RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negativity

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RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 6:42:59 AM

MariaB

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Whilst I agree, nobody can be happy all of the time, I do believe what DerangedUnit is doing, is making a very concious and committed decision to look on the bright side of life. By the way DU, I don't see this as manipulation, I see it as a commitment; a deal you made with your inner self. I'm a great believer in the saying "smile and the world smiles with you". That's great so long as I can accept that I can't be happy all of the time. Its a little bit like telling yourself you will never be late. Shit happens and sometimes being on time is out of your control. Whilst happiness is a lovely thing, we have to accept that life isn't perfect and with those imperfections we will sometimes feel unhappy. If someone knows we are sad but we continue to smile regardless, are we setting up another persons expectations of how we cope with sad situations?

Someone who is perpetually unhappy is someone who has got stuck in a rut. When life is seen as continuously 'not fair', the doom, gloom and drudgery becomes a familiar place. I do not see this as being manipulative, at least not in the concious sense; I see it as depression.

Someone who uses underhand tactics to manipulate your way of thinking or deliberately damages another persons self worth is emotional manipulation. Its a deliberate covert action where someone loses and someone gains. It could be something as simple as asking someone why they don't get that gap in their teeth fixed or as complicated as manipulating someone's entire character...That sort of Manipulation is deliberately fed from a concious mind into a subconscious mind.

I work in sales and in sales I have to, at least to a degree, entice someone into believing they need this product. I use the word entice but of course what I'm actually doing is manipulating a sale. All good sales people know how to implant that 'fear of loss' in their customers. This sort of manipulation can be fed from a concious mind into another concious mind. In sales we just have to hope that we don't get caught out but we have to accept that we sometimes do

< Message edited by MariaB -- 7/23/2015 6:45:48 AM >

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Post #: 21

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 8:18:11 AM

littleladybug

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This has a very "Stepford Wives" feel to me.

To me, there is a huge difference between generally having a positive attitude and having a smile on all the time-- with the latter feeling very disingenuous to me.

Crap, my partner would wonder what sort of drugs I was on if, when we go to move two pieces of my heavy furniture this weekend, I pumped my fist and said "let's do it". I'd be wondering what drugs *he* was on if he had expected me not to let out a few choice words as we moved a heavy antique bed in 95+ degree weather last weekend. Same goes with picking up after his dog after she's messed in the house.

On the other hand, if I didn't greet him with a kiss and a smile when he came through the door, he'd be wondering (legitimately) what was wrong.

If either one of us has a bad day or something else is going on, there's an expectation that we will share it with the other. Having a smile on all the time, while not sharing what's important in our lives, is very fake to me. It's not a question of being a "downer", IMO it's a simple issue of being a living, feeling human being.

(in reply to NookieNotes)

Post #: 22

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 12:10:03 PM

FrankAr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

How are you defining testing?

Does testing have to be conscious?
Does testing have to be negative?
Is there no example you can think of in which testing someone is a good thing?
Do you believe that you do not, ever test people?

My own thinking is WHY would you want to test someone ? Does not all testing leave lingering doubts in your partner, especially about trust issues ? If I trusted my partner, why test her ? Now if you are looking at testing a person to manipulate the outcome, then what happens after that becomes into the grey area of a relationship.

I would never test my female, why ? Everything that I ask her to do, then she would do it because I have made the decision to benefit the relationship as a whole. If she does not do as she has been informed to do, then there would be a good reason and I would not have to find out why. Example, I come home and some of the house is in a mess, I look into the waste bin and find a pile of tissues, my first thought is that something has happened and she has cried a lot or she has come down with a cold or flu. Do not worry would be my first thought and then get on with cleaning myself and catch up with her soon, simple.

Can you provide examples about testing and then I can see what clashing we would have about them ?

Frank Ar.

_____________________________

I am just me, simple ol me.

Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

(in reply to NookieNotes)

Post #: 23

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 12:19:40 PM

NookieNotes

Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr
Can you provide examples about testing and then I can see what clashing we would have about them ?

This is why I asked you those specific questions:

Does testing have to be conscious?
Does testing have to be negative?
Is there no example you can think of in which testing someone is a good thing?
Do you believe that you do not, ever test people?

My answers:

Does testing have to be conscious? No, it does not. I believe we test each other every day, in hundreds/thousands of little ways. From the first contact, we are testing people, to determine what kind of match they are for us.

Does testing have to be negative? I do not believe it does. As a dominant, I also test my Pet in very many ways, sometimes to see how he will react to a situation that I have not yet had experience with, with him. Sometimes, to see what he is capable of, so that I can train more effectively.

Is there no example you can think of in which testing someone is a good thing? I have given examples. I not only test my Pet, I encourage him to test me, to prove that we are right for each other over and over, to prove that I am a strong woman worth following. To prove that even when we disagree that I respect him and give him the room he needs to be a contributing member of the relationship we have.

Do you believe that you do not, ever test people? Nope. We all test people, in one way or another, regularly.

Again, I asked YOUR views on testing first. I have no interest in attacking your ideas, but instead understanding how you use the word to communicate more effective. Since you asked, I have laid out how I would use that word in this context.

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(in reply to FrankAr)

Post #: 24

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 12:33:56 PM

FrankAr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr
Can you provide examples about testing and then I can see what clashing we would have about them ?

This is why I asked you those specific questions:

Does testing have to be conscious?
Does testing have to be negative?
Is there no example you can think of in which testing someone is a good thing?
Do you believe that you do not, ever test people?

My answers:

Does testing have to be conscious? No, it does not. I believe we test each other every day, in hundreds/thousands of little ways. From the first contact, we are testing people, to determine what kind of match they are for us.

Does testing have to be negative? I do not believe it does. As a dominant, I also test my Pet in very many ways, sometimes to see how he will react to a situation that I have not yet had experience with, with him. Sometimes, to see what he is capable of, so that I can train more effectively.

Is there no example you can think of in which testing someone is a good thing? I have given examples. I not only test my Pet, I encourage him to test me, to prove that we are right for each other over and over, to prove that I am a strong woman worth following. To prove that even when we disagree that I respect him and give him the room he needs to be a contributing member of the relationship we have.

Do you believe that you do not, ever test people? Nope. We all test people, in one way or another, regularly.

Again, I asked YOUR views on testing first. I have no interest in attacking your ideas, but instead understanding how you use the word to communicate more effective. Since you asked, I have laid out how I would use that word in this context.

Now I do understand the thought logic behind the question. I understand that it works in your life and the relationship that you have with your pet, and I understand that now.

I do not believe that when I ask questions of a female in the starting stage of a friendship that might lead to a relationship, I do not class that as testing. I ask her questions about her life and what her goals might be, to see if we are compatible on a few levels. I would not ask her to do something and then see if she has done it, pertaining to testing her. I would look at her life in a whole and then decide from there.

I see growth in the relationship when I ask her about things or even let her do things that she is more skilled than myself. I would not test her and also have her test me to see if I myself validate the relationship in leading her. She would follow without any thought because she knows that I will not lead her down a negative path, because we have communicated about many matters before heading into a relationship. What you see is what you get in 5 years or even 20, that is why I also tell her that she will not be de-collared, for a long time, she would stay a slave until she dies

I myself would not test, but your relationship works with it, because you live in your skin and live that life.

Frank Ar.

< Message edited by FrankAr -- 7/23/2015 12:38:00 PM >

_____________________________

I am just me, simple ol me.

Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

(in reply to NookieNotes)

Post #: 25

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 1:47:32 PM

NookieNotes

Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr
Can you provide examples about testing and then I can see what clashing we would have about them ?

This is why I asked you those specific questions:

Does testing have to be conscious?
Does testing have to be negative?
Is there no example you can think of in which testing someone is a good thing?
Do you believe that you do not, ever test people?

My answers:

Does testing have to be conscious? No, it does not. I believe we test each other every day, in hundreds/thousands of little ways. From the first contact, we are testing people, to determine what kind of match they are for us.

Does testing have to be negative? I do not believe it does. As a dominant, I also test my Pet in very many ways, sometimes to see how he will react to a situation that I have not yet had experience with, with him. Sometimes, to see what he is capable of, so that I can train more effectively.

Is there no example you can think of in which testing someone is a good thing? I have given examples. I not only test my Pet, I encourage him to test me, to prove that we are right for each other over and over, to prove that I am a strong woman worth following. To prove that even when we disagree that I respect him and give him the room he needs to be a contributing member of the relationship we have.

Do you believe that you do not, ever test people? Nope. We all test people, in one way or another, regularly.

Again, I asked YOUR views on testing first. I have no interest in attacking your ideas, but instead understanding how you use the word to communicate more effective. Since you asked, I have laid out how I would use that word in this context.

Now I do understand the thought logic behind the question. I understand that it works in your life and the relationship that you have with your pet, and I understand that now.

I do not believe that when I ask questions of a female in the starting stage of a friendship that might lead to a relationship, I do not class that as testing. I ask her questions about her life and what her goals might be, to see if we are compatible on a few levels. I would not ask her to do something and then see if she has done it, pertaining to testing her. I would look at her life in a whole and then decide from there.

I see growth in the relationship when I ask her about things or even let her do things that she is more skilled than myself. I would not test her and also have her test me to see if I myself validate the relationship in leading her. She would follow without any thought because she knows that I will not lead her down a negative path, because we have communicated about many matters before heading into a relationship. What you see is what you get in 5 years or even 20, that is why I also tell her that she will not be de-collared, for a long time, she would stay a slave until she dies

I myself would not test, but your relationship works with it, because you live in your skin and live that life.

Frank Ar.

Sounds like semantics to me.

_____________________________

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Post #: 26

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 2:01:29 PM

MariaB

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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr

I see growth in the relationship when I ask her about things or even let her do things that she is more skilled than myself. I would not test her and also have her test me to see if I myself validate the relationship in leading her. She would follow without any thought because she knows that I will not lead her down a negative path, because we have communicated about many matters before heading into a relationship. What you see is what you get in 5 years or even 20, that is why I also tell her that she will not be de-collared, for a long time, she would stay a slave until she dies

I myself would not test, but your relationship works with it, because you live in your skin and live that life.

Frank Ar.

Frank, first of all I have to say that you sound like a really decent sort of guy.

Nobody will follow you based on prior communication and I'll tell you why; lots of people can talk the talk but not be capable when it comes to walking the walk. I could entice someone's submission with my initial communication but its only my actions, my consistency, my tolerance or lack of tolerance levels and my leadership ability that proves anything. In other words, could I deliver what I had communicated? or would I get all wishy washy at the first hurdle? A submissive, at least in a fledgling relationship will continuously look for clues. Is she really dominant? does she inspire me enough to submit to me? or is she just playing a game that she will tire of soon? The giving of submission is based on trust, not trust that you are safe but trust that you have real ability to consistently lead her. If they are going to invest in you then they will be testing you, even if you aren't aware you are being tested.

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(in reply to FrankAr)

Post #: 27

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 2:25:46 PM

DerangedUnit

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Joined: 2/23/2007
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I think a lot of what this comes down to is semantics. Someones "gut feeling", that urge to get defensive. The problem with that for me is I have no "natural response" not in the sense that I behave automatically without thinking about it. I think, decide on an emotion, then feel it. It is all a process I decide.... this has a lot to do with what I was talking about on the spanking thread NookieNotes. Which is why I define manipulation as devious, working against someones end goal. Because for me there is always a choice towards some direction... I think there is for everyone there is just something that needs to be triggered to recognize the paths between instinct and choice. Like lucid dreaming, all my dreams are lucid, I make choices and can even choose which dream I want to visit, its been this way as long as I can remember. I know that is not the case for most people. But if I dont choose to act in a dream I will lie there in the dream. There is no "along for the ride" with people I can choose to act for or against them, for myself or not at all but there is always a choice.

(in reply to MariaB)

Post #: 28

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 2:29:03 PM

littleladybug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

I think, decide on an emotion, then feel it. It is all a process I decide....

So, you decide to be a person who shows no negative emotion to their partner. And, that's supposed to be a good thing?

(in reply to DerangedUnit)

Post #: 29

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 2:52:31 PM

DerangedUnit

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Joined: 2/23/2007
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Being positive is the very definition of a good thing.

But that wasnt what I meant from that. I do not feel negative emotions unless I choose to, there are no negative emotions to share unless I create them by thinking about them first. Most people feel then think, I think then feel, it is detached not connected.

(in reply to littleladybug)

Post #: 30

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 3:16:46 PM

FrankAr

Posts: 817
Joined: 10/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Nobody will follow you based on prior communication

This from Maria has to be really engraved into people's heads and mind.

Nobody should ever go with another based on what they say, NEVER. That is why I have a few rules. Emails for a few months, this gets the flow starting and seeing where it leads. Next would be the yahoo, seeing the face reactions to what we speak of, seeing the hand movements. Next would be the phone, to talk and relax with each other, talk about everything and anything. Then after the initial 6-9 months a meeting face to face. Now this is coming from a male that flew all the way over to Georgia in the USA to meet someone. I stayed there for 3 weeks, the walk did not meet the talk, and I was massively disappointed, but that is life. Move on and live on.

What Maria has said, COMMUNICATION, and like I always point out in my posting. If you do not do this, you run a hell of a gamble to succeed in the relationship, might work, but 80% of the time in my experience of what I have heard and felt, it does not.

Frank Ar.

_____________________________

I am just me, simple ol me.

Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

(in reply to MariaB)

Post #: 31

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 3:41:29 PM

RemoteUser

Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

In the simplest sense, any form of attempt to alter something to a desired end is manipulation, which by and large is not confined to behaviours.

If we go by the definition she posted, that is not the case. Only if there is conscious thought and/or deviousness.

I understand your point, too, and agree on the rest.

I know what you mean.

Going only off the definition posited, it is quite possible to consider manipulation for someone else's benefit, also to your own, relevant to your investment in the person and your shared outlook. The methodology doesn't dictate the result, as nice as it would be to think so, only what we believe will happen (which is only as accurate as the person's perceptions). A fist pump will make some kids smile and others, cringe. Conversely, expressing negativity can be very healthy, and a partner who feels more comfortable seeing such expressions may feel more "in tune" with you for the very fact that you can let your walls down.

Extreme negativity is as unhealthy as anything else taken to extreme. Moderation might be boring, but keeping things balanced and stable contributes to longer-term fulfillment through the enablement of mutual capacity built upon respect for all involved. The more open we feel, the more we can share, and accepting and acknowledging the boundaries of others is a small price to pay (social interaction versus the selfish desires of the individual ego). That tenet forms a large part of the foundation of most advanced social structures, be they political, religious or cultural. How the individual interprets and expresses that tenet is always another subjective story.

(I can't decide if that sounds like some weird corporate public relations spin on societal structure or not. I'm half tempted to ask the mods what they think of the wording as it pertains to their own duties...)

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.

(in reply to NookieNotes)

Post #: 32

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 3:53:53 PM

DerangedUnit

Posts: 660
Joined: 2/23/2007
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quote:

conversely, expressing negativity can be very healthy, and a partner who feels more comfortable seeing such expressions may feel more "in tune" with you for the very fact that you can let your walls down

This is what I dont understand about people. When did bad become good? Why can people only believe people if they are miserable? Why is being happy seen as creepy or manipulative? When did saying "I just want you to be happy" become an insult?

I thought the intimate goal of life was to be happy. Happiness is what you work your ass of to get, happiness is why you try to make a better life for your kids. Happiness is the goal, so if it's now negativity that is the only reality, what is the goal of that?

I just can't make heads or tales of that

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 33

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 4:31:44 PM

littleladybug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

Being positive is the very definition of a good thing.

On that, I would whole-heartedly disagree. When one smiles, simply because the rule that they live by is to "be happy", that is not, by definition, a good thing.

You have a rule to "be happy". Good on you, seriously. If my partner told me that he didn't want me to feel anything but happiness, and I felt I could not tell him, for example, that I "feel like shit" when I'm sick, he'd be taking the next bus away from me. In my world, having a relationship where there is nothing but happy is, like I said before, very "Stepford Wives". That is, completely not real.

Could I do it? Of course I could. I could do a lot of things that are distasteful to me. The question is whether I would want to. And the answer is obviously, no.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

But that wasnt what I meant from that. I do not feel negative emotions unless I choose to, there are no negative emotions to share unless I create them by thinking about them first. Most people feel then think, I think then feel, it is detached not connected.

And, I don't see that as a good thing, at all. Again, thinking "Stepford Wives" here.

(in reply to DerangedUnit)

Post #: 34

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 4:38:08 PM

RemoteUser

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

quote:

conversely, expressing negativity can be very healthy, and a partner who feels more comfortable seeing such expressions may feel more "in tune" with you for the very fact that you can let your walls down

This is what I dont understand about people. When did bad become good? Why can people only believe people if they are miserable? Why is being happy seen as creepy or manipulative? When did saying "I just want you to be happy" become an insult?

I thought the intimate goal of life was to be happy. Happiness is what you work your ass of to get, happiness is why you try to make a better life for your kids. Happiness is the goal, so if it's now negativity that is the only reality, what is the goal of that?

I just can't make heads or tales of that

I see nothing at odds here. If a person expresses a negative experience because it allows them to vent away the associated "bad feelings", it can be taken as "bad" OR it can be taken as an opportunity to offer support and positivity that can replace the negativity.

Example: you feel sick, your man comes home, you say, "I love you very much. I'm feeling so sick I haven't been able to do much but rest today. I'm sorry." gives a wealth of information. One, you need your rest. Two, any chores assigned may not have been completed and there is a reason for that. (I would expect a Dom to care why something wasn't completed, and also to react in a fashion mitigated by the offered explanation.) Three, you may be soothed and supported by understanding, thus improving both your immediate condition and encourage quicker healing in the longer term.

The way you are expressing this indicates that you only see things in black and white. Note how I worded things in the above example. The first thing said is positive and considerate. The following commentary expresses who you are and how you feel. The apology at the end indicates consideration of his feelings. This is not "good" or "bad", and is in fact honest and respectful.

There is nothing wrong with positive expressions at all. As indicated throughout this thread, however, you have to consider the merits of honesty, which in turn underlies respect, and that is a crucial piece of any partnership, no? How you choose to express that is as much dependent on your perceived comforts as it is the receptiveness of the listener. What you're doing isn't wrong. How you perceive things, as laid out in mere black or white moral objectivity, is not particularly typical, and may not be something others relate to as easily.

And to toss in a note of zen: happiness comes from the foundation of being who you truly are. Reality is a collection of constructs that exist and react relative to your capacity to appreciate them. No one made negativity the new reality, and no one can make it your reality. Take comfort in that. One last consideration - when you express your frustration at how you perceive things, do you see that as positive or negative? How do you think others see it? And how does it fit into your interpretation of the very topic of this thread, as posited by your opening post?

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.

(in reply to DerangedUnit)

Post #: 35

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 4:56:15 PM

DerangedUnit

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That doesn't make sense to me. What it sounds like you are saying is that you prefer to be miserable.... but that cant be right.... Happiness is not that complicated, you are either happy or you aren't. What makes someone happy means different things to different people but happiness is the goal... im trying to find another way to explain this...

Happy is synonymous with good, if you are sad it means something is wrong and you have to try to fix it. Saying good is bad and bad is good makes no sense to me. If you dont want to be happy what do you want?

There is no evil plot to replace you with a happy robot, when people want you to be happy it isnt secret code for them trying to destroy you... people can want to help other people. They want to help other people feel good because it makes them feel good. Simple really.

(in reply to littleladybug)

Post #: 36

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 5:17:49 PM

littleladybug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

That doesn't make sense to me. What it sounds like you are saying is that you prefer to be miserable.... but that cant be right.... Happiness is not that complicated, you are either happy or you aren't. What makes someone happy means different things to different people but happiness is the goal... im trying to find another way to explain this...

Oh no, that's not at all what I'm saying. I don't prefer to be miserable at all. It's just that in my life there will be times when I'm not jumping up and saying "let's do it" with a smile on my face. And I'm with someone who doesn't expect that of me.

Taking the moving scenario that I mentioned before-- yup, this weekend is gonna suck. Me smiling and being positive about it will not change that fact. Me smiling and being positive about it won't make it better. We will move this furniture, because it will get us to the goal that we both want, but sure as hell, neither one of us will be smiling when we are trying to figure out how to get the couch up the porch steps and through the front door.

I don't see the absence of happiness in a particular situation as misery. Yes, there are people who feed off of negative drama, but there's a lot of in between here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

Happy is synonymous with good, if you are sad it means something is wrong and you have to try to fix it. Saying good is bad and bad is good makes no sense to me. If you dont want to be happy what do you want?

Do you not see ANY grey at all here?

Do you not see that there will be times, in getting to the "happiness goal" that will be not-so-smile-worthy? Or, will a smile just make it all better?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit
There is no evil plot to replace you with a happy robot, when people want you to be happy it isnt secret code for them trying to destroy you... people can want to help other people. They want to help other people feel good because it makes them feel good. Simple really.

Again, I will say that if you feel that you need to be happy because your D-type has given that rule, more power to you. I believe that, in my life, it's not realistic, in any way, shape or form.

(in reply to DerangedUnit)

Post #: 37

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 5:21:13 PM

RemoteUser

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

That doesn't make sense to me. What it sounds like you are saying is that you prefer to be miserable.... but that cant be right.... Happiness is not that complicated, you are either happy or you aren't. What makes someone happy means different things to different people but happiness is the goal... im trying to find another way to explain this...

Happy is synonymous with good, if you are sad it means something is wrong and you have to try to fix it. Saying good is bad and bad is good makes no sense to me. If you dont want to be happy what do you want?

There is no evil plot to replace you with a happy robot, when people want you to be happy it isnt secret code for them trying to destroy you... people can want to help other people. They want to help other people feel good because it makes them feel good. Simple really.

I never used the word miserable and never indicated my preference for anything. Sorry, that's all you. Same with saying that bad is good. Don't generalize. Tell me the wording I used to give you the impression, so I can at least know how you even came to that incredibly wrong conclusion to begin with... If you can't do that, then you need to accept that you're not actually reading what I've said, nor accepting what I said for what it is, and that's a touch disturbing.

What I did do is offer you several different avenues of thought to consider what you're really talking about as well as HOW it's perceived. This response you've given is further affirming the idea that you have a very concrete way of seeing things as ONLY black or white.

I will try again to demonstrate what I am talking about, by referencing what you've chosen to reply with.

Life is complicated, in part because we make it so. Pretending life is simple is great for expressing ideals, but doesn't touch upon the practical truth inherent in the everyday life of billions of people upon this planet. Subsequently, the goals of life, such as happiness, cannot fundamentally and exclusively be simplistic either. Nor is happiness exclusive. One can be happy and sad at the same time, and does not necessarily reflect a "bad thing". Ask any father who gives his daughter away during her marriage ceremony.

If happiness is synonymous with good, then all things that create happiness must be considered good as well. Ignoring for the moment that the moral stance of "good" is subjective to individual perception, the belief being expressed here is that anything perceived as creating happiness is automatically moral. How do you reconcile this with the happiness of a "bad" person - a criminal, for example? Even "bad" people can feel happiness, albeit over something different than others might. If I found joy in stealing money or committing rape, does that make carrying out either act "good" as well?

Take a few times to read what I've written here. Note that at no time did I say "good is bad"; at no time did I express an opinion of any sort, beyond my immediate response to your reply as it pertained to what I said. I took what you said, applied logic, gave examples, and am asking you based on that logic to tell me your thoughts. I'm doing that to better understand how you're getting to the same conclusion over and over.

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.

(in reply to DerangedUnit)

Post #: 38

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 5:23:49 PM

DerangedUnit

Posts: 660
Joined: 2/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

quote:

ORIGINAL: DerangedUnit

quote:

conversely, expressing negativity can be very healthy, and a partner who feels more comfortable seeing such expressions may feel more "in tune" with you for the very fact that you can let your walls down

This is what I dont understand about people. When did bad become good? Why can people only believe people if they are miserable? Why is being happy seen as creepy or manipulative? When did saying "I just want you to be happy" become an insult?

I thought the intimate goal of life was to be happy. Happiness is what you work your ass of to get, happiness is why you try to make a better life for your kids. Happiness is the goal, so if it's now negativity that is the only reality, what is the goal of that?

I just can't make heads or tales of that

I see nothing at odds here. If a person expresses a negative experience because it allows them to vent away the associated "bad feelings", it can be taken as "bad" OR it can be taken as an opportunity to offer support and positivity that can replace the negativity.

Example: you feel sick, your man comes home, you say, "I love you very much. I'm feeling so sick I haven't been able to do much but rest today. I'm sorry." gives a wealth of information. One, you need your rest. Two, any chores assigned may not have been completed and there is a reason for that. (I would expect a Dom to care why something wasn't completed, and also to react in a fashion mitigated by the offered explanation.) Three, you may be soothed and supported by understanding, thus improving both your immediate condition and encourage quicker healing in the longer term.

The way you are expressing this indicates that you only see things in black and white. Note how I worded things in the above example. The first thing said is positive and considerate. The following commentary expresses who you are and how you feel. The apology at the end indicates consideration of his feelings. This is not "good" or "bad", and is in fact honest and respectful.

There is nothing wrong with positive expressions at all. As indicated throughout this thread, however, you have to consider the merits of honesty, which in turn underlies respect, and that is a crucial piece of any partnership, no? How you choose to express that is as much dependent on your perceived comforts as it is the receptiveness of the listener. What you're doing isn't wrong. How you perceive things, as laid out in mere black or white moral objectivity, is not particularly typical, and may not be something others relate to as easily.

And to toss in a note of zen: happiness comes from the foundation of being who you truly are. Reality is a collection of constructs that exist and react relative to your capacity to appreciate them. No one made negativity the new reality, and no one can make it your reality. Take comfort in that. One last consideration - when you express your frustration at how you perceive things, do you see that as positive or negative? How do you think others see it? And how does it fit into your interpretation of the very topic of this thread, as posited by your opening post?

I don't see it as frustration it's genuinely something I find confusing... im not frustrated by it, I just don't get it. I try to figure out how to understand someone elses point of view... I almost always fail, for some reason I cant figure out how to get people to interpret words the way I intend them in type, in person no problem, typing people come to all sorts of conclusions I have no clue how they came about. I see my intention, to understand, as positive. But the results generally don't clear things up at all. I assume people are trying to be helpful and offer their opinions and see that as a positive thing, but think they don't usually know that im talking about which is negative. My original post, is trying to understand the lines by which people define manipulation, why wanting someone else to be happy is seen as manipulation. I understand that people think it is, but I dont know why.... and I don't like not being able to rationalize something.

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 39

RE: Manipulation vs. Behavior mod vs. Positivity/negati... - 7/23/2015 5:27:58 PM

RemoteUser

Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline

Ahh, I might have misunderstood who you were replying to. your last response makes much more sense. Apologies if that is the case.

I didn't get the impression that anyone thinks making another person happy is wrong. The methods you use to try and engender happiness, though, may be suspect and subjected to scrutiny. Are you making someone happy primarily for them, or for gratification, for example.

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.

(in reply to DerangedUnit)

Post #: 40

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