RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour

RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour (Full Version)

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bigjb62 -> RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour (8/1/2015 12:26:11 PM)
quote: Yes the whole mantra "these jobs are stepping stones to better paying jobs" is bullshit. Its been disproved. Need evidence? Ask how long people have worked in Wal-Mart. Because according to your 'bullshit', 90% of them should have moved on after three to five years. Or earning much more in that same time period ( X 1.5 to 1.8). Reality is, those and many others can not take a step upward. They are virtually trapped in the system. Making matters worst is that we, the taxpayer, are off setting their fixed and many variable expenses. They live on welfare essentially. Meanwhile, Wal-Mart makes amazing levels of profit in the BILLIONS. In better economic times most if not all of the people who work these minimum wage jobs have the ability to get a better job if they would make the effort, and even with the economy we have now a lot of them could do better if they tried. So the biggest problem I see is most of them including you is they expect to be paid a lot of money for a jog that requires little skill, so if they want a better paying job then they to get out and look for one and or get the education & skills so they can be paid more. I'm going to use my story as an example of what can be done with some effort. I only have an 8th grade education and left home when I was 15. My 1st couple of jobs were around minimum wage but that wasn't good enough for me and I was able to find a job in a bakery and ended up becoming a bakery chef but I got tired of working nights, weekends and holidays so I started over and opened a landscape maintenance business but I couldn't compete with all the illegals doing it so I went to work as a Law Librarian which paid OK but I didn't like the work so I went to school to become an appliance repairman and started my own business doing that but with everything being so disposable I struggled with turning a profit so I added handyman work to it and did OK. But for personal reasons I recently decided to move to another state and start over except at my age I'm not going try to build another business so instead I will get a jog for regular wages. The problem I have now is that finding a job doing what I'm qualified to do is not easy but I will keep looking until I do but in the mean time I would take a job at walmart or home depot or similar place knowing that it would only be temporary. Now my point for telling you this is everything I accomplished I did because I made an effort and didn't let lack of education or other setbacks derail me. Granted I'm not a rich guy but I chose to relocate and was able to pay cash for my house and in the end I will find a decent paying job.

joether -> RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour (8/1/2015 12:57:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri A 2.9-5.5% profit margin over the last 5 years is "amazing" levels of profit? They just have an immense gross income (which isn't surprising considering how many stores they have, and their pricing strategy). I recall reading in several sources a few months ago about 'Wal-Mart' and the financial 'pain' it would have in raising hourly rates just $6/hour. It may take some time to hunt them down, given how often Wal-Mart has been in the media since that time. I recall that the change in expenses for Wal-Mart was a few percentage points (6-9%) of total operating budget. Wal-Mart is a 'resource intense' business rather than a 'labor intense' model. You wouldn't think it, looking at its sizable workforce that makes up about 1% of the total US Workforce. That is because the majority of costs are not in labor, but in product. Moving it, storing it, selling it, etc. I'll keep looking for the source of information, as I'm curious about the circumstances.... While a little dated, in 2014 Wal-Mart cost us, the taxpayer, $6.2 Billion. What is the likelihood that number decreases in 2015 assuming nothing changes? How about next year? In ten years? That's $6.2 billion dollars we are giving, indirectly to Wal-Mart. quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Walmart did raise it's pay rates. [sarcasm]wow....how 'generous' of them....[/sarcasm] They STILL make under the federal poverty level.... Even the department managers (whom are salary in most other retail establishments).... quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Oh, sure, take someone who's life is based on more than $7.25/hr. and put them on minimum wage to show them how they can't handle life. [8\|] That'll pwove minimum wage isn't high enough! No, it would instill some humility in the individual. Because the individual making this 'argument' has none. How well could you survive on $7.25/hour given your situation, DS? I doubt not to well. Ever been on welfare for years? You want to know how 'enjoyable' that sensation is? How often your reputation as a individual is mocked and metaphorically 'dragged through the mud'? Most conservatives in this nation....ENJOY....doing that to our nation's least protected citizens. If they can do that to them, what could they do towards you and me? quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Or, it will prove that minimum wage isn't high enough to support a lifestyle based on a higher wage... This makes no logic sense! It is proven time and again that someone living on $7.25/hour is BELOW the federal poverty level. That they have to work 70-80 hours/week just to make ends meet. What is the toll this takes upon that individual? Upon the family they are the breadwinner for? What happens to the children whom don't receive direct involvement from their parents as they grow up? These things have effects. And its been shown for over twenty years now! I've shown you many things that explain two concepts clearly: 1 ) This work force gains many improvements 2 ) The economy benefits from this legal transaction Yet, folks in your political spectrum are against raising the federal wage up to $15/hour. They give all the 'fear arguments' which are easily countered by everyone else. The problem is the audience recieving the 'fear arguments' will not listen or not aware of the rational and well studied counter arguments. That if we did this, its translated as 'a win for Obama'. An conservatives in this nation will do....ANYTHING....and.....EVERYTHING.....to prevent any sort of win for President Obama. Whether its real or fantasy. Meanwhile 42% of the hourly employees of America make less than $15/hour, and we the tax payer 'pay' Wal-mart $6.2 Billion dollars without any benefits of it. Going into the next election, THIS, will be an issue. The Democrats can EASILY capitalize on it. The Republicans will take staggering loses due to it. Because 42% of 77.2 Million (your quoted bls.gov figure) is 32.4 million. That's 32.4 million Americans whom will be voting Democrat in the next election. When broken down, that's more than enough to convert purple states to blue states in Congress and the Oval Office. The GOP/TP are idiots to fight against this in the long run. But they again, they are composed of idiots....

DesideriScuri -> RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour (8/1/2015 4:20:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/cps/characteristics-of-minimum-wage-workers-2014.pdf All Workers Paid Hourly age 16+: 77.207M Total paid at or below Minimum: 2.992M At minimum: 1.255M Below Minimum: 1.737M That's 3.9% of all workers paid an hourly wage ages 16+ are paid at or below minimum wage. 77.2M is just a little under HALF of all US workers (its about 148.3M according to the BLS for June 2015). This number, 77.2M, is deceptive. Since it is counting....ALL jobs.....not just those in a particular area of sector. But we are not having a discussion on how many are paid at or near $7.25/hour. We are discussing those paid under $15/hour. What percentage of the 77.2M your quoting is paid at or below this number? Seriously? It's "deceptive?" It's not deceptive, it's reporting. And, I took great care to list out the qualifications of those numbers. Did you see the link, so you can look at the numbers yourself? You need to head back to my response you're responding to, and see who I was discussing things with, and what we were discussing. quote: That's 42%. Which raises your "...3%..." argument towards the 'absurd' category rather quickly. So nearly half the people whom are paid hourly are more likely to be living on welfare in one form or another. Any proof of that claim? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Full-Time/Part-Time Status: FT: 1.031M (34.5% of those paid at or below minimum wage) PT: 1.954M (65.4% of those paid at or below minimum wage) How many of those part timers work more than one job? How many of those full timers work an additional part time job? What percentage of these workers are so over worked they rarely get to see the kids they are raising? Go to their school events? Help them with homework? Be a full time parent (because the job does require it in some cases)? I see them every day, DS. These people are in a system they can not get out on their own. EVER. They work to exhaustion. And the effects it has on their children are generally not positive. Yet those making $15/hours a week can have a much more normal existence. In fact, those working for just $3/hour an hour are more active with their children! Seriously? You tell me, Joether. How many of those 77M are "so overworked" they rarely get to see their kids? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri The vast majority are part-time workers (no mention of it being by choice or not). Race: Asian: 0.109M (3.6% of the total) Hispanic/Latino: 0.519M (17.3% of the total) Black: 0.480M (16.0% of the total) White: 2.284M (76.3% of the total) [* Estimates for the race groups—White, Black or African American, and Asian —do not sum to totals because data are not presented for all races. Persons whose ethnicity is identified as Hispanic or Latino may be of any race.] Again, how many work more than just one job? See above. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Service Occupations: Total Paid Hourly Wages: 18.762M Total At or Below Minimum Wage: 1.958M (10.4% of those in service occupations; 66.7% of all those paid at or below minimum, regardless of industry) at minimum wage: 0.595M (30.4% of those in service occupations at or below minimum) Below minimum: 1.363M (69.6% of those in service occupations at or below minimum) Healthcare support occupations (Total/At/Below): 85K/29K/56K Personal Care and Service occupations (Total/At/Below): 182K/112K/50K Food Prep and Service Related (Total/At/Below): 1.501M/378M/1.123M Imagine if all these people were paid above the federal poverty rate? And the State Poverty Rate? Would they be more motivated to do good things? Because that white stuff on your burger, ISN'T, cheese.... Uh huh. I'm sure that guy that was stumped when I handed more paper money than necessary and proper change is worth the extra money. What happened at the height of the housing bubble, when unemployment was low, and fast food joints around me (no idea what they were doing anywhere else) were offering $10/hr. for burger flippers and fry fryers? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri The majority of those being paid at or below minimum wage have never been married (65.8%). The largest segment of people being paid hourly at or below the minimum wage are 16-24 years old and never married (45.6%). 22% of people being paid at or below the minimum wage are married, with the spouse present (12.2% have a different marital status). Why have they never been married? Maybe because getting married is a costly affair and people want it for love rather than a tax deduction. There is a time to be 'cold' with the numbers and a time to be 'human' with reality. Got to known to do both, DS! Many couples do not get married yet live as such for years. Does your source give this information? No, there is no way to collect such information realistically. Yet, we all know people whom are living with someone that they plan on marrying. Then, why are you asking for it? I acknowledge the data isn't perfect. I even mentioned some questions about that, too. But, I think it's a horrible idea to form policy based on anecdotal evidence that isn't realistically possible to collect. I'm sure you would, too, as long as it didn't fit your agenda. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I wish there was a break down of whether or not the earner is supporting a family or not. In general terms, both parents work the less the house hold earns in a given year. That number seems to be about $90K/year per individual worker. So if one of two parents makes $150,000/year, its very likely the other is a 'stay at home dad/mom'. Assuming they are not burning through cash like I do logs in the winter time! This is also regional base. In the Northeast, that number will be higher than the mid-west. Just my own observation given working with a CFP at times..... Yet, there was no breakdown of that. Sorta hard to form policy without that stuff isn't it? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I will say that homecare workers can be worth more than their weight in gold, if they're really good. But, raising the minimum wage to $15 (or even $10) just so they make more money, is a big of a lark. I can't even imagine how those workers can't (or just haven't) Unionized to get better compensation. All good people are worth their weight in anti-matter, not just gold. An if they were paid well, this planet would be a better place. I think you could readily agree to that! What is the real problem you have in paying workers above the poverty level? Given your 'stance' on limited government? Yes, I understand your in favor of helping the truly needed. Yet, the point of this thread is that 42% of hourly workers in this nation make less than $15/hour.. Want to try for salary workers? US Army? I'm sure the other branches are quite similar. Shouldn't we pay our enlisted a real wage? Its not like they do anything major, right.... ...like defend the nation..... The political parties you seem to favor have been doing an....AMAZINGLY....good job at getting the population to demonize Unions. Your 'pal' Scott Walker has led the charge to undermining the Union. Unions tend to fight for those NOT making 'pile loads of money a month' yet work longer hours and handle 90-99% of the business operations. But 'thanks' to conservative political misinformation media machines running 24/7/365, has steady convince people that Unions are bad/evil/criminal. The same organizations that gave us, the US Workforce a pile of benefits since their inception in the 19th century! Come on DS, Vote Democrat in the next general election. We have cookies! 1. I doubt I'd like your cookies. 2. Handouts are giving a guy a fish, in that adage. 3. With even less incentive to do better, why would people work so hard to do so? Why stop at $15/hr?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour (8/1/2015 4:35:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri A 2.9-5.5% profit margin over the last 5 years is "amazing" levels of profit? They just have an immense gross income (which isn't surprising considering how many stores they have, and their pricing strategy). I recall reading in several sources a few months ago about 'Wal-Mart' and the financial 'pain' it would have in raising hourly rates just $6/hour. It may take some time to hunt them down, given how often Wal-Mart has been in the media since that time. I recall that the change in expenses for Wal-Mart was a few percentage points (6-9%) of total operating budget. Wal-Mart is a 'resource intense' business rather than a 'labor intense' model. You wouldn't think it, looking at its sizable workforce that makes up about 1% of the total US Workforce. That is because the majority of costs are not in labor, but in product. Moving it, storing it, selling it, etc. I'll keep looking for the source of information, as I'm curious about the circumstances.... While a little dated, in 2014 Wal-Mart cost us, the taxpayer, $6.2 Billion. What is the likelihood that number decreases in 2015 assuming nothing changes? How about next year? In ten years? That's $6.2 billion dollars we are giving, indirectly to Wal-Mart. You're full of shit, Joether. WalMart did not cost the US taxpayer $6.2B. If there was no WalMart, what would we, the taxpayers, have paid for the stuff we buy at WalMart? Would that have cost us more or less, ya think? What would the assistance spending have been if WalMart only hired those that they deemed provided $10/hr. worth of labor? Where would that have left all those people who didn't meet that bar, but could meet the $7.25 bar? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Walmart did raise it's pay rates. [sarcasm]wow....how 'generous' of them....[/sarcasm] They STILL make under the federal poverty level.... Even the department managers (whom are salary in most other retail establishments).... How much an hour is the poverty level? How many of those making less than $15/hr. (that would get a raise to $15/hr) aren't supporting a family? Live with Mom and Dad because they are still under 18, or in college? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Oh, sure, take someone who's life is based on more than $7.25/hr. and put them on minimum wage to show them how they can't handle life. [8\|] That'll pwove minimum wage isn't high enough! No, it would instill some humility in the individual. Because the individual making this 'argument' has none. How well could you survive on $7.25/hour given your situation, DS? I doubt not to well. Ever been on welfare for years? You want to know how 'enjoyable' that sensation is? How often your reputation as a individual is mocked and metaphorically 'dragged through the mud'? I would not last long. But, my life isn't based on minimum wage, because I don't make minimum wages. That's a completely preposterous idea to force someone who makes more than minimum to live on minimum wages. A person making minimum wage shouldn't live the life of someone making $30k/year, should they? quote: Most conservatives in this nation....ENJOY....doing that to our nation's least protected citizens. If they can do that to them, what could they do towards you and me? Prove it. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Or, it will prove that minimum wage isn't high enough to support a lifestyle based on a higher wage... This makes no logic sense! It is proven time and again that someone living on $7.25/hour is BELOW the federal poverty level. That they have to work 70-80 hours/week just to make ends meet. What is the toll this takes upon that individual? Upon the family they are the breadwinner for? What happens to the children whom don't receive direct involvement from their parents as they grow up? These things have effects. And its been shown for over twenty years now! No logical sense? I suppose coming from you, that means jack shit. If my lifestyle is based on $20/hr., I would not do well on $7.25/hr. That's because $7.25/hr. isn't enough to support a $20/hr. lifestyle. You seriously can't follow that logic? quote: I've shown you many things that explain two concepts clearly: 1 ) This work force gains many improvements 2 ) The economy benefits from this legal transaction Yet, folks in your political spectrum are against raising the federal wage up to $15/hour. They give all the 'fear arguments' which are easily countered by everyone else. The problem is the audience recieving the 'fear arguments' will not listen or not aware of the rational and well studied counter arguments. That if we did this, its translated as 'a win for Obama'. An conservatives in this nation will do....ANYTHING....and.....EVERYTHING.....to prevent any sort of win for President Obama. Whether its real or fantasy. Meanwhile 42% of the hourly employees of America make less than $15/hour, and we the tax payer 'pay' Wal-mart $6.2 Billion dollars without any benefits of it. Going into the next election, THIS, will be an issue. The Democrats can EASILY capitalize on it. The Republicans will take staggering loses due to it. Because 42% of 77.2 Million (your quoted bls.gov figure) is 32.4 million. That's 32.4 million Americans whom will be voting Democrat in the next election. When broken down, that's more than enough to convert purple states to blue states in Congress and the Oval Office. The GOP/TP are idiots to fight against this in the long run. But they again, they are composed of idiots.... Apparently, you have not clearly proven either of those two things. The work force will be reduced (perhaps "on average" the quality of the workforce would improve as those on the lower end aren't working anymore), and the net gain in tax receipts may not do what you're claiming, as the workforce reduction increases the costs of assistance programs. That might not be a net gain at all for taxpayers. I also find it despicable to offer $15/hr. minimum wages as a means to garner votes.

tj444 -> RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour (8/2/2015 4:28:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I will say that homecare workers can be worth more than their weight in gold, if they're really good. But, raising the minimum wage to $15 (or even $10) just so they make more money, is a big of a lark. I can't even imagine how those workers can't (or just haven't) Unionized to get better compensation. You are trying to argue about things i am not even discussing.. again, I have said that about a quarter of the home care workers are paid less than the minimum wage (as it stands today).. I am not even debating about raising the minimum wage, I am saying that everyone should be covered under FLSA and get the minimum wage.. what is the difference between a live-in nanny and a live-in caregiver (or "companion").. the difference is that the live-in nanny is covered under FLSA and the home care industry has lobbied against including a certain segment of caregiver as being covered under FLSA and quite frankly, its outrageous.. but that industry has been able to keep pulling off this injustice for 75 years or so.. I have read that some states (like Ohio) dont allow caregivers to form/join a union.. but again, a lot of these people fear for their jobs, such as those crappy low-paying jobs are.. especially given the long economic recession/depression that the US has been thru..

DesideriScuri -> RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour (8/3/2015 12:54:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I will say that homecare workers can be worth more than their weight in gold, if they're really good. But, raising the minimum wage to $15 (or even $10) just so they make more money, is a big of a lark. I can't even imagine how those workers can't (or just haven't) Unionized to get better compensation. You are trying to argue about things i am not even discussing.. again, I have said that about a quarter of the home care workers are paid less than the minimum wage (as it stands today).. I am not even debating about raising the minimum wage, I am saying that everyone should be covered under FLSA and get the minimum wage.. what is the difference between a live-in nanny and a live-in caregiver (or "companion").. the difference is that the live-in nanny is covered under FLSA and the home care industry has lobbied against including a certain segment of caregiver as being covered under FLSA and quite frankly, its outrageous.. but that industry has been able to keep pulling off this injustice for 75 years or so.. I have read that some states (like Ohio) dont allow caregivers to form/join a union.. but again, a lot of these people fear for their jobs, such as those crappy low-paying jobs are.. especially given the long economic recession/depression that the US has been thru.. As of January 1, 2015, the rules changed, and there are more home health care workers covered by FLSA.

tj444 -> RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour (8/3/2015 1:08:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I will say that homecare workers can be worth more than their weight in gold, if they're really good. But, raising the minimum wage to $15 (or even $10) just so they make more money, is a big of a lark. I can't even imagine how those workers can't (or just haven't) Unionized to get better compensation. You are trying to argue about things i am not even discussing.. again, I have said that about a quarter of the home care workers are paid less than the minimum wage (as it stands today).. I am not even debating about raising the minimum wage, I am saying that everyone should be covered under FLSA and get the minimum wage.. what is the difference between a live-in nanny and a live-in caregiver (or "companion").. the difference is that the live-in nanny is covered under FLSA and the home care industry has lobbied against including a certain segment of caregiver as being covered under FLSA and quite frankly, its outrageous.. but that industry has been able to keep pulling off this injustice for 75 years or so.. I have read that some states (like Ohio) dont allow caregivers to form/join a union.. but again, a lot of these people fear for their jobs, such as those crappy low-paying jobs are.. especially given the long economic recession/depression that the US has been thru.. As of January 1, 2015, the rules changed, and there are more home health care workers covered by FLSA. no, not really.. you are quoting from 2013 (very old news) and guess what.. the home care industry didnt like those new rules and took the govt to court and in January 2015 they won..

DesideriScuri -> RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour (8/3/2015 5:11:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I will say that homecare workers can be worth more than their weight in gold, if they're really good. But, raising the minimum wage to $15 (or even $10) just so they make more money, is a big of a lark. I can't even imagine how those workers can't (or just haven't) Unionized to get better compensation. You are trying to argue about things i am not even discussing.. again, I have said that about a quarter of the home care workers are paid less than the minimum wage (as it stands today).. I am not even debating about raising the minimum wage, I am saying that everyone should be covered under FLSA and get the minimum wage.. what is the difference between a live-in nanny and a live-in caregiver (or "companion").. the difference is that the live-in nanny is covered under FLSA and the home care industry has lobbied against including a certain segment of caregiver as being covered under FLSA and quite frankly, its outrageous.. but that industry has been able to keep pulling off this injustice for 75 years or so.. I have read that some states (like Ohio) dont allow caregivers to form/join a union.. but again, a lot of these people fear for their jobs, such as those crappy low-paying jobs are.. especially given the long economic recession/depression that the US has been thru.. As of January 1, 2015, the rules changed, and there are more home health care workers covered by FLSA. no, not really.. you are quoting from 2013 (very old news) and guess what.. the home care industry didnt like those new rules and took the govt to court and in January 2015 they won.. Oops! My bad. I didn't catch the date. I do apologize. Apparently, the Federal Government has appealed, and though arguments were heard by May, there has yet to be a ruling from the Appeals Court.

tj444 -> RE: Raise the Mininal Wage to $15/hour (8/3/2015 10:14:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Oops! My bad. I didn't catch the date. I do apologize. Apparently, the Federal Government has appealed, and though arguments were heard by May, there has yet to be a ruling from the Appeals Court. Its pretty confusing so its really hard to get the straight goods on who is exempt and who isnt.. they should take that bulletin down as its misleading to leave it up there until the issue has been settled or until the law has been reworded to make the court case null.. but as it stands, I dont think the govt will win..

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