RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 1:21:35 PM

kdsub

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quote:

So what happens? People are carted off for no good reason and then you have to prove your innocence?

The same thing happens here as in the UK... you have a right to an attorney and if charged you can in most cases post bail and ultimately a judge and or jury will determine your guilt or innocence.

You will also have the right to sue if you are so disposed.... it is called here civilized.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/3/2015 1:31:25 PM >

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 1:28:34 PM

kdsub

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Thanks for the video Kirata... I did not see your post. It seemed convenient for RealOne not to include it in his original post... Just more of his tirades against the MAN.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/3/2015 1:31:06 PM >

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 1:32:13 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

So what happens? People are carted off for no good reason and then you have to prove your innocence?

The same thing happens here as in the UK... you have a right to an attorney and if charged you can in most cases post bail and ultimately a judge and or jury will determine your guilt or innocence...please step off the high horse.

You will also have the right to sue if you are so disposed.... it is called here civilized.

Butch

Calm down, pal, no one's on their high horse.

I simply find it hard to believe that in the United States you can't resist an unlawful arrest.

It is enshrined in English Common Law and is derived from Magna Carta, two important precedents in United States history.

So, I think you're wrong.

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 1:36:32 PM

NorthernGent

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To add:

A point you seem to be missing is that when a policeman arrests someone unlawfully, he or she is no longer acting as a policeman. The police hold no authority outside of exercising their duty as a policeman.

He or she takes the form of a common criminal when arresting someone unlawfully.

That is a very important point on whether or not it is lawful to resist an unlawful arrest.

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 1:44:03 PM

kdsub

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High horse was not appropriate and i removed it. I apologize.

You see the problem , and the reason for the court rulings in my opinion, is that most of the time the arresting officer is within his mandated duty. If people thought that they knew the law better than the police there would be too much arguing and perhaps violence. There are many weird circumstances as we know in the world of law enforcement. Some laws are vague or can be interpreted in more than one way. The safest solution is to let a judge determine the validity if there is a disagreement...not a street lawyer... or people like in this thread playing like they know...Not you NorthernGent.

If a citizen is unlawfully arrested and suffers some damage then they have the right to sue the arresting officer and department. This happens all the time and is a mitigating factor in the behavior of officers. Otherwise if officers are sued and damages are paid then the departments will change and so will the officers or be fired... Take the recent unrest for instance... this has changed procedures all over the country for the good.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/3/2015 1:48:15 PM >

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 1:51:43 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

High horse was not appropriate and i removed it. I apologize.

You see the problem , and the reason for the court rulings in my opinion, is that most of the time the arresting officer is within his mandated duty. If people thought that they knew the law better than the police there would be too much arguing and perhaps violence. There are many weird circumstances as we know in the world of law enforcement. Some laws are vague or can be interpreted in more than one way. The safest solution is to let a judge determine the validity if there is a disagreement...not a street lawyer... or people like in this thread playing like they know.

If a citizen is unlawfully arrested and suffers some damage then they have the right to sue the arresting officer and department. This happens all the time and is a mitigating factor in the behavior of officers. Otherwise if officers are sued and damages are paid then the departments will change and so will the officers or be fired... Take the recent unrest for instance... this has changed procedures all over the country for the good.

Butch

No problem with the high horse thing.

What I do agree with is that in practice it will be difficult to prove that a policeman was acting outside of his authority, as it is predicated on reasonable suspicion.

But, I find it very hard to believe that it is unlawful to resist unlawful arrest in the United States. Effectively it is saying that the police have the authority to act like common criminals.

I doubt it very much. I'll look it up, see what I can find.

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 2:07:46 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

High horse was not appropriate and i removed it. I apologize.

You see the problem , and the reason for the court rulings in my opinion, is that most of the time the arresting officer is within his mandated duty. If people thought that they knew the law better than the police there would be too much arguing and perhaps violence. There are many weird circumstances as we know in the world of law enforcement. Some laws are vague or can be interpreted in more than one way. The safest solution is to let a judge determine the validity if there is a disagreement...not a street lawyer... or people like in this thread playing like they know.

If a citizen is unlawfully arrested and suffers some damage then they have the right to sue the arresting officer and department. This happens all the time and is a mitigating factor in the behavior of officers. Otherwise if officers are sued and damages are paid then the departments will change and so will the officers or be fired... Take the recent unrest for instance... this has changed procedures all over the country for the good.

Butch

No problem with the high horse thing.

What I do agree with is that in practice it will be difficult to prove that a policeman was acting outside of his authority, as it is predicated on reasonable suspicion.

But, I find it very hard to believe that it is unlawful to resist unlawful arrest in the United States. Effectively it is saying that the police have the authority to act like common criminals.

I doubt it very much. I'll look it up, see what I can find.

Well it seems it differs from state to state, and it really surprises me that it's unlawful to resist arrest in some places over there.

It also seems that it was quite lawful to resist arrest across the United States once upon a time, so something has changed.

In that case, contrary to your post above it is not the same in England.

We have the right to resist unlawful arrest and with the application of reasonable force, not excessive force, and the right to claim for false imprisonment. We will not be charged for resisting arrest as a separate crime.

Sounds like a police state to me: guilty until proven innocent.

The police have no jurisdiction outside of their lawful duty here; they can't simply pull anyone off the street for anything with questions asked later. They're no longer acting as a police officer in the event they do that, and as such it's an assault and false imprisonment.

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 2:09:54 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
If a citizen is unlawfully arrested and suffers some damage then they have the right to sue the arresting officer and department. This happens all the time and is a mitigating factor in the behavior of officers. Otherwise if officers are sued and damages are paid then the departments will change and so will the officers or be fired... Take the recent unrest for instance... this has changed procedures all over the country for the good.

Butch

its easy to say oh if you are damaged by a false or unlawful arrest you can sue.. it takes time and money to sue.. even if a lawyer will take the case on a contingency basis, you still have to find that lawyer and hope to hell that he/she is good at their job.. So really, how often do damaged people sue the cops? My impression is not all that many do even if they have a good case.. That guy in FL that i sometimes post links about didnt sue even tho he was falsely arrested for tresspassing at his place of work while he was working.. This had gone on for years..

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/police-stop-man-258-times-charge-trespassing-work-article-1.1526422

"In fact, even after higher-ranking officers were alerted to Sampson's experience, that did not put an end to his repeated jailing. Neither a public defender nor a judge was able to spot or stop this miscarriage of justice either. No one inside the system successfully exposed or remedied the abusive situation. Things only changed for Sampson when the store owner got video evidence and took it to the media. And even then, the egregious misbehavior of the police officers went unpunished.

Most of the perpetrators are still on the job."
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/02/This-american-life-cops-see-it-differently/385874/

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 2:46:45 PM

kdsub

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HERE is an example of how it works... And should work.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/3/2015 2:47:32 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 2:56:22 PM

kdsub

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It would be if not for the right of an attorney... And remember it is a judge that determines if charges will be brought.

Butch

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 3:14:19 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

HERE is an example of how it works... And should work.

Butch

The whole point of certain laws and codes is that no one is able to take your liberty from you. Including a policeman making an unlawful arrest.

It's a principle safeguarding people's liberty.

It's no use saying they can and then the individual will have to challenge that and prove his innocence.

It's supposed to work the other way 'round. Innocent until proven guilty.

I'm scratching my head wondering what the point is in having certain rights enshrined in a constitution and then saying you can't defend yourself when a policeman attempts to take your liberty unlawfully.

He is no longer acting with authority and so your actions aren't judged in the same way they would be under a lawful arrest.

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RE: Family accuses Fairfield police of brutalitiy - 8/3/2015 3:28:44 PM

JVoV

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Well, technically, the point of laws & codes is to make sure that anyone that does take or attempt to take your liberties away, without due process, is held accountable.

The System has failed so many times though. And accountability isn't much consolation when lives are already lost.

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