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USPS - 9/29/2015 2:23:21 AM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/fixgov/posts/2015/09/22-united-states-postal-service-hudak?utm_source=FB&utm_medium=BPIAds&utm_campaign=USPS&utm_term=NoNoCtyUS-18^65-General%20TanksNoCAnoBHV&utm_content=75402618

Should we eliminate or break up the USPS? My thoughts

- I do believe that government over regulation is hindering the process of mail delivery.
- I do believe that it provides a valuable service
- I do believe that there might be advantages of its total elimination because we wouldn't see as much junk mail
- Snail mail would lessen due to the cost of going through other organizations.
- Cost of delivery services may go up and continue to do so forever.

What is the answer - Allow the USPS do its job without all the overburdening regulation. An impossibility in our ever increasing socialistic society.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 3:28:47 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		the USPS perpetually operates in the red and since its services are more or less replicated, or can be replicated, by the private sector, that's as good of an argument as any to disband it.

although, getting rid of the usps union would be a good start too. although, im a little fuzzy on if the usps is wholly a "public sector" such that id be okay getting rid of the union.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 9/29/2015 3:30:42 AM >

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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 3:39:04 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		I think the USPS is suffering the same fate that all American services suffer from - privatisation and profit.

I noticed the article said: "...Yet, Kamarck notes, that the biggest roadblocks to solving to the underlying problems that plague USPS are the Postal Regulatory Commission and Congress who create bureaucratic, political and legal hurdles that make overhaul essentially impossible.".
The suggestion is to break it up into two privatised services; one mandated and the other free to run riot.
Personally, I think that is a recipe for disaster and profit-hiking like so many other American services - all driven by money and profits and corporate greed.

Isn't that the very same process that hinders any sort of reform in the US?
Forever kicking the can down the road until crunch time, then use a sticking plaster to patch something up just enough to kick it down the road again??
We see this action time and time again for just about anything and everything ever put on the table; military expenditure, healthcare, immigration policy, taxes, gun reform... etc etc.

The first thing you need to fix is the way politics runs. Stop the constant block-and-dodge tactics between those in the white house and congress. Make sure that problems are properly addressed and either shelved or enacted instead of being forever kicked down the road.


Aside from the politics, USPS is waay too slow.
Whenever I had stuff sent or received to/from the UK, it was 24 hours in the UK and 6-10 days in the US.
Stuff sent from the UK left our shores and was in the US well inside 24 hours, the rest of the time (usually more than a week) just getting from JFK to me in NC or FL. When I sent stuff the other way, it took more than a week to reach JFK and once it left US territory, got delivered in the UK within 24 hours.
IMHO, the first thing they need to fix is the level of service they offer. They need to drastically modernise and provide a competative service compared to the likes of Fedex/UPS/DHL etc.
After that, price themselves to undercut those private companies even if it means being subsidised.



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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 5:12:28 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Aside from the politics, USPS is waay too slow.
Whenever I had stuff sent or received to/from the UK, it was 24 hours in the UK and 6-10 days in the US.
Stuff sent from the UK left our shores and was in the US well inside 24 hours, the rest of the time (usually more than a week) just getting from JFK to me in NC or FL. When I sent stuff the other way, it took more than a week to reach JFK and once it left US territory, got delivered in the UK within 24 hours.
IMHO, the first thing they need to fix is the level of service they offer. They need to drastically modernise and provide a competative service compared to the likes of Fedex/UPS/DHL etc.
After that, price themselves to undercut those private companies even if it means being subsidised.




Of course it was only 24 hours in the UK. It is almost a no-brainer that stuff has to go air mail, once they hit the big pond.

The US is roughly 40 times the size of the UK (all four countries). There are 11 US states that are big enough to fit the UK (all four countries) inside them. There are 8 more that are ¾ the size of the UK (all four countries).

Once the letter/parcel is here, it is more cost-effective (though not time-effective) to send them over land. "Why?" one might ask? Air travel has always been grossly more expensive in this country. I have no idea why. It just is. Yep letters and packages could move around/across the US more quickly but it would cost a lot more than 46¢ for first class mail.



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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 5:29:36 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		I dont touch any of the UPS Fex EX puralator bullshit, the costs are high and cost the customer a lot more at the end of the day for customs fees.
The costs are less, and depending on the service, the USPS isnt as bad as people think, In 12 years IVe had more issues shipping with other companies into the US than I have USPS.shipping costs are out of control, no matter what system you use.
Privatising it, would be a huge stupid mistake.
As most privatisation schemes are.


Canada post is a pain in the arse, but I can get a corset into the wilds of the yukon faster than I can get one to new york

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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 5:35:08 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		The people running the post office have tried many times to reduce costs . They have tried to eliminate a day of delivery and have tried to close literally hundreds if not thousands of small post offices around the country. Congress has not allowed them to do so.

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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 7:44:56 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Canada post is a pain in the arse, but I can get a corset into the wilds of the yukon faster than I can get one to new york

This is the sort of thing I was trying to put across.

NC and FL aren't that far from JFK.
An overnight trunker could have delivered a bulk of post, overland, overnight.
So perhaps Daddysatyr could explain why it takes about 12-18 hours to get from my front door, get sorted, get onto a plane, and have it unloaded and sorted in the USA and ready to deliver, then take a further 6-10 days (and that's being generous as it often takes longer), to travel the final 420 miles (or 850-900 miles to Jax)??
That's an average of less than 40 miles a day (100 miles a day to Jax). That's the average speed of a touring cyclist for 10 hours or less. Can USPS justify that slow speed of delivery - even overland??
And what's more, the basic costs appears to be at least 5x what we pay over here and our post office profits dropped to £53m in 2013.

I once paid for a hard drive online from a local shop in Jax. After a week, I got my friend to take me the 10 miles to the shop and collect one in person. Apparently, that is not as unusual as you might think.
Over here, most post (first or second class) arrives the next day even if it is posted late afternoon in John O'Groates or Land's End.

This is the reason people spend $$'s on services like Fedex et al because USPS is sooo s-l-o-w.


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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 7:50:46 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		that pesky constitution


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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 7:56:48 AM   
hot4bondage


Posts: 403
Joined: 7/29/2009
Status: offline 		I'm usually against the government competing with the private sector, but the post office wasn't created to make a profit. It's supposed to help spread information and make the states more united. That's why "media mail" is cheaper.

From the USPS:

"Media Mail® service is a cost efficient way to mail books, sound recordings, recorded video tapes, printed music, and recorded computer-readable media (such as CDs, DVDs, and diskettes). Media Mail can not contain advertising except for incidental announcements of books. The maximum weight for Media Mail is 70 lbs."

Another argument for snail mail is that it is far less likely to be opened, copied, and stored by the government than unencrypted electronic communications. ...Just the content, though. Courts have ruled that the outside of the envelope is public.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130703/12551523709/old-school-metadata-still-being-harvested-usps-turned-over-to-law-enforcementsecurity-agencies-request.shtml

You may have noticed that I've only made an argument for USPS media mail and first-class mail. I'm not convinced that shipping a toaster oven has the same level of national importance.

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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 8:13:03 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		i don't necessarily expect the post office to create a profit---but when it runs perpetually in the red to the tunes of millions into billions of dollars, we'd all do well to consider a change.

i definitely see this as something congress could turn over to the private sector.



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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 1:30:29 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

the USPS perpetually operates in the red and since its services are more or less replicated, or can be replicated, by the private sector, that's as good of an argument as any to disband it.

although, getting rid of the usps union would be a good start too. although, im a little fuzzy on if the usps is wholly a "public sector" such that id be okay getting rid of the union.

actually it does make a profit (according to this report from 2011).. the problem is the govt takes a huge chunk..

"Operationally speaking, the USPS nets profits every year. The financial problem it faces now comes from a 2006 Congressional mandate that requires the agency to “pre-pay” into a fund that covers health care costs for future retired employees. Under the mandate, the USPS is required to make an annual $5.5 billion payment over ten years, through 2016. These “prepayments” are largely responsible for the USPS’s financial losses over the past four years and the threat of shutdown that looms ahead – take the retirement fund out of the equation, and the postal service would have actually netted $1 billion in profits over this period."

"The postal service doesn’t rely on taxpayer funds.
Until 1971, mail delivery was handled by the Post Office Department, a Cabinet department in the federal government. Postal worker strikes prompted President Nixon to pass the Postal Reorganization Act in 1971, transforming it into the semi-independent agency we now know as the United States Postal Service. The USPS in its current form runs like a business, relies on postage for revenue and, for the most part, has not used taxpayer money since 1982, when postage stamps became “products” instead of forms of taxation. Taxpayer money is only used in some cases to pay for mailing voter materials to disabled and overseas Americans."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/five-things/the-u-s-postal-service/11433/

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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 1:48:27 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I dont touch any of the UPS Fex EX puralator bullshit, the costs are high and cost the customer a lot more at the end of the day for customs fees.
The costs are less, and depending on the service, the USPS isnt as bad as people think, In 12 years IVe had more issues shipping with other companies into the US than I have USPS.shipping costs are out of control, no matter what system you use.
Privatising it, would be a huge stupid mistake.
As most privatisation schemes are.


Canada post is a pain in the arse, but I can get a corset into the wilds of the yukon faster than I can get one to new york

USPS used to get a letter across the US in 3 business days.. I used to get a local letter the next day.. I dont send much mail now (that will be changing) but I do know that it is taking a lot longer to get mail now..

I agree with you, I have had huge issues with UPS here.. My PO box accepts courier deliveries but one of the problems is that UPS (aka Opps) was using a different zip code than USPS uses so UPS would bounce my packages between Baytown and Houston (they were to be delivered to Houston).. One package UPS nicely "fixed" for me (my name and address were correct until that), they looked up in some stupid database they had and put someone elses name and PO Box on my package! so had I not gotten to the PO early that morning to get the clerk to search for it, someone else would have gotten my stuff! UPS is shitty, shitty, shitty.. they are no better in Canada either, had packages go missing and finally show up 6 months later (when I no longer needed them)..

USPS needs to stay.. private mailboxes are horrendously costly and the cost for a letter, certified mail and packages thru USPS is very reasonable... especially for small businesses and people selling stuff on websites, ebay, etc.. They are not perfect but at least you arent gouged like with private companies, and if USPS goes or goes private, that will change as prices will increase substantially imo.. which makes the stuff you buy more expensive as a result..

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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 4:27:21 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/fixgov/posts/2015/09/22-united-states-postal-service-hudak?utm_source=FB&utm_medium=BPIAds&utm_campaign=USPS&utm_term=NoNoCtyUS-18^65-General%20TanksNoCAnoBHV&utm_content=75402618
Should we eliminate or break up the USPS? My thoughts
- I do believe that government over regulation is hindering the process of mail delivery.
- I do believe that it provides a valuable service
- I do believe that there might be advantages of its total elimination because we wouldn't see as much junk mail
- Snail mail would lessen due to the cost of going through other organizations.
- Cost of delivery services may go up and continue to do so forever.
What is the answer - Allow the USPS do its job without all the overburdening regulation. An impossibility in our ever increasing socialistic society.


http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2012-08-02/understanding-the-post-office-s-benefits-mess

An interesting look from 3 years ago....

According to the article, the USPS has accrued unfunded retirement benefits to the tune of $46B. The $5.5B payments (over and above the $2.5-3B in "pay as you go" retirement costs) are to have all the accrued retirement benefits fully funded.

That's not really a bad idea, is it?

As far as what we should do?
  • Maintain a basic level of service. There's nothing wrong with spending 46¢ to get a letter from anywhere in the US to anywhere else in the US. It might take some time, but, it'll get there. There are services (some within the USPS even) to get stuff from one place to the next faster that cost more, but that's the premium you pay for the reduced delivery time.
  • Allow the USPS to re-organize, get leaner.
  • Reduce the regulations hindering innovation and improvement.
  • Reduce the pre-pay mandate. Instead of it being $5.5B over 10 years, let it be $3B over 20 years.
  • Use overpayments to help reduce the unfunded retirement costs.


Now, the idea that the Federal Government has to provide mail service, that's sorta wrong. The US Constitution lists the authorities of the Federal Government. The Feds have the "power to" do all sorts of things, but not the "duty" or "responsibility" to provide those things.

Congress has the power "to declare war," but Congress doesn't do that 5-6 days per week, and no one is complaining about that, are they?


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(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 4:43:36 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/fixgov/posts/2015/09/22-united-states-postal-service-hudak?utm_source=FB&utm_medium=BPIAds&utm_campaign=USPS&utm_term=NoNoCtyUS-18^65-General%20TanksNoCAnoBHV&utm_content=75402618

Should we eliminate or break up the USPS? My thoughts

- I do believe that government over regulation is hindering the process of mail delivery.
- I do believe that it provides a valuable service
- I do believe that there might be advantages of its total elimination because we wouldn't see as much junk mail
- Snail mail would lessen due to the cost of going through other organizations.
- Cost of delivery services may go up and continue to do so forever.

What is the answer - Allow the USPS do its job without all the overburdening regulation. An impossibility in our ever increasing socialistic society.


If you feel that way about the US Postal Service, perhaps you might look at your own political party closer. They are the ones creating problems for the carrier. They hit the organization with a payment scheme that forces them to fund a retirement plan for those individuals that have not entered the organization's membership in ten years from today's date. That's right, the GOP/TP forced a retirement plan on the USPS to pay a retirement plan for someone that has not started working for the USPS until 2025!

The payments to this retirement system are so completely insane, the organization has had failing numbers each year. Imagine if the US Government had to do the same thing for the US Military? It would be bankrupted within two weeks!

Republicans have placed many hurdles in the USPS way on purpose. It servers their interests and not the interests of the citizen population as a whole. The problems the USPS have is not because of failures on their part, but of the Republican Congress's doing. Try getting the facts before siding with the GOP/TP if you like getting your mail at a rate better than privately own corporations.





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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 5:06:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I would not like the delivery of my mail to depend on profitability.... Why would anyone think that all services provided by our tax dollar need to make a profit... It is a service well worth the outlay of money.

Butch

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RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 5:49:18 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I would not like the delivery of my mail to depend on profitability.... Why would anyone think that all services provided by our tax dollar need to make a profit... It is a service well worth the outlay of money.


The ones that think money is the 'end all, be all' of existence. The people that would walk to a specific bank to cash a check worth $0.13. The ones that want their taxes lowered because they often buy more than they take in/earn in a given week. The ones that would rather have money spent on them when they are not in need of any help then those that could REALLY use the help.

Basically, the people still trying to find the moral justification to be a selfish asshole!

...like those whom vote for the GOP/TP...

Should we be at all surprise....who...created the financial problems USPS has right now? They are the same ones that created the nation's debt problems.




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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 5:55:08 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		Private industry wants no part of the USPS with the financial requirements a few here have already touched on...still in place. There's another reason and that is the USPS subsidizes bulk mail-outs with 1st class costs and private industry will no longer do that as they would have to raise 1st class rates and the public would leave.

The lobby for bulk mail wants the situation just the way it is...period. Nice and cheap.

Now if private industry could buy the USPS for pennies on the dollar, scrap the union, lay off 1000's and pay minimum wage, no we're talking and I think we know why. You see, for private industry and model already set in place, it would no longer be about the mail, as always, it would be...about the money. (profits)

Furthermore, if there were losses, taxpayers would still bail it out. So all that would happen is according to the new model, privatize profits...socialize risk.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/29/2015 6:03:26 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 7:28:36 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		You cannot compare postal services that cross borders. The USPS has no control on how the Customs Inspectors want to play silly buggers with their inspections or how much the customs inspections are backlogged.

One thing I have noted since working a contract in Canada this year. Canada to U.S. address mail takes 3-5 days. U.S. to Canada takes 2-3 weeks. If you put tracking on it; you find a week or more in "customs".

Now if you hark back to the early 60s; there was morning and evening mail delivery and a first class stamp was 3 cents. For some reason; every time congress starts talking about doing something to improve the USPS you get less service higher cost and slower mail. Hmmmm. Maybe we need to fix congress and leave the postal service alone. <grin>

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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: USPS - 9/29/2015 7:52:40 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		I agree that the USPS doesn't need to show a profit. but they are in the RED at around 8 billion dollars a year. That's a lot of red ink.

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RE: USPS - 9/30/2015 5:06:47 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

the USPS perpetually operates in the red and since its services are more or less replicated, or can be replicated, by the private sector, that's as good of an argument as any to disband it.

although, getting rid of the usps union would be a good start too. although, im a little fuzzy on if the usps is wholly a "public sector" such that id be okay getting rid of the union.

actually it does make a profit (according to this report from 2011).. the problem is the govt takes a huge chunk..

"Operationally speaking, the USPS nets profits every year. The financial problem it faces now comes from a 2006 Congressional mandate that requires the agency to “pre-pay” into a fund that covers health care costs for future retired employees. Under the mandate, the USPS is required to make an annual $5.5 billion payment over ten years, through 2016. These “prepayments” are largely responsible for the USPS’s financial losses over the past four years and the threat of shutdown that looms ahead – take the retirement fund out of the equation, and the postal service would have actually netted $1 billion in profits over this period."



what im about to say might be a little simplistic---then those costs are a part of the bottom line they are contractually obligated to meet and so, no they don't make a profit. note I criticized the unions as being an integral part of the mess.

but that said, its apparently pretty complicated and I came across this that touches on many of the issues:

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/06/postal-pension-refund-is-a-disguised-taxpayer-bailout

this is the closing statement:

quote:

The USPS is attempting to use some extremely creative accounting to finance its day-to-day operations and to avoid paying some of its employee pension costs. If Congress allows the USPS to get away with these machinations, taxpayers will pay a much higher cost. The USPS needs to face the reality that people are sending many fewer letters and using e-mail more and that private carriers can deliver packages just as well as the USPS can. Rather than allow the USPS to pass its pension costs on to the taxpayer, Congress should require it to make comprehensive reforms that recognize new realities and enable it to restructure its operations accordingly.






< Message edited by bounty44 -- 9/30/2015 5:09:07 AM >

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