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9 levels of Submission? - 11/28/2004 5:29:19 PM   
RiotGirl


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< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 3/15/2005 11:19:30 PM >
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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/28/2004 6:39:06 PM   
atHisfeet


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i also read about this last night. i too would like to read through the levels. i am not saying i will follow them but i do want to read them.

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/28/2004 6:55:11 PM   
smile2cu


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The original topic is under General BDSM Discussion on 2/26/2004.
Titled "9 Levels of Submission".

Now if proudsub would be good enough to tell me how to paste a link into a message, please? She does this so much better than me, so I'll give her her job back.

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/28/2004 6:56:19 PM   
stef


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You can read about the 9 levels here.

~stef

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"Hypocrisy has consequences"

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/28/2004 6:56:41 PM   
SirSteveH


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Here you go... You can also find this on the internet... Just do a search with the words," 9 levels of submission", & you'll find the links (two of worth). ~Sir Steve of Seattle

{Within the S/M subculture, different people use the words "submissive and slave" to mean many different things. When submissives say "I want to be your slave," sometimes they mean only that they want to be tied up and whipped. Many professional Dominants routinely refer to their (usually not very genuinely submissive clients) as "slaves." At the other extreme, there are people who want to be full-time personal servants, and who truly want to exist solely for their Dom/me's use, pleasure and convenience. And there are many shades in between these two extremes.}

9 Levels of Submission

By Diane Vera

(these are not rigid definitions of submission)

1. THE OUTRIGHT NON-SUBMISSIVE MASOCHIST or KINKY SENSUALIST.
Not into servitude, humiliation or giving up control; just pain and/or spiced-up sensuality, on the masochist's own terms and for the masochist's own direct pleasure (i.e. turned on solely/mainly by one's own bodily sensations rather than by being "used" to gratify one's partner's sadism).

2. PSEUDO-SUBMISSIVE NON-SLAVE.
Not into even playing "slave," but into other "submissive" role-playing, e.g. schoolteacher scenes, infantilism, "forced" transvestism. Usually into humiliation, but NOT into servitude, even in play. Dictates the scene to a large degree.

3. PSEUDO-SUBMISSIVE PLAY SLAVE.
Likes to play at being a slave; likes to feel subservient; may in some cases like to feel one is being "used" to gratify partner's sadism; may even really serve the dominant in some ways, but only on the "slave's" own terms. Dictates the scene to a large degree; often fetishistic (e.g. foot worshippers).

4. TRUE SUBMISSIVE NON-SLAVE.
Really gives up control (only temporarily and within agreed-upon limits), but gets her/his main satisfaction from aspects of submission other than serving or being used by the dominant. Usually turned on by suspense, vulnerability, and/or giving up responsbility. Doesn't dictate the scene except in very general terms, but still seek mainly her/his own direct/pleasure (rather than getting one's pleasure mainly from pleasing the dominant).

5. TRUE SUBMISSIVE PLAY SLAVE.
Really gives up control (though only temporarily; only during brief "scenes" and within limits) and gets main satisfaction from serving/being used by dominant-but only for FUN purposes, usually erotic. May/may not be into pain. If so, is turned on by pain indirectly, i.e. enjoys being the object of one's partner's sadism, on which the submissive places very few requirements or restrictions.

6. UNCOMMITTED SHORT-TERM BUT MORE THAN PLAY SEMI-SLAVE.
Really gives up control (usually within limits); wants to serve and be used by the dominant; wants to provide practical/non erotic as well as fun/erotic services; but only when the "slave" is in the mood. May even act as a full-time slave for, say, several days at a time, but is free to quit at any time (or at the end of the agreed upon several days). May or may not have long-term relationship with one's Mistress, but, either way, the "slave" has the final say over when she will serve.

7. PART-TIME CONSENSUAL-BUT REAL SLAVE.
Has an ongoing commitment to an owner/slave relationship and regards oneself as the dominant's property at all times. Wants to obey and please dom(me) in all aspects of life-practical/non erotic and fun/erotic. Devotes most of time to other commitments (e.g. job) but Dom(me) has first pick of the slave's free time.

8. FULL-TIME LIVE IN CONSENSUAL SLAVE.
Within no more than a few broad limits/requirements, the slave regards herself/himself as existing solely for the Dom(me)'s pleasure/well being. Slave in turn expects to be regarded as a prized possession. Not much different from the situation of the traditional housewife, except that within the S/M world the slave's position is more likely to be fully consensual, especially of the slave is male. Within the S/M world, a full time "slave" arrangement is entered into with an explicit awareness of the magnitude carefully, with more awareness of the magnitude of power that is being given up, and hence is usually entered into much more carefully, with more awareness of the possible dangers, and with much clearer and more specific agreements than usually precede the traditional marriage.

9. CONSENSUAL TOTAL SLAVE WITH NO LIMITS.
A common fantasy ideal which probably doesn't exist in real life (except in authoritarian religious cults and other situations where the "consent" is induced by brainwashing and/or social or economic pressures, and hence isn't fully consensual). A few S/M purists will insist that you aren't really a slave unless you're willing to do absolutely anything for your Dom(me), with no limits at all. I've met a few people who claimed to be no-limit slaves, but in all cases I have reason to doubt the claim.


"9 Levels of Submission" Copyright 1984 and 1988, Diane Vera

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/28/2004 6:59:52 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smile2cu

Now if proudsub would be good enough to tell me how to paste a link into a message, please?

Adding a link to your posts is very easy. In the message editor, mouse over and highlight the word or phrase you want to be the clickable link. Once it's highlighted, click on the "Link" button above the font size selection box. Another small window will open up and you cut and paste the URL into the middle box.

Piece of cake.

Happy linking!

~stef

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Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/28/2004 7:08:41 PM   
atHisfeet


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thank you

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/28/2004 8:10:28 PM   
proudsub


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quote:

Now if proudsub would be good enough to tell me how to paste a link into a message, please? She does this so much better than me, so I'll give her her job back.


Sfgrrl beat me to it.

Here are links to the earlier threads on this:

9 levels of submission

9 levels of submission

< Message edited by proudsub -- 11/28/2004 8:16:02 PM >


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proudsub

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/29/2004 5:48:04 AM   
smile2cu


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Hi stef,

How sneaky to hide the link function under the link button.

Thanks,

_____________________________

Friendly, kind, cheerful, and oral.

~smile~

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/29/2004 5:53:39 AM   
MrThorns


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Hopefully all my past gripes about the inaccuracies of blanket labeling will be included in the links provided. If not, just let me know and I'll be more than happy to restate them.

~Thorns

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~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/29/2004 6:27:49 AM   
MemphisDsCouple


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1. Thanks Steve.

2. Thorns' insinuation (and I presume his "past gripes about the inaccuracies of blanket labeling" are right on target). (Presumption because I haven't read them.)

3. There should be no confusion (for those who embrace education) about the difference between submission and slavery. That is precisely why we have dictionaries.

4. I believe this "9 levels" thing is an excellent example of the inherent danger of learning about d/s and s&m on the internet. Any half-baked, inane concept can be "published" and presented as factual. The only modest (and in my mind exceedingly understated) qualification to either the accuracy or veracity of these "9 levels" is the understatement that "these are not rigid definitions of submission". While not claiming rigidity, by omission the writer claims accuracy, and that is plainly not so.

Postscript:

You are welcome to print or save this post for your own use. Please do not copy it to any public or semi-public forum (including email groups/lists) without my express permission. Thanks. All rights reserved. (I write this postscript because after-the-fact someone wrote to me to inform me that they had copied a prior post I wrote to another list. So, I thought I'd better clarify what my preference/policy is regarding use of what I write.)

B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)



quote:

Here you go... You can also find this on the internet... Just do a search with the words," 9 levels of submission", & you'll find the links (two of worth). ~Sir Steve of Seattle

{Within the S/M subculture, different people use the words "submissive and slave" to mean many different things. When submissives say "I want to be your slave," sometimes they mean only that they want to be tied up and whipped. Many professional Dominants routinely refer to their (usually not very genuinely submissive clients) as "slaves." At the other extreme, there are people who want to be full-time personal servants, and who truly want to exist solely for their Dom/me's use, pleasure and convenience. And there are many shades in between these two extremes.}

9 Levels of Submission

By Diane Vera

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/29/2004 8:44:03 AM   
darkinshadows


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Yikes... this is why Angel dislikes labels!

From Angels personal opinion, I would find it insulting to a slave if I heard anyone just begging to 'be your slave' just to get tied up. For many, slavery is way more deeper than a quick bondage session with slap an tickle thrown in for good measure...


As MemphisCouple said, the difference between submission and slavery is there for those who wish to seek enlightenment... Indeed there is much difference between slavery, submission and service... and Angel personally feels that articles such as the one stated can only cause confusion...


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/29/2004 1:02:00 PM   
AlphaGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

4. I believe this "9 levels" thing is an excellent example of the inherent danger of learning about d/s and s&m on the internet. Any half-baked, inane concept can be "published" and presented as factual. The only modest (and in my mind exceedingly understated) qualification to either the accuracy or veracity of these "9 levels" is the understatement that "these are not rigid definitions of submission". While not claiming rigidity, by omission the writer claims accuracy, and that is plainly not so.



Agreed!!!!!

There is too much crap on the internet to cite this as an authoritative source. I believe it was Harlan Ellison that said "90% of everything is crap.". Of course, this holds to my own online ramblings, so only believe 10% of what I type. *chuckle*

While these levels probably shouldn't be considered as a guide map for potential subbies as they travel their own way, I can see that it may have some value in that it gives a bit more of a common framework for discussion as to where they see themselves.

Seriously, folks, never base one tiny little bit of flotsam on the information superhighway to be "The One Twue Way". Do your research, discuss with trusted friends and associates, and find the way that is most true for you. :-)

Cheers!

A_G

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/29/2004 2:06:41 PM   
Hawkins


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Obviously this was taken from the 'Great Book of Dom', 1 Submissions 2:1-9.

List making can be useful.

Sometimes it is creating artificial monochromatic divisons where there is only ever one of millions of shades of grey. Sure, there's some commonsense behind it. But the risk is that people will feel that being able to divide things into artificial catagories will make them a 'better' kinky person.

The people who make the most impact on me are those who recount their own journey, tell of their own experiences, insights and mistakes. By telling people what worked for them, they help people far more than giving them a list, although a few bullets-points every now and then for clarity is fine . Seeing how different people dealt with the same situation can give you guidance on how to move forward, but will not ever make you think there is 'one true path'.

The more you read of different people the clearer it is that for all the common scenery on the way, we each have our own path.

_____________________________

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/29/2004 8:19:54 PM   
mtsilence


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I have to assume from reading this thread and reading the nine levels of submission that these are being offered as real and valid. Moreover, I have always thought that the levels of submission were marked by the characteristics of the person purporting to be a submissive. Outward signs as it were of inward realities. If that is actually so then there are far more then nine levels or traits of submissives. Please bear with me on this little discourse since, I really do what to understand if people really believe you can block submissives off into categories or rather there really are agreed upon outward signs, as I have been lead to believe having traveled from the Dominant side of BDSM into the submissive side seeking my 'bliss' as it were. If I am, correct then 17 traits of a submissive mark or denote a submissive in their behavior and demeanor. These being: 1) Acceptance, 2) Communication, 3) Courtesy (Manners), 4) Grace, 5) Growth, 6) Honesty,7) Humility ,8) Intelligence, 9) Loyalty, 10) Obedience, 11) Open Mind, 12) Patience, 13) Pride: (self respect, self esteem, 14) Respect, 15) Service, 16) Submissiveness, 17) Trust. Now I could easily begin to break down each one of these categories and try to define what each one means and what it reflects and how it manifests, but I am of the opinion that most people here on Collar me are highly educated and can determine the definitions on their own. That and I firmly believe when we start labeling things we immediately take a stance of being no better then those who automatically label those interested in or involved in BDSM as being emotionally or mentally broken. This of course takes us right back to the post Victorian Era discourse on what connotes normal sexual behavior and what denotes aberrant behavior. Of course, I could have misread this whole thread and its intent was nothing more then a delightful romp into supposition, rather then serious intent to define or understand the workings of the submissive heart and mind. (please be aware that I am being inclusive here of the slave heart and mind as well since there is a fine line drawn between the two when you have a service oriented submissive to work with.) Thank you for your patience in this matter. Silence

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/30/2004 12:06:23 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Yup, I agree with this too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

4. I believe this "9 levels" thing is an excellent example of the inherent danger of learning about d/s and s&m on the internet. Any half-baked, inane concept can be "published" and presented as factual. The only modest (and in my mind exceedingly understated) qualification to either the accuracy or veracity of these "9 levels" is the understatement that "these are not rigid definitions of submission". While not claiming rigidity, by omission the writer claims accuracy, and that is plainly not so.


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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 11/30/2004 5:14:46 AM   
topcat


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Midear Silence-

that was quite a good post, thoughtful and though- but might I request that you use some paragraph breaks in the future?

It makes things much more readable...

Thank you

stay warm,
Lawrence


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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 12/2/2004 9:52:49 AM   
juicycute


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

Hopefully all my past gripes about the inaccuracies of blanket labeling will be included in the links provided. If not, just let me know and I'll be more than happy to restate them.

~Thorns


LOL I remember them. *smiles*

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 12/2/2004 10:31:46 AM   
Nvernilla


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I've never been much good at following rules, well unless I consider them valid, and there are not many of those. This is some good reading and will make good discussion though. thx Mike

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RE: 9 levels of Submission? - 12/2/2004 11:53:55 AM   
AlphaGeek


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So which polyhedra dice does a 9th level submissive throw to save versus a Grand Master Dom or go Vanilla?

A_G

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