather than some sinister goal of rebellious subs - hence I always believe the fault lies with the dom/me! A bratty sub is a wake-up call for any self-respecting Dom/me - it's an inadvertant way for the sub to hold us accountable but I've never seen it as deliberate. So it's a reminder to my dominant self and *NOT*a fault of hers!

Focus.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/18/2006 4:39:06 AM

nephandi

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If i wanted somthing in my relatioship whit a Dominant, i would ask for it, some see that as toppig from the bottom, hell i even hears one refering to it as topping from the bottom that her Dom asked her is the ropes were to tight now and then during the play and if she said yes they are to thigth he loosed them a bit, now that is not toppib from the bottom, that is a safety messure. i am sure many would cosider me topping fro the bottom as i do ask for what i want, i do however not wish to manipulate for them.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/18/2006 4:43:07 AM

smilezz

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When one tries to manipulate the situation, that is topping from the bottom. Just because one asks for a 'want' does not equate to topping.....you may not get what you want, but asking is just that. Asking.

~smilezz~

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/18/2006 4:52:51 AM

wandering4u

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key word is 'manipulate' . If it is an honest request and is denoting a need - no problem.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/18/2006 11:38:56 AM

CrappyDom

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Too many use "don't top from the bottom" to mean "shut up because I cannot handle/understand/deal with whatever issue/problem/mistake you want to talk about"

So I think they should be encouraged to speak up and if the top can't handle it, they don't have the skill yet to do any of this.

As for heather, I was saying she has the ability to communicate her needs in a submissive way and or can tell the difference between a want and a need and has the experience to pick a top who can understand the whole picture.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/18/2006 4:06:40 PM

gentlypleze

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Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond. As I said, I'm new, and learning.... maybe some day I'll get it (whatever it is) .

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/18/2006 6:11:21 PM

afeathr

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From: Southern California
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With all due respect, I know that there are a lot of 'subs' out there that are not truly 'subs' in their heart and soul and are merely in the lifestyle for the play. These are the people that I believe would try to tftb in a heartbeat because it's not about being submissive, it's about meeting their wants/needs/desires... not the Dom's/Master's...

I agree that CrappyDom and Heather are talking a different language than what one would perceive as being true sub/slave behavior, but then again... maybe they aren't. I will admit that I am too new to analyze this properly, but in my mind... tftb would *never* occur with a sub/slave that is true to her desire to serve her Dom/Master.

All in all, however, it's a learning process that has to start somewhere.. maybe tftb is where it begins and then transcends to a more submissive role once the D/s or M/s get to know each others needs/wants/desires better...

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/19/2006 3:52:11 AM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Too many use "don't top from the bottom" to mean "shut up because I cannot handle/understand/deal with whatever issue/problem/mistake you want to talk about"

So I think they should be encouraged to speak up and if the top can't handle it, they don't have the skill yet to do any of this.

As for heather, I was saying she has the ability to communicate her needs in a submissive way and or can tell the difference between a want and a need and has the experience to pick a top who can understand the whole picture.

Actually, that's a bit of an "eye-opener" to me because until I read several posts in this thread, I hadn't even realised just how many reconciled tftb with asking difficult or reluctant questions! I simply call that *communication*.... Is it really that common - a sub being accused of tftb just because she asked a tough question? <sheesh>

I regard tftb as a disrespectful behavioural attitude where, for eg, it's not the questions she may ask but how she asks. Newbies often tftb through sheer impatient anticipation - that familiar "do me, dammit" attitude. Experienced subs do a similar thing but it comes from disrespect moreso than naive impatience. So the newbie is likely to tftb in her first or second scene but is generally easy to rein in once she discovers the consequences but the experienced sub will tftb once she finds over greater time that she has acquired a degree of control.

But nothing I've read here or anywhere changes my firm belief that tftb is really a flaw or failure with the individual dom/me. Subs do it because they can, NOT because they want to. While I understand the *theory* that a respectful sub/slave simply wouldn't tftb, once again D/s is not just about the sub! The Dom/me is the one who sets and enforces the required standards of behaviour and that same respectful sub/slave won't develop a tftb attitude for another reason - that she simply isn't allowed to!

Focus.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/19/2006 4:13:22 AM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: afeathr

With all due respect, I know that there are a lot of 'subs' out there that are not truly 'subs' in their heart and soul and are merely in the lifestyle for the play. These are the people that I believe would try to tftb in a heartbeat because it's not about being submissive, it's about meeting their wants/needs/desires... not the Dom's/Master's...

I agree that CrappyDom and Heather are talking a different language than what one would perceive as being true sub/slave behavior, but then again... maybe they aren't. I will admit that I am too new to analyze this properly, but in my mind... tftb would *never* occur with a sub/slave that is true to her desire to serve her Dom/Master.

All in all, however, it's a learning process that has to start somewhere.. maybe tftb is where it begins and then transcends to a more submissive role once the D/s or M/s get to know each others needs/wants/desires better...

There's people (D & s) in the lifestyle for all manner of personal agenda. But since my experience is 99.9% dealing with female submissives, I can only reiterate that I've NEVER met a sub whose motivation or goal is to top from the bottom. TFTB is a consequence of an unbalanced D/s relationship - the dynamic only succeeds if the Dom/me is truly in charge. And I mean pro-actively in charge, not just given sub "permission" to be....

Human nature being what it is, I'm sure there are "subs" who are only interested in getting "their wants/needs/desires..." met but (not to brag... lol), I think I'd spot that attitude in under 30 seconds. Then we'll really see who gets what needs met - the smart money would probably favour the sound of the safe-word, if she really is that manipulative and not so submissive afterall....

Focus.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/19/2006 4:36:49 AM

CrappyDom

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afeathr,

I can't speak for anyone else but the minute I hear "true" I hear either inexperienced or "genuine fake"...

Focus,

I think topping from the bottom is mainly a concern for tops who can't top.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom - 7/19/2006 5:05:32 AM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom
Focus,

I think topping from the bottom is mainly a concern for tops who can't top.

Yes, that's been my position from my first post and years of experience. It's also why I suggested in my first reply to the OP (a submissive) that tftb needn't be a fear of hers....

Focus.

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Post #: 32