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Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/7/2015 1:45:31 PM   
Hillwilliam


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I see people crowing and lamenting about who is leading and not leading presidential polls.
Seriously folks. Does no one have a memory?
8 years ago, Hillary was so far ahead because of the country's perceived notion that Dubya had made a hash of the economy that the RNC didn't even bother to campaign hard with a viable candidate. They conceded to her a year before the election. What happened?
This unknown freshman senator from that hotbed of honest politics, Chicago, came out of nowhere and took the nomination. The RNC was caught with no message, no viable candidate, no campaign and no win. They lost a heck of an opportunity.

4 years later, they believed the polls again and thought they would have a cakewalk so they decided they could ram a Christian agenda down everyone's throat.
Same result, they got their asses kicked.

Maybe folks, especially those at the RNC, need to just ignore the damn polls for now at least.

Lately, leading in the polls early has been kind of a kiss of death.

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/7/2015 3:36:40 PM   
thompsonx


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Pearhaps they are just the mechanism that each party uses to pimp their own position. I am always impressed with the number of resturants in las vegas who have been voted #1. Close inspection with a 1000x glass reveals the donor of the award to be none other than the proprioters wife.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/7/2015 4:07:32 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I see people crowing and lamenting about who is leading and not leading presidential polls.
Seriously folks. Does no one have a memory?
8 years ago, Hillary was so far ahead because of the country's perceived notion that Dubya had made a hash of the economy that the RNC didn't even bother to campaign hard with a viable candidate. They conceded to her a year before the election. What happened?
This unknown freshman senator from that hotbed of honest politics, Chicago, came out of nowhere and took the nomination. The RNC was caught with no message, no viable candidate, no campaign and no win. They lost a heck of an opportunity.
4 years later, they believed the polls again and thought they would have a cakewalk so they decided they could ram a Christian agenda down everyone's throat.
Same result, they got their asses kicked.
Maybe folks, especially those at the RNC, need to just ignore the damn polls for now at least.
Lately, leading in the polls early has been kind of a kiss of death.


To answer your question, yes. We've also seen "exit polls" being dead wrong compared to the results of the election, too.

We're still months away from the real start of the Presidential race (the primaries).

I do think if Biden is going to jump in, he'd better do it soon, else he'll be too far behind to make a difference. He may already be too far behind.


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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/7/2015 5:35:45 PM   
thompsonx


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How far behind was obama when he first decided to get into the parade?

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/7/2015 10:55:15 PM   
joether


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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I see people crowing and lamenting about who is leading and not leading presidential polls.
Seriously folks. Does no one have a memory?
8 years ago, Hillary was so far ahead because of the country's perceived notion that Dubya had made a hash of the economy that the RNC didn't even bother to campaign hard with a viable candidate. They conceded to her a year before the election. What happened?
This unknown freshman senator from that hotbed of honest politics, Chicago, came out of nowhere and took the nomination. The RNC was caught with no message, no viable candidate, no campaign and no win. They lost a heck of an opportunity.

4 years later, they believed the polls again and thought they would have a cakewalk so they decided they could ram a Christian agenda down everyone's throat.
Same result, they got their asses kicked.

Maybe folks, especially those at the RNC, need to just ignore the damn polls for now at least.

Lately, leading in the polls early has been kind of a kiss of death.


Actually, if you look just four years earlier of the 2004 election, that young Senator actually held a speech:

"Its not Red America, its not Blue America, its the United States of America!" You can look it up on youtube. When people heard this guy speak they asked the logical question: Who is the guy making so much sense? Over time, he became better known.

The RNC in 2008 ran Sen. McCain. They did not 'throw in the towel'. The towel got thrown in when Mr. McCain took 'Mrs. Intelligent' on as the VP. She got destroyed when asked 'Can you define the Bush Doctrine?'. That basically undermined Mr. McCain's chances in the long run. The VP choice is a very serious decision.

They ran what they thought was a good candidate in 2012, Mr. Romney. His mistake was making bad speeches that sounded semi-liberal and conservative. But not enough of either to generate votes from either side of the spectrum. Mr. Romney did not do himself in. The conservative media, whom stated he would win in a landslide, failed Mr. Romney. Do you see conservatives blaming the hand that feeds them information?

In the current election, the RNC's problem is 'Lack of a Real Platform'. They have ideas, but nothing that is solid. They hate the ACA, but, do not have a better alternative. Since a better alternative would be a more liberal package than the ACA. They can't talk about race relations given all their bad speeches that infuriated minority groups. The economy went from a near-depression in 2008 to running well in a bull market. So Republicans can not bash a good economy. Foreign Policy is a tough issue, regardless of WHOM is in office. Yet the RNC is pushing 'War with Iran'; like any of them might be put on the front lines, right? They really do not have a plan for dealing with infrastructure, immigration, education, campaign financing, or any of the middle tier items that sometimes comes up.

But the RNC does not have to worry about having substance. The people most likely to vote for their candidate are part of the 'Low Information Voters'. The people that have no clue about anything, except what they are told to think. They're the kind of people that would replace the US Constitution with a violently evil tyrant, if it saved them $0.02 on their taxes.

On taxes, they want to lower them. Because its well know in mathematics that if you have less revenue coming in, you pay down the national debt faster, right? (shakes head)


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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/7/2015 11:09:23 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The people most likely to vote for their candidate are part of the 'Low Information Voters'. The people that have no clue about anything, except what they are told to think. They're the kind of people that would replace the US Constitution with a violently evil tyrant, if it saved them $0.02 on their taxes.

I think you better start saving your money, joether. The way things are going, you're going to need to double your medication before the year is out.

K.


(in reply to joether)
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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/7/2015 11:45:20 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The people most likely to vote for their candidate are part of the 'Low Information Voters'. The people that have no clue about anything, except what they are told to think. They're the kind of people that would replace the US Constitution with a violently evil tyrant, if it saved them $0.02 on their taxes.

I think you better start saving your money, joether. The way things are going, you're going to need to double your medication before the year is out.


It must burn you to no end, that I can state the facts with the evidence and you do not have a single, good counter argument.....

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/7/2015 11:49:21 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The people most likely to vote for their candidate are part of the 'Low Information Voters'. The people that have no clue about anything, except what they are told to think. They're the kind of people that would replace the US Constitution with a violently evil tyrant, if it saved them $0.02 on their taxes.

I think you better start saving your money, joether. The way things are going, you're going to need to double your medication before the year is out.

It must burn you to no end, that I can state the facts with the evidence and you do not have a single, good counter argument.....

Yeah. Well okay then, maybe sooner.

K.

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/7/2015 11:52:38 PM   
joether


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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The people most likely to vote for their candidate are part of the 'Low Information Voters'. The people that have no clue about anything, except what they are told to think. They're the kind of people that would replace the US Constitution with a violently evil tyrant, if it saved them $0.02 on their taxes.

I think you better start saving your money, joether. The way things are going, you're going to need to double your medication before the year is out.

It must burn you to no end, that I can state the facts with the evidence and you do not have a single, good counter argument.....

Yeah. Well okay then, maybe sooner.


Likewise, your unable to EVER stay on topic....

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 12:00:32 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The people most likely to vote for their candidate are part of the 'Low Information Voters'. The people that have no clue about anything, except what they are told to think. They're the kind of people that would replace the US Constitution with a violently evil tyrant, if it saved them $0.02 on their taxes.

I think you better start saving your money, joether. The way things are going, you're going to need to double your medication before the year is out.

It must burn you to no end, that I can state the facts with the evidence and you do not have a single, good counter argument.....

Yeah. Well okay then, maybe sooner.

Likewise, your unable to EVER stay on topic....

Yeah, EVER. Check. Okay, much sooner.

K.


(in reply to joether)
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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 5:45:35 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I see people crowing and lamenting about who is leading and not leading presidential polls.
Seriously folks. Does no one have a memory?
8 years ago, Hillary was so far ahead because of the country's perceived notion that Dubya had made a hash of the economy that the RNC didn't even bother to campaign hard with a viable candidate. They conceded to her a year before the election. What happened?
This unknown freshman senator from that hotbed of honest politics, Chicago, came out of nowhere and took the nomination. The RNC was caught with no message, no viable candidate, no campaign and no win. They lost a heck of an opportunity.

4 years later, they believed the polls again and thought they would have a cakewalk so they decided they could ram a Christian agenda down everyone's throat.
Same result, they got their asses kicked.

Maybe folks, especially those at the RNC, need to just ignore the damn polls for now at least.

Lately, leading in the polls early has been kind of a kiss of death.



I think it's way too early for election season anyway. The general election is 14 months away. A lot can happen between now and then.

"Only 427 shopping days until Election 2016!"

Rick Perry seems like he's dropping out of the race before it even starts. He's at 1% among GOP candidates, according to polls, and his campaign is reportedly out of money. He shot his wad too early; the political equivalent of premature ejaculation. Not that I'm shedding any tears over it, but still, all this early campaigning can get a bit ridiculous.

In Arizona, we don't have a primary anymore. Now, they call it a "Presidential Preference Election," and that'll be on March 22. They've tried to fudge with the primary dates in the past. Quite a number of years ago, they wanted to move Arizona's primary up so that it would be first before New Hampshire, but New Hampshire made a big stink over it thinking that they deserve to have the first primary. But that didn't seem fair to other states, since many candidates would drop out of the race if they had a poor showing in New Hampshire, leaving other states without even the option to vote for them.

I think they should have it so all states have their primaries on the same day, about two months before the general election. It would also be nice if politicians would refrain from announcing their candidacy no more than six months prior to the general election.


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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 8:25:46 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

I think they should have it so all states have their primaries on the same day, about two months before the general election. It would also be nice if politicians would refrain from announcing their candidacy no more than six months prior to the general election.


I think that the ballot should include the option of "none of the above". If "none of the above" gets more votes than anyone else then the office stays vacant until someone beats "none of the above"

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 10:09:16 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

I think they should have it so all states have their primaries on the same day, about two months before the general election. It would also be nice if politicians would refrain from announcing their candidacy no more than six months prior to the general election.


I think that the ballot should include the option of "none of the above". If "none of the above" gets more votes than anyone else then the office stays vacant until someone beats "none of the above"

Now that would be a very interesting power vacuum. Nice thought but a bit impractical.

Besides, with today's polarization of the parties, it could last 6 mos....maybe even a year. Who would be VP is another question or settle the question of whether we really even need one.

We could always pick another pres. if there was none at all for a time. Maybe we should have a new one every year.

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 10:23:55 AM   
BamaD


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I think they should have it so all states have their primaries on the same day, about two months before the general election. It would also be nice if politicians would refrain from announcing their candidacy no more than six months prior to the general election.



Sounds good.
The problem is that unless you have a second round of primaries, maybe even a third or fourth, you will get someone that represents a small but dedicated group of voters. 1984 is a good example, Jessi Jackson had about 25-30% of the vote with five or six candidates, looked pretty good. But when it came down to two he had 24-30% of the vote, a pitiful showing.
We need to have a means of wittling the feild down to get the "best" candidate.
I would suggest 4 regional primaries, rotating the order so the same part of the country doesn't get only the wittled down field.
I would also suggest that the polls should open nation wide a midnight Eastern Time and stay open for 24 hours, thus we don't have presidential winners declared at 8 eastern time with hours left to vote in Hawaii. See 1980 when Carter conseded about that time.

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 11:26:52 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Now that would be a very interesting power vacuum. Nice thought but a bit impractical.

Besides, with today's polarization of the parties, it could last 6 mos....maybe even a year.



I would diagree. If the players know that "none of the above" is an option they have no choice but to put foreward viable candidates...besides the day to day shit is run by bureaucrats. As for who has access to the red button???as if it was even necessary. Who the fuck is going to attack us that needs the red button level of response?



quote:

Who would be VP is another question or settle the question of whether we really even need one.

We could always pick another pres. if there was none at all for a time. Maybe we should have a new one every year.


Not just the president!!! all elections.

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 11:36:31 AM   
thompsonx


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Typically about a third of u.s. voters actually vote. The ones who vote tend to be the ones who vote regularly. If we take these two thoughts and add the "none of the above " option at the booth. (lots of pretrial publicity) I think it most likely that the two major candidates would get about the vote count that would have happened if the option were not there. I think the voter turnout would approach 80%. The ones who would be voting for the option would seem to be the ones who feel that voting for this bum or that bum is less important than watching the reruns of "the howdy doody show".

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/8/2015 11:37:03 AM >

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 3:48:26 PM   
MercTech


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Polls are only as good as the statistical universe they are based on. Most polls shown by news entertainers are cherry picked to demonstrate the preferences of the news organization.

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 4:44:54 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
[b(A) think they should have it so all states have their primaries on the same day, (B)about two months before the general election. (C)It would also be nice if politicians would refrain from announcing their candidacy no more than six months prior to the general election.


I disagree. On each point.

(A): What if states want the same individual at their primary verse another state? That implies the richer state gets the person. Is that fair for the poor states? Three states would like President Obama at their DNC primary; which one gets the President's attention? Why should the other two suffer? What your arguing creates alot of unneeded resentment between the states. The country already had a wide and deep enough of a political chasm without encouraging it!

Likewise it would be a security nightmare for law enforcement and intelligence agencies. That is 100 primaries to cover, assuming each state....ONLY....has the Republican and Democrat running for office. Most states average about four or five political parties. So now we are up to 250+ security details of varing sizes, in either the same or different areas of each state.

By breaking it up into a number of days/weeks, allows the limited resources to focus into specific areas of the nation.

(B): Two months is not enough time to property analyze a person for the White House. Most of us have day jobs. What little time we have to study and make an informed decision is scrapped from several days of free time. Besides, gives more time for a candidate to screw up and make it entertaining.

Yes, I know most Americans are completely stupid when it comes to elections. This forum is a great example of that concept! But some of us would like more time to study each person beyond the sound bites and political buzz phrases.

(C): I'm fine if someone wishes to announce their ran beyond or under that six month window. There is no law stating one has to perform this practice. Frankly if there was, I'd be amazed it wasn't challenged as a violation of the 1st amendment!

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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 4:53:01 PM   
joether


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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Typically about a third of u.s. voters actually vote. The ones who vote tend to be the ones who vote regularly. If we take these two thoughts and add the "none of the above " option at the booth. (lots of pretrial publicity) I think it most likely that the two major candidates would get about the vote count that would have happened if the option were not there. I think the voter turnout would approach 80%. The ones who would be voting for the option would seem to be the ones who feel that voting for this bum or that bum is less important than watching the reruns of "the howdy doody show".


" In late 1999 in California, citizen proponents of Proposition 23, titled the "None of the Above Act", qualified a new State ballot initiative through circulated petitions submitted to the Secretary of State. A total of $987,000 was expended in promotion of the ballot option, which was defeated in the March 2000 general election 64% to 36%. If passed by the voters, it would have required this new ballot option for all state and federal elective offices, exempting only local judicial races; in determining official election results, the "none of the above" voter tally would be discarded in favor of the candidate with the greatest number of votes."

[COLOR=#0000FF]SOURCE


Seems the voters of Nevada (which is a purple state) were not in favor of such a measure. It sounds nice of an idea, but there exists not enough evidence to support the idea. Nor in drawing a greater percentage of people to the ballot box.



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RE: Are we reading too much into polls? - 9/8/2015 5:00:10 PM   
joether


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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Polls are only as good as the statistical universe they are based on. Most polls shown by news entertainers are cherry picked to demonstrate the preferences of the news organization.


Actually, people thought to create a polling location (to each state) that would be a legitimate, no-partisan organization that conducts polling. This resource could be used at the local, county, state, and federal level to obtain information directly from voters as how they see/feel/understand government. Usually due to technological logistics being the biggest barrier), this concept has not gotten out of Congressional sub committees over the years.

Funding was the next problem that could not be overcome to easily. Followed by the 'annoynce factor'. The 'annoyance factor' are people whom believe government should know what they want without having to ask them in the first place. I guess all these people think the government has developed telepaths....

The first issue is not to big a problem thanks to the internet and other technological advancements. The second can be a problem as there is the 'initial set up and processing state'. Followed by; how many US Citizens would actually use this government system to provide good information and feedback?


(in reply to MercTech)
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