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Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 11:21:29 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
In the article below, there are two 'bold-ed" areas. I did that for emphasis.

Please answer this question before you discuss the article: Do you think the POW-MIA flag is racist?

By the way, here is the site of the article:

http://www.newsweek.com/its-time-haul-down-another-flag-racist-hate-361929

The Story Behind the POW/MIA Flag

Rick Perlstein is the national correspondent of The Washington Spectator, on whose site this article first appeared. This piece was updated by the Spectator on August 13 to remove the word "racist" from the headline, and has been similarly adjusted here. An apology from the author and a response from Spectator editor Lou Dubose were also appended to the original article and have been replicated here at the bottom of the piece.

You know that racist flag? The one that supposedly honors history but actually spreads a pernicious myth? And is useful only to venal right-wing politicians who wish to exploit hatred by calling it heritage? It’s past time to pull it down.

Oh, wait. You thought I was referring to the Confederate flag. Actually, I’m talking about the POW/MIA flag.

I told the story in the first chapter of my 2014 book The Invisible Bridge: The Fall of Nixon and the Rise of Reagan: how Richard Nixon invented the cult of the “POW/MIA” in order to justify the carnage in Vietnam in a way that rendered the United States as its sole victim.

It began, as cultural historian H. Bruce Franklin has documented, with an opportunistic shift in terminology. Downed pilots whose bodies were not recovered—which, in the dense jungle of a place like Vietnam meant most pilots—had once been classified “Killed in Action/Body Unrecovered.”

During the Nixon years, the Pentagon moved them into a newly invented “Missing in Action” column. That proved convenient, for, after years of playing down the existence of American prisoners in Vietnam, in 1969, the new president suddenly decided to play them up.

He declared their treatment, and the enemy’s refusal to provide a list of their names, violations of the Geneva Conventions—the better to paint the North Vietnamese as uniquely cruel and inhumane. He also demanded the release of American prisoners as a precondition to ending the war.

This was bullshit four times over: first, because in every other conflict in human history, the release of prisoners had been something settled at the close of a war; second, because these prisoners only existed because of America’s antecedent violations of the Geneva Conventions in bombing civilians in an undeclared war; third, because, as bad as their torture of prisoners was, rather than representing some species of Oriental despotism, the Vietnam Communists were only borrowing techniques practiced on them by their French colonists (and incidentally paid forward by us in places like Abu Ghraib): see this as-told-to memoir by POW and future senator Jeremiah Denton. And finally, our South Vietnamese allies’ treatment of their prisoners, who lived manacled to the floors in crippling underground bamboo “tiger cages” in prison camps built by us, was far worse than the torture our personnel suffered.

(Time magazine quoted one South Vietnamese official who was confronted with stories of released prisoners moving “like crabs, skittering across the floor on buttocks and palms,” and responded with incredulity that such survivors even existed: “No one ever comes from the tiger cages alive.”)

Be that as it may: It worked. American citizens enacted a bizarre psychic reversal. A man from Virginia Beach, Virginia, described to a reporter the supposed treatment of American prisoners in North Vietnam: “They just dig holes in the ground and drop them in. They throw food down to them, and let them live there in their own waste.” In fact, that was how prisoners were treated in South Vietnam—as recently revealed in a shocking Life magazine exposé.

Children began wearing “POW bracelets,” drivers sported “POWs NEVER HAVE A NICE DAY” bumper stickers. As the late Jonathan Schell of The New Yorker memorably wrote during the war, the Americans were acting “as though the North Vietnamese had kidnapped 400 Americans and the United States had gone to war to retrieve them.”

Actually, it was worse: Whenever Nixon or one of his minions talked about the problem, they tended to use the number 1,400. The number of actual prisoners, was about 550. The number of downed, missing pilots were spoken of, prima facia, as if they were missing, too, although almost all of them were certainly dead.

And in 1971 that damned flag went up.

The flag was the creation of the National League of Families of Prisoners of War, later the National League of Families of American Prisoners and Missing in Southeast Asia, a fascinating part of the story in itself.

The organization was founded by POW wife Sybil Stockdale, during the Johnson administration, in an effort to embarrass LBJ and challenge his line that all in Vietnam was going swell. Johnson tried to silence them; Nixon’s people, however, spying opportunity, coopted the group, sometimes inventing chapters outright, to fan the propaganda flames.

Then the war ended, the POWs (yes, all the POWs) were repatriated to great fanfare, one of them declaring: “I want you to remember that we walked out of Hanoi as winners”—a declaration that seemed to suggest, almost, that by surviving, the POWs had won the Vietnam War.

The moral confusion was abetted by the flag: the barbed-wire misery of that stark white figure, emblazoned in black.

It memorializes Americans as the preeminent victims of the Vietnam War, a notion seared into the nation’s visual unconscious by the Oscar-nominated 1978 film The Deer Hunter, which depicts acts of sadism, which were documented to have been carried out by our South Vietnamese allies, as acts committed by our North Vietnamese enemies, including the famous scene pictured on The Deer Hunter poster: a pistol pointed at the American prisoner’s head at exactly the same angle of the gun in the famous photograph of the summary execution in the middle of the street of an alleged Communist spy by a South Vietnamese official.

By then, the league and its flag had become the Pentagon’s own Frankenstein’s monster. You can read about the mess that resulted in the definitive book on the subject: Until the Last Man Comes Home: POWs, MIAs, and the Unending Vietnam War by Northwestern University’s Michael J. Allen.

Allen describes how Vietnam’s “refusal” to “account for” a thousand phantoms became an impediment to reconciliation and diplomatic recognition between the two nations. (How bizarre, how insulting, how counterproductive this must have been to a nation that must have suffered missing corpses in the thousands upon thousands?)

A delegation led by Congressman Gillespie “Sonny” Montgomery (D-Miss.), chairman of the House Select Committee on Missing in Action in Southeast Asia, traveled to Vietnam in 1975, convinced of the Nixon administration’s deception that hundreds of “MIAs actually” existed. The members of Congress returned home, having found their Communist hosts warm and accommodating, doubting there were any missing at all. In hearings, a CIA pilot captured there in 1965 testified: “If you take a wallet-full of money over there, you can buy all the information you want on POWs on the streets.”

The House committee also produced evidence that China had manufactured stories of MIA in Vietnamese prison camps in order to keep the U.S. from normalizing relations with China’s Asian rival. No matter that the flag’s promoters were abetting an actual, real-live Communist conspiracy, from its original sightings above VFW and American Legion posts, the “You Are Not Forgotten” flag became as common as kudzu.

Midwifing an entire metastasizing Pentagon bureaucracy, the League of Families would also become an irritant to every future president. By 1993, 17 Americans were stationed in Hanoi in charge of searching for the missing and working to repatriate remains. They were provided a budget of $100 million a year, “over 30 times the value of U.S. humanitarian aid paid to Vietnam,” Allen writes.

It would have been evidence of Ronald Reagan’s old saw that the closest thing to eternal life is a government program—if Reagan were not a prime culprit: In 1988, he became the first president to fly the flag over the White House. The next year, Congress installed the flag in the Capitol rotunda.

In 1990, it was designated “a symbol of our nation’s concern and commitment to restoring and resolving as fully as possible the fates of Americans still prisoner, missing and unaccounted for in Southeast Asia.” Thus ending the uncertainty for their families and the nation.

The League of Families also still exists, and “continues to work at keeping the pressure on both Washington and Hanoi to bring complete resolution to this issue on behalf of each family with a loved one still missing in Vietnam.” My own state of Illinois holds a ceremony every year to honor the “66 Illinoisans listed as MIA or POW in Southeast Asia.”

And Bernie Sanders posted an image of the POW/MIA flag on Facebook in response to Donald Trump’s insult against John McCain. The message read: “They are all heroes.”

Actually, as I document in The Invisible Bridge, it’s more complicated than that: many of the prisoners were anti-war activists. One member of the “Peace Committee” within the POW camps, Abel Larry Kavanaugh, was harassed into suicide after his return to the U.S. by the likes of Admiral James Stockdale, who tried to get Peace Committee members hanged for treason.

Stockdale would become one of the nation’s most celebrated former POWs and a vice-presidential candidate. Kavanaugh took his life in his father in law’s basement in Commerce City, Colorado, in June 1973. Americans would agree that one of them—Stockdale or Kavanaugh—is not a hero—though they would disagree about which one is which.

That damned flag: It’s a shroud. It smothers the complexity, the reality, of what really happened in Vietnam.

We’ve come to our senses about that other banner of lies. It’s time to do the same with this.

A Writer’s Apology

I sincerely regret the use of the word “racist” to describe how the POW/MIA flag distorts the history of the Vietnam War. The word was over the top and not called for.

I’m deeply sorry it hurt people—especially people who’ve selflessly served their country. Most of all, I’m sorry because many of the people offended by the word “racist” are the same people who were hurt when the experiences and feelings of common soldiers and veterans were manipulated to serve the powerful interests and individuals who blithely and perennially send men and women to war, then don’t take care of them when they return home. And, of course, I regret the pain caused to the families of those who gave the last full measure of devotion to their country in Southeast Asia.

I would ask the people I angered to consider carefully reading the article, which explains, for example, that the Chinese Communists cynically leaked lies about the existence of live POWs in the years after the war in order to harm their rival Vietnam.

Most of all, I wish to express my regrets. Other than that, I stand by my article. —Rick Perlstein

The Editor’s Response

We published Rick Perlstein’s article on the POW/MIA flag, because it insightfully examines the cynical manipulation of public opinion at the expense of the downed pilots and foot soldiers the creators of the MIA movement claimed to represent. Perlstein is an accomplished historian who has spent years researching the Nixon and Reagan years. He knows this material. Our prolonged national discussion of the tragic Southeast Asian war that extended beyond Vietnam is often framed in what can be reasonably described as racist terms. The defenders of an Asian country that was invaded, bombed, defoliated and savaged (see: Kill Anything that Moves by Nick Turse) are vilified, while the invaders are beatified. Neither position is correct or fair. It was a persistent yet perhaps understandable disregard for the “other” victims of a war, beyond our own nation’s tragic losses, that informed the piece.

Nowhere is it suggested, nor do we imply, that individuals who remain devoted to the POW/MIA flag are racist. And it was neither Mr. Perlstein’s intent, nor ours, to dishonor those who served in Vietnam, although based on comments of readers, many were offended. A more careful editor would have moved the term “racist” lower in the body of the story and kept it out of the headline, where it was an unintended red flag that provoked the understandable ire of many readers. —Lou Dubose
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RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 11:48:02 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

In the article below, there are two 'bold-ed" areas. I did that for emphasis.

Please answer this question before you discuss the article: Do you think the POW-MIA flag is racist?

By the way, here is the site of the article:

http://www.newsweek.com/its-time-haul-down-another-flag-racist-hate-361929

The Story Behind the POW/MIA Flag

Rick Perlstein is the national correspondent of The Washington Spectator, on whose site this article first appeared. This piece was updated by the Spectator on August 13 to remove the word "racist" from the headline, and has been similarly adjusted here. An apology from the author and a response from Spectator editor Lou Dubose were also appended to the original article and have been replicated here at the bottom of the piece.

You know that racist flag? The one that supposedly honors history but actually spreads a pernicious myth? And is useful only to venal right-wing politicians who wish to exploit hatred by calling it heritage? It’s past time to pull it down.

Oh, wait. You thought I was referring to the Confederate flag. Actually, I’m talking about the POW/MIA flag.

I told the story in the first chapter of my 2014 book The Invisible Bridge: The Fall of Nixon and the Rise of Reagan: how Richard Nixon invented the cult of the “POW/MIA” in order to justify the carnage in Vietnam in a way that rendered the United States as its sole victim.

It began, as cultural historian H. Bruce Franklin has documented, with an opportunistic shift in terminology. Downed pilots whose bodies were not recovered—which, in the dense jungle of a place like Vietnam meant most pilots—had once been classified “Killed in Action/Body Unrecovered.”

During the Nixon years, the Pentagon moved them into a newly invented “Missing in Action” column. That proved convenient, for, after years of playing down the existence of American prisoners in Vietnam, in 1969, the new president suddenly decided to play them up.

He declared their treatment, and the enemy’s refusal to provide a list of their names, violations of the Geneva Conventions—the better to paint the North Vietnamese as uniquely cruel and inhumane. He also demanded the release of American prisoners as a precondition to ending the war.

This was bullshit four times over: first, because in every other conflict in human history, the release of prisoners had been something settled at the close of a war; second, because these prisoners only existed because of America’s antecedent violations of the Geneva Conventions in bombing civilians in an undeclared war; third, because, as bad as their torture of prisoners was, rather than representing some species of Oriental despotism, the Vietnam Communists were only borrowing techniques practiced on them by their French colonists (and incidentally paid forward by us in places like Abu Ghraib): see this as-told-to memoir by POW and future senator Jeremiah Denton. And finally, our South Vietnamese allies’ treatment of their prisoners, who lived manacled to the floors in crippling underground bamboo “tiger cages” in prison camps built by us, was far worse than the torture our personnel suffered.

(Time magazine quoted one South Vietnamese official who was confronted with stories of released prisoners moving “like crabs, skittering across the floor on buttocks and palms,” and responded with incredulity that such survivors even existed: “No one ever comes from the tiger cages alive.”)

Be that as it may: It worked. American citizens enacted a bizarre psychic reversal. A man from Virginia Beach, Virginia, described to a reporter the supposed treatment of American prisoners in North Vietnam: “They just dig holes in the ground and drop them in. They throw food down to them, and let them live there in their own waste.” In fact, that was how prisoners were treated in South Vietnam—as recently revealed in a shocking Life magazine exposé.

Children began wearing “POW bracelets,” drivers sported “POWs NEVER HAVE A NICE DAY” bumper stickers. As the late Jonathan Schell of The New Yorker memorably wrote during the war, the Americans were acting “as though the North Vietnamese had kidnapped 400 Americans and the United States had gone to war to retrieve them.”

Actually, it was worse: Whenever Nixon or one of his minions talked about the problem, they tended to use the number 1,400. The number of actual prisoners, was about 550. The number of downed, missing pilots were spoken of, prima facia, as if they were missing, too, although almost all of them were certainly dead.

And in 1971 that damned flag went up.

The flag was the creation of the National League of Families of Prisoners of War, later the National League of Families of American Prisoners and Missing in Southeast Asia, a fascinating part of the story in itself.

The organization was founded by POW wife Sybil Stockdale, during the Johnson administration, in an effort to embarrass LBJ and challenge his line that all in Vietnam was going swell. Johnson tried to silence them; Nixon’s people, however, spying opportunity, coopted the group, sometimes inventing chapters outright, to fan the propaganda flames.

Then the war ended, the POWs (yes, all the POWs) were repatriated to great fanfare, one of them declaring: “I want you to remember that we walked out of Hanoi as winners”—a declaration that seemed to suggest, almost, that by surviving, the POWs had won the Vietnam War.

The moral confusion was abetted by the flag: the barbed-wire misery of that stark white figure, emblazoned in black.

It memorializes Americans as the preeminent victims of the Vietnam War, a notion seared into the nation’s visual unconscious by the Oscar-nominated 1978 film The Deer Hunter, which depicts acts of sadism, which were documented to have been carried out by our South Vietnamese allies, as acts committed by our North Vietnamese enemies, including the famous scene pictured on The Deer Hunter poster: a pistol pointed at the American prisoner’s head at exactly the same angle of the gun in the famous photograph of the summary execution in the middle of the street of an alleged Communist spy by a South Vietnamese official.

By then, the league and its flag had become the Pentagon’s own Frankenstein’s monster. You can read about the mess that resulted in the definitive book on the subject: Until the Last Man Comes Home: POWs, MIAs, and the Unending Vietnam War by Northwestern University’s Michael J. Allen.

Allen describes how Vietnam’s “refusal” to “account for” a thousand phantoms became an impediment to reconciliation and diplomatic recognition between the two nations. (How bizarre, how insulting, how counterproductive this must have been to a nation that must have suffered missing corpses in the thousands upon thousands?)

A delegation led by Congressman Gillespie “Sonny” Montgomery (D-Miss.), chairman of the House Select Committee on Missing in Action in Southeast Asia, traveled to Vietnam in 1975, convinced of the Nixon administration’s deception that hundreds of “MIAs actually” existed. The members of Congress returned home, having found their Communist hosts warm and accommodating, doubting there were any missing at all. In hearings, a CIA pilot captured there in 1965 testified: “If you take a wallet-full of money over there, you can buy all the information you want on POWs on the streets.”

The House committee also produced evidence that China had manufactured stories of MIA in Vietnamese prison camps in order to keep the U.S. from normalizing relations with China’s Asian rival. No matter that the flag’s promoters were abetting an actual, real-live Communist conspiracy, from its original sightings above VFW and American Legion posts, the “You Are Not Forgotten” flag became as common as kudzu.

Midwifing an entire metastasizing Pentagon bureaucracy, the League of Families would also become an irritant to every future president. By 1993, 17 Americans were stationed in Hanoi in charge of searching for the missing and working to repatriate remains. They were provided a budget of $100 million a year, “over 30 times the value of U.S. humanitarian aid paid to Vietnam,” Allen writes.

It would have been evidence of Ronald Reagan’s old saw that the closest thing to eternal life is a government program—if Reagan were not a prime culprit: In 1988, he became the first president to fly the flag over the White House. The next year, Congress installed the flag in the Capitol rotunda.

In 1990, it was designated “a symbol of our nation’s concern and commitment to restoring and resolving as fully as possible the fates of Americans still prisoner, missing and unaccounted for in Southeast Asia.” Thus ending the uncertainty for their families and the nation.

The League of Families also still exists, and “continues to work at keeping the pressure on both Washington and Hanoi to bring complete resolution to this issue on behalf of each family with a loved one still missing in Vietnam.” My own state of Illinois holds a ceremony every year to honor the “66 Illinoisans listed as MIA or POW in Southeast Asia.”

And Bernie Sanders posted an image of the POW/MIA flag on Facebook in response to Donald Trump’s insult against John McCain. The message read: “They are all heroes.”

Actually, as I document in The Invisible Bridge, it’s more complicated than that: many of the prisoners were anti-war activists. One member of the “Peace Committee” within the POW camps, Abel Larry Kavanaugh, was harassed into suicide after his return to the U.S. by the likes of Admiral James Stockdale, who tried to get Peace Committee members hanged for treason.

Stockdale would become one of the nation’s most celebrated former POWs and a vice-presidential candidate. Kavanaugh took his life in his father in law’s basement in Commerce City, Colorado, in June 1973. Americans would agree that one of them—Stockdale or Kavanaugh—is not a hero—though they would disagree about which one is which.

That damned flag: It’s a shroud. It smothers the complexity, the reality, of what really happened in Vietnam.

We’ve come to our senses about that other banner of lies. It’s time to do the same with this.

A Writer’s Apology

I sincerely regret the use of the word “racist” to describe how the POW/MIA flag distorts the history of the Vietnam War. The word was over the top and not called for.

I’m deeply sorry it hurt people—especially people who’ve selflessly served their country. Most of all, I’m sorry because many of the people offended by the word “racist” are the same people who were hurt when the experiences and feelings of common soldiers and veterans were manipulated to serve the powerful interests and individuals who blithely and perennially send men and women to war, then don’t take care of them when they return home. And, of course, I regret the pain caused to the families of those who gave the last full measure of devotion to their country in Southeast Asia.

I would ask the people I angered to consider carefully reading the article, which explains, for example, that the Chinese Communists cynically leaked lies about the existence of live POWs in the years after the war in order to harm their rival Vietnam.

Most of all, I wish to express my regrets. Other than that, I stand by my article. —Rick Perlstein

The Editor’s Response

We published Rick Perlstein’s article on the POW/MIA flag, because it insightfully examines the cynical manipulation of public opinion at the expense of the downed pilots and foot soldiers the creators of the MIA movement claimed to represent. Perlstein is an accomplished historian who has spent years researching the Nixon and Reagan years. He knows this material. Our prolonged national discussion of the tragic Southeast Asian war that extended beyond Vietnam is often framed in what can be reasonably described as racist terms. The defenders of an Asian country that was invaded, bombed, defoliated and savaged (see: Kill Anything that Moves by Nick Turse) are vilified, while the invaders are beatified. Neither position is correct or fair. It was a persistent yet perhaps understandable disregard for the “other” victims of a war, beyond our own nation’s tragic losses, that informed the piece.

Nowhere is it suggested, nor do we imply, that individuals who remain devoted to the POW/MIA flag are racist. And it was neither Mr. Perlstein’s intent, nor ours, to dishonor those who served in Vietnam, although based on comments of readers, many were offended. A more careful editor would have moved the term “racist” lower in the body of the story and kept it out of the headline, where it was an unintended red flag that provoked the understandable ire of many readers. —Lou Dubose

Not only is his original article insulting but so is his "apology".

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/17/2015 11:55:00 AM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 11:54:29 AM   
KenDckey


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Wonder how good a friend of Hanoi Jane he is. Just wondering

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RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 11:58:28 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Wonder how good a friend of Hanoi Jane he is. Just wondering

Close, if not personally then philosophically.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 12:14:08 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:


"It memorializes Americans as the preeminent victims of the Vietnam War..."

I realize people are entitled to their own opinions but I can't think of a single person I know of that actually remembers Vietnam who believes Americans were just victims. That includes my two cousins who fought there. Mr. Perlstein needs a napalm enema.

_____________________________

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"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 12:30:26 PM   
MrRodgers


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Joined: 7/30/2005
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The entire enterprise was a 'cynical manipulation of public opinion' and therefore [its] emotions about mostly Americans military victims and those at home, who all paid a huge price for that war.

From 1964, that war was everything it was supposed to be: a rent-seeking, for profit war of human attrition that was to never end and that proved geopolitically irrelevant. After all, the French went into Vietnam to 'give' the Vietnamese a 'good deal' for their rubber on behalf of Michelin. Sound familiar ?

Racist is not a wholly meaningless term in that many westerners and even Asians didn't give a shit about any of the victims...particularly Asian victims.


< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 8/17/2015 12:37:08 PM >

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RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 12:47:27 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The entire enterprise was a 'cynical manipulation of public opinion' and therefore [its] emotions about mostly Americans military victims and those at home, who all paid a huge price for that war.

From 1964, that war was everything it was supposed to be: a rent-seeking, for profit war of human attrition that was to never end and that proved geopolitically irrelevant. After all, the French went into Vietnam to 'give' the Vietnamese a 'good deal' for their rubber on behalf of Michelin. Sound familiar ?

Racist is not a wholly meaningless term in that many westerners and even Asians didn't give a shit about any of the victims...particularly Asian victims.


Yes, I know, America is evil, other than you Americans are evil, Republicans are even more evil, and anyone who has been in the US military are the most evil people in the world, blah blah blah.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 12:50:44 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:


"It memorializes Americans as the preeminent victims of the Vietnam War..."

I realize people are entitled to their own opinions but I can't think of a single person I know of that actually remembers Vietnam who believes Americans were just victims. That includes my two cousins who fought there. Mr. Perlstein needs a napalm enema.

White phosphorus applied to the extremities. Slower.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 12:57:03 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The entire enterprise was a 'cynical manipulation of public opinion' and therefore [its] emotions about mostly Americans military victims and those at home, who all paid a huge price for that war.

From 1964, that war was everything it was supposed to be: a rent-seeking, for profit war of human attrition that was to never end and that proved geopolitically irrelevant. After all, the French went into Vietnam to 'give' the Vietnamese a 'good deal' for their rubber on behalf of Michelin. Sound familiar ?

Racist is not a wholly meaningless term in that many westerners and even Asians didn't give a shit about any of the victims...particularly Asian victims.


And trashing them 40 years later isn't cynical. He saw the anti white racism going on now as a opportunity to trash people who have sacrificed more for their country than he would even consider sacrificing.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 4:11:12 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The entire enterprise was a 'cynical manipulation of public opinion' and therefore [its] emotions about mostly Americans military victims and those at home, who all paid a huge price for that war.

From 1964, that war was everything it was supposed to be: a rent-seeking, for profit war of human attrition that was to never end and that proved geopolitically irrelevant. After all, the French went into Vietnam to 'give' the Vietnamese a 'good deal' for their rubber on behalf of Michelin. Sound familiar ?

Racist is not a wholly meaningless term in that many westerners and even Asians didn't give a shit about any of the victims...particularly Asian victims.


And trashing them 40 years later isn't cynical. He saw the anti white racism going on now as a opportunity to trash people who have sacrificed more for their country than he would even consider sacrificing.

Don't forget...he has a book. Apparently didn't sell too well when it first came out. It explains ALLLLLL that he stated in the article.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 4:34:23 PM   
ChrisMontreal


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/27/2014
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What most of you gun totting war mongering americans fail to realise is that not every anti-war person is against the soldiers. No one said the soldiers were evil. The soldiers did provide a huge sacrifice, that is obvious. I believe the authors point is that the soldiers were used for a political issue that had nothing to do with the US, freedom, democracy or American interests. Vietnam presented no threat to the US homeland or regionally to US interests.

The soldiers went there to do their duty as they had been trained to do. Unfortunately they were used as pawns in a idiotic childish us against them pissing war that the US never should have been involved in.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 5:45:52 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisMontreal

What most of you gun totting war mongering americans fail to realise is that not every anti-war person is against the soldiers. No one said the soldiers were evil. The soldiers did provide a huge sacrifice, that is obvious. I believe the authors point is that the soldiers were used for a political issue that had nothing to do with the US, freedom, democracy or American interests. Vietnam presented no threat to the US homeland or regionally to US interests.

The soldiers went there to do their duty as they had been trained to do. Unfortunately they were used as pawns in a idiotic childish us against them pissing war that the US never should have been involved in.
And what some anti-war pansy Iike you fails to recognize is that there are plenty of us war-mongerers who were IN the military during the Vietnam Era and after that know all about the liberal take on the "political war machine" and all about the extreme right wing "fuck yeah, let's go kill us some commies...right or wrong" view and realize there's truth to both sides, that it's not all black and white. There are many hues of grey in the picture.

That doesn't diminish the efforts of the ones who fought and died nor the actions of those who fought and were captured or went missing. While I have no doubt that many of the men I served with joined up looking for action or a paycheck or a route to college or maybe to kill somebody, most of them joined out of a sense of loyalty to our country and a desire to show gratitude through service.

None of that makes us 'racist'. None of that, nor the reasons given in the article, makes that flag 'racist'.

Whether the author meant to or not, he wound up cutting down the American soldier. Personally, I think he meant to do just that. Like a lot of the 'support our troops but not the war' types, he apologized because not only was he called to task for it but so was the magazine he wrote it for. I think that, like many...though not all...'support the troops but not the war' types, he knows it is not politically expedient to downgrade the troops nowadays. So, he says what he really feels, then apologize when called on it. And even in apologizing in calling that flag 'racist', he still stands by everything else he said about it. In other words, 'the hell with what you soldiers...whose brothers were part of the'creation' of that flag...take it to mean, THIS is what I say it represents AND since I'm a journalist and left-leaning...the noble anti-war type...I'm right.


< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 8/17/2015 6:04:54 PM >

(in reply to ChrisMontreal)
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RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 5:51:19 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisMontreal

What most of you gun totting war mongering americans fail to realise is that not every anti-war person is against the soldiers. No one said the soldiers were evil. The soldiers did provide a huge sacrifice, that is obvious. I believe the authors point is that the soldiers were used for a political issue that had nothing to do with the US, freedom, democracy or American interests. Vietnam presented no threat to the US homeland or regionally to US interests.

The soldiers went there to do their duty as they had been trained to do. Unfortunately they were used as pawns in a idiotic childish us against them pissing war that the US never should have been involved in.

And what you don't realize is that by insisting that we fight like gentlemen and by demanding that we cut and run at the first problem you cause more servicemen to be killed.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to ChrisMontreal)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 5:55:05 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisMontreal

What most of you gun totting war mongering americans fail to realise is that not every anti-war person is against the soldiers. No one said the soldiers were evil. The soldiers did provide a huge sacrifice, that is obvious. I believe the authors point is that the soldiers were used for a political issue that had nothing to do with the US, freedom, democracy or American interests. Vietnam presented no threat to the US homeland or regionally to US interests.

The soldiers went there to do their duty as they had been trained to do. Unfortunately they were used as pawns in a idiotic childish us against them pissing war that the US never should have been involved in.
And what some anti-war pansy Iike you fails to recognize is that there are plenty of us war-mongerers who were IN the military during the Vietnam Era and after that know all about the liberal take on the "political war machine" and all about the extreme right wing "duck yeah, let's go kill us some commies...right or wrong" view and realize there's truth to both sides, that it's not all black and white. There are many hues of grey in the picture.

That doesn't diminish the efforts of the ones who fought and died nor the actions of those who fought and were captured or went missing. While I have no doubt that many of the men I served with joined up looking for action or a paycheck or a route to college or maybe to kill somebody, most of them joined out of a sense of loyalty to our country and a desire to show gratitude through service.

None of that makes us racist. None of that, nor the reasons given in the article, makes that flag "racist".


When Americans fight it is warmongering. When anyone else fights against us it is heroic. He talks big for someone who has spent his whole life hiding under the U S Nuclear umbrella.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 9:50:36 PM   
Dominear


Posts: 1
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Oops

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 10:21:43 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
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quote:

Not only is his original article insulting but so is his "apology".


Aside from the word "racist" what exactly did you find insulting?


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 10:25:24 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez


quote:

Not only is his original article insulting but so is his "apology".


Aside from the word "racist" what exactly did you find insulting?



His assumptions on the character and stupidity of anyone supporting this program. News flash the VC and North Vietnamese were the bad guys, not us.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Thegunnysez)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 10:27:02 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
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quote:

And what some anti-war pansy Iike you fails to recognize is that there are plenty of us war-mongerers who were IN the military during the Vietnam Era and after...


I am unclear why being "anti war" makes one a pansy.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 10:29:06 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

And what some anti-war pansy Iike you fails to recognize is that there are plenty of us war-mongerers who were IN the military during the Vietnam Era and after...


I am unclear why being "anti war" makes one a pansy.

Who are you really, your "profile" has all the earmarks of a sock.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Thegunnysez)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Rick Perlstein Calls the POW-MIA Flag 'RACIST' - 8/17/2015 10:32:28 PM   
Thegunnysez


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/17/2015
Status: offline
quote:

His assumptions on the character and stupidity of anyone supporting this program. News flash the VC and North Vietnamese were the bad guys, not us


Didn't the U.S. attack them without provocation and without a declaration of war? How would that make the U.S. a "good guy"?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 20
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