Cost of Illegal Immigration (Full Version)

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KenDckey -> Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 4:53:36 AM)

I did some browsing for the cost of illegal immigration. ABC, Fox, US News etc all reported that it would cost taxpayers billions to continue to support illegals. They couldn't agree how much. For the most part, they also indicated that they sent to other countries billions for use for their families or whatever.

They generally agreed that local and states had a cost burden above the federal burden including medical care, education, etc.

I wonder why so many want to keep these people who apparently have no interest in following our laws (or they would have immigrated legally which I support).




Kirata -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 5:01:02 AM)


We cannot tolerate illegal immigration and we must stop it. For years before Bill Clinton became President, Washington talked tough but failed to act. In 1992, our borders might as well not have existed. The border was under-patrolled, and what patrols there were, were under-equipped. Drugs flowed freely. Illegal immigration was rampant. Criminal immigrants, deported after committing crimes in America, returned the very next day to commit crimes again. ~Source

Fucking racists. [:D]

K.




cloudboy -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 7:41:32 AM)

You know you have like 26 threads on the last three (3) pages. Why not give it a rest and stop peddling ignorance with such high volume enthusiasm.




CreativeDominant -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 8:19:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

You know you have like 26 threads on the last three (3) pages. Why not give it a rest and stop peddling ignorance with such high volume enthusiasm.

YOU consider the Democratic Part platform...and it's touting of Bill...to be ignorance?





KenDckey -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 8:24:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

You know you have like 26 threads on the last three (3) pages. Why not give it a rest and stop peddling ignorance with such high volume enthusiasm.

BOY If Obama followed the law and the law breakers followed the law and came legally we wouldn't have those drated threads about them.




bounty44 -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 8:24:18 AM)

given that ken is so relatively benign, I cannot help but think comrade head in the clouds taking such offense at him must have to do with incredibly low self esteem.




KenDckey -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 8:27:07 AM)

LOL Bounty be nice now LOL




tj444 -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 8:27:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I did some browsing for the cost of illegal immigration. ABC, Fox, US News etc all reported that it would cost taxpayers billions to continue to support illegals. They couldn't agree how much. For the most part, they also indicated that they sent to other countries billions for use for their families or whatever.

They generally agreed that local and states had a cost burden above the federal burden including medical care, education, etc.

I wonder why so many want to keep these people who apparently have no interest in following our laws (or they would have immigrated legally which I support).


I just love (not) how some of y'all say you support legal immigration but you have no clue that to do that under todays rules makes legal immigration for most of them about as possible as winning a (green card) lottery..

so lets say Trump (or some moron like him) wins and becomes Prez and puts his immigration plan in place- according to the American Action Forum & other organizations, it would cost taxpayers between $400 billion to 600 billion (and 20 years) to deport 11.2 million undocumented immigrants, it would cost $20 to 30 billion to build the wall on the southern border (when ya gonna build a wall on the northern border???), removing 11.2 million immigrants would reduce the GDP by 6% and real GDP would decline by $1.6 trillion.. you would have a shortage of workers to take care of granny (at an affordable cost) so watch medicare/health care costs increase dramatically, your food costs would increase due to having to pay Americans more than they are worth to pick lettuce and all your food and so on..

so yeah, go ahead and elect Trump/put his plan to work (I dare y'all).. When you do that I will be shorting the US dollar and certain US stocks, etc.. [;)]

oh, and watch even more of your American corps open plants/businesses in Mexico (the new China) & other countries..




KenDckey -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 8:33:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I did some browsing for the cost of illegal immigration. ABC, Fox, US News etc all reported that it would cost taxpayers billions to continue to support illegals. They couldn't agree how much. For the most part, they also indicated that they sent to other countries billions for use for their families or whatever.

They generally agreed that local and states had a cost burden above the federal burden including medical care, education, etc.

I wonder why so many want to keep these people who apparently have no interest in following our laws (or they would have immigrated legally which I support).


I just love (not) how some of y'all say you support legal immigration but you have no clue that to do that under todays rules makes legal immigration for most of them about as possible as winning a (green card) lottery..

so lets say Trump (or some moron like him) wins and becomes Prez and puts his immigration plan in place- according to the American Action Forum & other organizations, it would cost taxpayers between $400 billion to 600 billion (and 20 years) to deport 11.2 million undocumented immigrants, it would cost $20 to 30 billion to build the wall on the southern border (when ya gonna build a wall on the northern border???), removing 11.2 million immigrants would reduce the GDP by 6% and real GDP would decline by $1.6 trillion.. you would have a shortage of workers to take care of granny (at an affordable cost) so watch medicare/health care costs increase dramatically, your food costs would increase due to having to pay Americans more than they are worth to pick lettuce and all your food and so on..

so yeah, go ahead and elect Trump/put his plan to work (I dare y'all).. When you do that I will be shorting the US dollar and certain US stocks, etc.. [;)]

oh, and watch even more of your American corps open plants/businesses in Mexico (the new China) & other countries..

Some sources go as low as $3+ billion per year to keep the (3x20 years is $21B) so it is cheaper
Some sources go as high as this

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/05/the-fiscal-cost-of-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-to-the-us-taxpayer




tj444 -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 8:52:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Some sources go as low as $3+ billion per year to keep the (3x20 years is $21B) so it is cheaper
Some sources go as high as this

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/05/the-fiscal-cost-of-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-to-the-us-taxpayer



LOL.. oh come on.. let's talk reality here.. when the govt does anything, how often do costs actually come in cheaper??? when it comes to govt, take the highest estimate and double or triple it! you still are probably underestimating it..

Want an example of that? take the Iraq war..

"The most recent major report on these costs come from Brown University in the form of the Costs of War, which totaled just over $1.1 trillion. The Department of Defense's direct spending on Iraq totaled at least $757.8 billion, but also highlighting the complementary costs at home, such as interest paid on the funds borrowed to finance the wars.

Those figures are dramatically higher than typical estimates published just prior to the start of the Iraq War, many of which were based on a shorter term of involvement. For example, in a March 16, 2003 Meet the Press interview of Vice President Dick Cheney, held less than a week before the Iraq War began, host Tim Russert reported that "every analysis said this war itself would cost about $80 billion, recovery of Baghdad, perhaps of Iraq, about $10 billion per year. We should expect as American citizens that this would cost at least $100 billion for a two-year involvement.""


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War




KenDckey -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 8:57:43 AM)

TJ I think you are being conservative but yeah




BamaD -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 9:49:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

given that ken is so relatively benign, I cannot help but think comrade head in the clouds taking such offense at him must have to do with incredibly low self esteem.

CB claims to be an immigration lawyer, conflict of interest.




joether -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 11:50:44 AM)

The pew has some information on this subject

While people claim illegal immigrants generate costs; what do they generate in revenue?

That number is much hard to determine. Since it involves looking into 'the books' of every company in the nation who either has come forward or currently and secretly using illegal immigrants. It is not likely we'll ever see such a document come from the right wing unless it shows 'yes indeed, it costs more than we gain'. The left is not likely to show such studies unless the information is verifiable and solid. So we are left with a question without a good answer. Since that answer would indeed help determine part of the problem at present with regards to immigration and labor laws.

If it was bad for business, to employ an illegal immigrant; why is this a 'normal' business practice? Because the profit out weighs the damage for breaking the law. That would require some strong legal code and penalties to crate the situation to which a company could be financially destroyed for just hiring one illegal immigrant. Something most companies whom contribute money to the GOP, would oppose (and subsequently without their donations). So it places conservatives in an unusual circumstance of demanding government do something; but at the same time, not so much because they need those donations from business or risk losing Congress. What can you say?

FEAR is this biggest motivation to a conservation. If you can program into a conservative's mind that something dire will happen without your product or service; you'll be a multi-millionaire in no time! Why do you think firearms sell so well when a Democrat suggests gun control after a shooting massacre?




joether -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 12:02:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Some sources go as low as $3+ billion per year to keep the (3x20 years is $21B) so it is cheaper
Some sources go as high as this

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/05/the-fiscal-cost-of-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-to-the-us-taxpayer

LOL.. oh come on.. let's talk reality here.. when the govt does anything, how often do costs actually come in cheaper??? when it comes to govt, take the highest estimate and double or triple it! you still are probably underestimating it..


Good 'old knee jerk reaction there...

As odd as it might sound, government does a decent job at controlling costs. Yes there are oddities in the budget from time to time that raise eyebrows. If you want to see government being cheap, check out healthcare to US Citizens. Particularly in the VA system....

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
Want an example of that? take the Iraq war..

"The most recent major report on these costs come from Brown University in the form of the Costs of War, which totaled just over $1.1 trillion. The Department of Defense's direct spending on Iraq totaled at least $757.8 billion, but also highlighting the complementary costs at home, such as interest paid on the funds borrowed to finance the wars.

Those figures are dramatically higher than typical estimates published just prior to the start of the Iraq War, many of which were based on a shorter term of involvement. For example, in a March 16, 2003 Meet the Press interview of Vice President Dick Cheney, held less than a week before the Iraq War began, host Tim Russert reported that "every analysis said this war itself would cost about $80 billion, recovery of Baghdad, perhaps of Iraq, about $10 billion per year. We should expect as American citizens that this would cost at least $100 billion for a two-year involvement.""


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War


When you calculate in the long term problems from that war. That would be militiary actions the United States has to make for the next twenty to thirty years, plus caring for all the wounded soldiers; that number is closer to $4 trillion.

....Of borrowed money.....

That's right the whole war was financed with borrowed money rather than tax payer dollars. All that money went straight into the national Debt. The $1.1 Trillion as you stated, and the other three trillion 'over the long haul'.

Ironically enough the G. W. Bush administration was 'hired' thanks to a sizable number of 'fiscal conservatives'. These same 'fiscal conservatives' looked the other way during the Republican process of 'Starve the Beast'. The amount of money the GOP/TP have cost this nation in the last twenty years, *EASILY* dwarfs all the costs with illegal immigration for the next fifty years.....

So if conservatives are so bitchy about the financial cost of illegal immigrants; perhaps they should look at the people they support and vote into public office. Those folks are costing them much more!




KenDckey -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 12:38:57 PM)

Joe

I do believe you are anti-military anything including healthcare for wounds and injuries received the same as you would get under OSHA coverage.

The reason for the variance that I reported probably is the lack of concrete information available so some assumptions had to be made.

And no President was hired. They were elected (I draw your attention to the constitution).




joether -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 1:13:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I do believe you are anti-military anything including healthcare for wounds and injuries received the same as you would get under OSHA coverage.


An your belief is using....what....as a source to be drawn from?

I'm not anti-military. I love my armed forces! Seeing soldiers and sailors is a very comfortable image. Have no problem with them in society. In fact I work with some in volunteer activities. Yesterday I was curious of the military's new 'light tactical vehicle' from a company I have not heard from in a while. Its to replace the HUMVEE fleet. To say I could, talk and talk about things related to the US Military would be an understatement. Or just military theory. Or stuff related to military (Warhammer 40K, Planetside 2, America's Army (the FPS)). Or personal history related to the military. But it would be...way...off topic.

On topic...

I feel its our responsibility as a society to treat and restore (however possible) those whom fight in our wars. That we should not create a 'sub class' of citizens whom medical doctors 'practice on' before moving into the private sector. There is an interesting movie about this: Article 99.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
The reason for the variance that I reported probably is the lack of concrete information available so some assumptions had to be made.


Without knowledge and understanding, there can only be ignorance and hatred.

Lack of good information is not an excuse to base a decision upon. If you don't have good information...GET...good information! The difference between 'alittle more study' and 'going without' can be tremendous. I think you have seen when some of the 'less informed' residences have gotten schooled by those that have studied the concept, right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
And no President was hired. They were elected (I draw your attention to the constitution).


Hired: verb (used with object), hired, hiring.
1. to engage the services of (a person or persons) for wages or other payment: to hire a clerk.

We do pay the US President. We do give perks to the person in the White House. Even after they leave the White House, we keep Secret Service protection on them (how much do you think that costs?).

Then there is the thesaurus:

Appoint: Electing someone to a position is basically the same as 'appointing them' to the position.

Employ: We do employ the US Presidents to their job functions.

Pick: Yes, the US President is picked from several candidates.

Select: We did select someone to be a US President from a field of possibilities.

So 'yes', we 'hired' Mr. Obama to be President of the United States of America. Just because you didn't vote for him, does not mean he was not hired (or appointed, employed, picked, selected). He was even elected to the position.





KenDckey -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 1:39:37 PM)

Joe. It is not hatred of illegals coming to this country. it is an intense dislike. I don't appreciate them coming to this country outside legal channels. I don't appreciate them being authorized to stay because of whatever reason. either we should open our borders and change the laws accordingly, or lock them up in internment facilities and ship them home.




Kirata -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 1:53:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I did some browsing for the cost of illegal immigration. ABC, Fox, US News etc all reported that it would cost taxpayers billions to continue to support illegals. They couldn't agree how much...

Welfare Use by Immigrant Households with Children (20 pages, 23 references)

Interestingly, American attitudes on immigration are remarkably consistent despite the manufactured political polarization.

Many studies have examined Americans' immigration attitudes. Yet prior research frequently confounds multiple questions, including which immigrants to admit and how many to admit. To isolate attitudes on the former question, we use a conjoint experiment that simultaneously tests the influence of nine immigrant attributes in generating support for admission. Drawing on a two-wave, population-based survey, we demonstrate that Americans view educated immigrants in high-status jobs favorably, whereas they view those who lack plans to work, entered without authorization, are Iraqi, or do not speak English unfavorably. Strikingly, Americans' preferences vary little with their own education, partisanship, labor market position, ethnocentrism, or other attributes. Beneath partisan divisions over immigration lies a broad consensus about who should be admitted to the country. The results are consistent with norms-based and sociotropic explanations of immigration attitudes. This consensus points to limits in both theories emphasizing economic and cultural threats, and sheds new light on an ongoing policy debate. ~Am. J. Pol. Sci.

K.




joether -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 1:57:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Joe. It is not hatred of illegals coming to this country. it is an intense dislike. I don't appreciate them coming to this country outside legal channels. I don't appreciate them being authorized to stay because of whatever reason. either we should open our borders and change the laws accordingly, or lock them up in internment facilities and ship them home.


Why are they coming here? Why would someone flee their location, risk hundreds of miles of uncertainty, just to go here?

We do not want to look at dealing with those nations, nor their economic, social, or cultural problems more proactively. We once spent many billions in foreign aid to 'encourage' people to stay in their countries. People like you, demanded we reduce these bills. An they were reduced. Now you get to 'experience' one of the consequences of your demands in government first hand.

You want things both ways: no foreign aid, and no immigration. Apparently that doesn't work to well.

I liked the Kennedy/McCain immigration bill from 2007. Perhaps you should sit down and read it cover to cover. It lays things out for how we handle both future 'visitors' to the nation, and those already inside.

Placing them in internment camps will not work. It would be to easily challenged in the courts. Regardless of how 'humanitarian' the GOP/TP tries to paint it. We all know about how 'humanitarian' Guantanamo Bay was for those suspected of wrong doing. How often conservative media tried to paint the concept of 'water boarding' as not torture; and challenged time and again by others to be water boarded (not a single conservative media personality had the balls to take up).

We try to 'round up' 11-14 million suspected illegal immigrants; and the unrest in this nation will make the 1960's look mild in comparison! Your political party will get 'shit canned' out of Congress. And stay that way for a full decade! Is that what you want?




tj444 -> RE: Cost of Illegal Immigration (8/28/2015 2:01:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Some sources go as low as $3+ billion per year to keep the (3x20 years is $21B) so it is cheaper
Some sources go as high as this

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/05/the-fiscal-cost-of-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-to-the-us-taxpayer

LOL.. oh come on.. let's talk reality here.. when the govt does anything, how often do costs actually come in cheaper??? when it comes to govt, take the highest estimate and double or triple it! you still are probably underestimating it..


Good 'old knee jerk reaction there...

As odd as it might sound, government does a decent job at controlling costs. Yes there are oddities in the budget from time to time that raise eyebrows. If you want to see government being cheap, check out healthcare to US Citizens. Particularly in the VA system....

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
Want an example of that? take the Iraq war..

"The most recent major report on these costs come from Brown University in the form of the Costs of War, which totaled just over $1.1 trillion. The Department of Defense's direct spending on Iraq totaled at least $757.8 billion, but also highlighting the complementary costs at home, such as interest paid on the funds borrowed to finance the wars.

Those figures are dramatically higher than typical estimates published just prior to the start of the Iraq War, many of which were based on a shorter term of involvement. For example, in a March 16, 2003 Meet the Press interview of Vice President Dick Cheney, held less than a week before the Iraq War began, host Tim Russert reported that "every analysis said this war itself would cost about $80 billion, recovery of Baghdad, perhaps of Iraq, about $10 billion per year. We should expect as American citizens that this would cost at least $100 billion for a two-year involvement.""


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War


When you calculate in the long term problems from that war. That would be militiary actions the United States has to make for the next twenty to thirty years, plus caring for all the wounded soldiers; that number is closer to $4 trillion.

....Of borrowed money.....

That's right the whole war was financed with borrowed money rather than tax payer dollars. All that money went straight into the national Debt. The $1.1 Trillion as you stated, and the other three trillion 'over the long haul'.

Ironically enough the G. W. Bush administration was 'hired' thanks to a sizable number of 'fiscal conservatives'. These same 'fiscal conservatives' looked the other way during the Republican process of 'Starve the Beast'. The amount of money the GOP/TP have cost this nation in the last twenty years, *EASILY* dwarfs all the costs with illegal immigration for the next fifty years.....

So if conservatives are so bitchy about the financial cost of illegal immigrants; perhaps they should look at the people they support and vote into public office. Those folks are costing them much more!

Dude, the govt may be able to control costs on very short term minor items but when it comes to long term projects (like the Iraq war) and building 2000 mile walls and deporting 11.2 million people over 20 years, you have to be very naive to think the budget wont get blowed up real good... [8|]

eta- y'all seem to be ignoring the reduction in "the GDP by 6% and real GDP would decline by $1.6 trillion" if/when the 11.2 million people are deported.. I guess y'all consider that chicken feed or something..




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