True Freedom

True Freedom (Full Version)

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[Poll]

True Freedom

True

46% (6)

False

53% (7)

Total Votes : 13

(last vote on : 10/6/2015 6:25:48 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

Kirata -> True Freedom (10/2/2015 12:23:03 PM)
Proposition: True freedom requires freedom from destitution and freedom from the demands of the employer. This proposition appears in an opinion piece published by the Washington Post (here) arguing for a universal basic income. K. Poll edited (with 1 vote cast) to replace "Yes" and "No" with "True" and "False" and remove the sarcastic "What??" option.

PyrotheClown -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 12:27:24 PM)
My outlook is simple We all do better,when we all do better.

Kirata -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 12:49:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown My outlook is simple We all do better,when we all do better. Would we all do better? I think there are problems with this proposition, not least of all that "true" modifier. When someone starts bloviating about what constitutes a "true" Dom or sub, the universal response is derision. What, precisely, constitutes "true" freedom? And who says so? Moreover, purely as a practical matter, where does the money come from? If it comes from taxes imposed on the incomes of those who dutifully discharge the requirements of their employment, those people won't be doing better, and they would have to be a majority of the people for it to work. Alternatively, what happens in a Socialist state where the employer is the state? How does a Socialist state that adopts such a policy fulfill its obligation to provide a universal basic income and, simultaneously, tolerate people who defy its requirements? K.

Aylee -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 12:59:16 PM)
Nope. True freedom requires the freedom to starve. TANSTAAFL ~There comes a time in the life of every human when he or she must decide to risk "his life, his fortune, and his sacred honor" on an outcome dubious. Those who fail the challenge are merely overgrown children, can never be anything else. ~ It [now] seems to me that every time we manage to establish one freedom, they take another one away. Maybe two. And that seems to me characteristic of a society as it gets older, and more crowded, and higher taxes, and more laws. The Robert Heinlein Interview, and other Heinleiniana (1973) by J. Neil Schulman (published in 1990)

thompsonx -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 1:14:51 PM)
ORIGINAL: Aylee ~There comes a time in the life of every human when he or she must decide to risk "his life, his fortune, and his sacred honor" on an outcome dubious. Those who fail the challenge are merely overgrown children, can never be anything else. Yet without these "overgrown children" to do the actual day to day work these supposed "cultural heros" would have to get a job.

thompsonx -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 1:16:38 PM)
Or again, what happens in a Socialist state where the employer is the state? How does a Socialist state that adopts such a policy fulfill its obligation to provide a universal basic income and, simultaneously, tolerate people who defy its requirements? "Looking backward from the year 2000" by edward belamy answers that question.

Aylee -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 1:41:19 PM)
You might find this interesting Kirata: http://www.newgeography.com/content/005057-new-report-putting-people-first quote: A fundamental function of domestic policy is to facilitate better standards of living and minimize poverty. Yet favored urban planning policies, called “urban containment” or “smart growth,” have been shown to drive the price of housing up, significantly reducing discretionary incomes, which necessarily reduces the standard of living and increases poverty. This makes the alleviation of poverty, the opportunity for better living standards and aspirations for upward mobility secondary to contemporary urban planning prescriptions. Despite this, calls to intensify land use regulations are becoming stronger and more insistent. Historically, the best way to increase standards of living and minimize poverty is for government to get out of the way and let the powerful combination of self-interest, liberty, and generosity operate. When governments seek to create better standards of living, instead of letting people's free choices do the job, the outcome is always less than liberty would produce and is often just plain wretched, vis East and West Berlin, c. 1970.

thompsonx -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 2:02:31 PM)
ORIGINAL: Aylee Historically, the best way to increase standards of living and minimize poverty is for government to get out of the way and let the powerful combination of self-interest, liberty, and generosity operate. If this were hysterically correct, you should have no trouble documenting when this has occured during the history of mankind. When governments seek to create better standards of living, instead of letting people's free choices do the job, the outcome is always less than liberty would produce and is often just plain wretched, vis East and West Berlin, c. 1970. Please do tell us what the difference was in the economies of the two countries

Kirata -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 2:19:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx "Looking backward from the year 2000" by edward belamy answers that question. Yeah, no. Belamy's utopian fantasy bases itself on the discredited belief that morality has no ground in human nature but rather depends on the environment in which the individual finds himself, a notion which, despite it fond promotion by utopian lunatics, is unadulterated bunk. The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature K.

thompsonx -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 5:23:19 PM)
ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx "Looking backward from the year 2000" by edward belamy answers that question. Yeah, no. Belamy's utopian fantasy bases itself on the discredited belief that morality has no ground in human nature but rather depends on the environment in which the individual finds himself, a notion which, despite it fond promotion by utopian lunatics, is unadulterated bunk. Another book you have not read that you feel qualified to comment on.[8\|]

PeonForHer -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 5:30:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx "Looking backward from the year 2000" by edward belamy answers that question. Yeah, no. Belamy's utopian fantasy bases itself on the discredited belief that morality has no ground in human nature but rather depends on the environment in which the individual finds himself, a notion which, despite it fond promotion by utopian lunatics, is unadulterated bunk. The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature K. I'd not heard of the book, I must admit. It does seem surprising to me, though, that a socialist (though it seems the author avoided that term) would believe that morality has no grounding in human nature. The standard belief amongst socialists is that it's there in human nature, but gets warped by an environment that forces greed and selfishness upon us all.

thompsonx -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 5:34:36 PM)
I'd not heard of the book, I must admit. It does seem surprising to me, though, that a socialist (though it seems the author avoided that term) would believe that morality has no grounding in human nature. The standard belief amongst socialists is that it's there in human nature, but gets warped by an environment that forces greed and selfishness upon us all. It was written in 1897...some twenty years before the russian revolution.

PeonForHer -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 5:53:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx I'd not heard of the book, I must admit. It does seem surprising to me, though, that a socialist (though it seems the author avoided that term) would believe that morality has no grounding in human nature. The standard belief amongst socialists is that it's there in human nature, but gets warped by an environment that forces greed and selfishness upon us all. It was written in 1897...some twenty years before the russian revolution. Yes ... but the term 'socialism' had been in currency since the early 19th C .... I don't see your point, T.

Kirata -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 6:00:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx "Looking backward from the year 2000" by edward belamy answers that question. Yeah, no. Belamy's utopian fantasy bases itself on the discredited belief that morality has no ground in human nature but rather depends on the environment in which the individual finds himself, a notion which, despite it fond promotion by utopian lunatics, is unadulterated bunk. Another book you have not read that you feel qualified to comment on. Your use of the word "another" makes me wonder what you imagine the first one to be, but I digress. In the present case, there is no such book. Apparently you couldn't even cite its title correctly, or for that matter its author's name (an error I accidentally reproduced in my post). The book you may have in mind is "Looking Backward" by Edward Bellamy. But of course, with you one can never be sure. K.

thompsonx -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 6:24:21 PM)
ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Yes ... but the term 'socialism' had been in currency since the early 19th C .... I don't see your point, T. Precusor

thompsonx -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 6:26:54 PM)
ORIGINAL: Kirata Your use of the word "another" makes me wonder what you imagine the first one to be, but I digress. The two little books written by the doj In the present case, there is no such book. And yet you found that non existant book that you will never read.[8\|]

Kirata -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 6:57:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I'd not heard of the book, I must admit. It does seem surprising to me, though, that a socialist (though it seems the author avoided that term) would believe that morality has no grounding in human nature. The standard belief amongst socialists is that it's there in human nature, but gets warped by an environment that forces greed and selfishness upon us all. Bellamy viewed his book as a "fairy tale of social felicity" wherein changing the system produced sweetness and light. Socialists flocked to it, and Bellamy raised no objection to his resulting popularity and fame. But whether or not he was ever really a Socialist is subject to debate. When the movement his book started failed financially and was absorbed into the People's Party, he returned to writing. Personally, I've never heard a Socialist propose the argument that humans are naturally moral beings, crushed by the evils of competition. But if they do, then they overlook the fact that we also have a natural capacity for greed and corruption, which has never been eradicated by any system anywhere, Socialist or otherwise, just as the alleged evils of competition have never eradicated moral behavior. K.

Kirata -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 7:04:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Your use of the word "another" makes me wonder what you imagine the first one to be, but I digress. The two little books written by the doj Ah yes, those would be ones that you didn't recognize when I quoted directly from one of them. K.

kdsub -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 7:40:04 PM)
A silly way of thinking and unworkable...I am all for increasing opportunity through education but there are some things that cannot be given... a personal responsibility mindset. Anyone, not disabled either mentally or physically, with a personal responsibility mindset can at least support themselves in this country. We are blessed to have a support system in times of need to aid responsible people until they can find employment in hard economic times. Your wealth may not equal mine or mine yours but how important is wealth when compared to the ability to support yourself responsibly. If you are too proud to dig a ditch or heave a trashcan or flip burgers then you don't deserve the things in life that hard work and perseverance can provide you. Butch

MrRodgers -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 8:33:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx "Looking backward from the year 2000" by edward belamy answers that question. Yeah, no. Belamy's utopian fantasy bases itself on the discredited belief that morality has no ground in human nature but rather depends on the environment in which the individual finds himself, a notion which, despite it fond promotion by utopian lunatics, is unadulterated bunk. The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature K. First. the 'dogma' is a strawman, "Pinker argues that the 'dogma' that the mind has no innate traits-a doctrine held by many intellectuals during the past century-denies our common humanity and our individual preferences, replaces objective analyses of social problems with feel-good slogans, and distorts our understanding of politics....." I know of no such dogma. Rather I do know a little more about human nature as has been demonstrated for over 100 years. It is one of liberty, struggle, self interest that in humans and their 'nature,' all too often goes way too far and results in greed, consummation of power as a means to satisfy more greed. What most intellectuals of the 20th century have argued, is about what they witnessed and that in liberty and property, a person is to create a profit for himself or another or they are at best...marginalized. Some say, can go to jail or die. Yet some hold to a modern dogma presenting that persons in the womb are to be protected by govt. as what could as easily be described as a required future profit center, in liberty once born...left to its own devices. We had a choice...either Aristotle's democracy or Madison's democracy and at the const. conv. an equal argument was made for the former but instead adopted...the latter whose emphasis was on Madison's protection of wealth and property not on Aristotle's equality of results or for a floor under which the masses would not fall and thus the masses through their demo-graphic/cratic power...would not threaten wealth and property. The Soul of Money The expression 'true' dom is merely semantic vanity.

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