quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The problem is not now nor has it ever been guns. The problem is with humanity. Through out its history, humans have been making more strides in how to kill each other than most other endeavors.

quote:



But have you stopped to think about who the majority of people are that commit violence with a gun??

I can think of mainly two sets of people -
Americans - where they have the highest number of guns per capita than anywhere else on the planet and have regular massacres;
And those at war, which appear to be some faction or other of the Islamic faith fighting another faction just because they follow a different version of the Qoran or holy book.

If you removed those two groups, the world would be a more peaceful place... generally speaking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

This is pretty much the point that I was trying to make on the other thread. I didn't do a great job of it, so let's see if I can mess up this thread, too.

The category that folks are looking for isn't 'gun owner'. The category that folks should be looking for is "criminal".

Some people do really horrible things to each other. You don't get to pick and choose who might do this or might do that based on their religion, where they live, or any other thing that's going on except what is going on between that person's set of ears. You don't get to blame other people who might share a category with an individual who does a hideous thing, such as penalizing all gun owners because *some* gun owners go out and do an evil thing.

When something like this happens, most decent people have empathy for the families that had someone ripped away from them. We want to fix it, or prevent it, or try to *do* something. The guns honestly aren't the source of the problem. It's what certain people do with the guns that is the problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

This is pretty much the point that I was trying to make on the other thread. I didn't do a great job of it, so let's see if I can mess up this thread, too.

The category that folks are looking for isn't 'gun owner'. The category that folks should be looking for is "criminal".

Some people do really horrible things to each other. You don't get to pick and choose who might do this or might do that based on their religion, where they live, or any other thing that's going on except what is going on between that person's set of ears. You don't get to blame other people who might share a category with an individual who does a hideous thing, such as penalizing all gun owners because *some* gun owners go out and do an evil thing.

When something like this happens, most decent people have empathy for the families that had someone ripped away from them. We want to fix it, or prevent it, or try to *do* something. The guns honestly aren't the source of the problem. It's what certain people do with the guns that is the problem.

Like I said, the human race in general

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Just as in another post, I argue it isn't just human nature. It is also their environment. Having a 200 year history of individual liberty and also in that history, the right to bear arms, has created a social culture of guns. From back in the day and even into the 20th century, people used guns for hunting for food and also as a hobby which has grown where hunting is now a hobby, guns no longer needed for food. The result, the citizens have depending on who you read...150 to 200 million guns.

That culture has lead to another social/political compact that has also created given that a society as large and diverse as ours, a regime where it cannot be reasonably be assumed that society at all times...has that gun ownership under total control.

If we must divide the question of gun ownership into the right left archetype, then the right wants the status quo and the left wants more control. Banning guns will not end the killings, more control might prevent at least a few. It's a question of whether society chooses to remain almost completely...slave to a culture. If society does, then the killings will be the price society pays for it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Guns per capita US Ranks Number 1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Homicide per capata US Ranks Number 79

Homicide rate per capita for guns US Ranks Number 13

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide

Crime in the United States has been recorded since colonization. Crime rates have varied over time, with a sharp rise after 1963, reaching a broad peak between the 1970s and early 1990s. Since then, crime has declined significantly in the United States,[1] and current crime rates are approximately the same as those of the 1960s

Crime in ten largest metropolitan areas (2011)
Violent Property
New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA MSA 406.0 1744.1
Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA MSA 405.4 2232.7
Chicago-Joliet-Naperville, IL-IN-WI MSA > 304.8 2791.5
Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX MSA 358.4 3498.5
Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX MSA 550.8 3576.9
Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD MSA 532.3 2747.3
Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA 334.6 2386.0
Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL MSA 596.7 4193.3
Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA MSA 400.9 3552.0
Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH MSA 374.7 2109.0

(Added by me) Predominately Democratically controlled Cities.

We are neither the best or the worst for violent crime. But even with the increase in guns the violent crime rate is dropping. I wish it would drop further.

Edited to add don't you love the way that they compressed the columns

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Just as in another post, I argue it isn't just human nature. It is also their environment. Having a 200 year history of individual liberty and also in that history, the right to bear arms, has created a social culture of guns. From back in the day and even into the 20th century, people used guns for hunting for food and also as a hobby which has grown where hunting is now a hobby, guns no longer needed for food. The result, the citizens have depending on who you read...150 to 200 million guns.

That culture has lead to another social/political compact that has also created given that a society as large and diverse as ours, a regime where it cannot be reasonably be assumed that society at all times...has that gun ownership under total control.

If we must divide the question of gun ownership into the right left archetype, then the right wants the status quo and the left wants more control. Banning guns will not end the killings, more control might prevent at least a few. It's a question of whether society chooses to remain almost completely...slave to a culture. If society does, then the killings will be the price society pays for it.

I guess you missed a few points I mentioned.

1) Inter-tribal conflict in Africa, whole villages wiped out for no more reason than the fact it is a different tribe, many times using everything from guns to clubs to pull off the massacre.

2) Massacres between religious sects, especially in the Middle East, where strangely enough, many countries with very strict gunlaws seem to be having a major gun problem, in the hands of whatever sect of Islam that wants to destroy the other.

3) India, Hindu killing Punjabi and vice versa, again primarily not guns, just anything at hand makes a good enough weapon to kill another human being.

Mass murder and mass killings are not, contrary to the liberal and foreign belief, a uniquely American problem. But lets blame guns, because it is cool and politically correct to do so.

Lets also claim that it only happens in the US, again because it is cool and politically correct to do so.

Lets forget the fact that the Swiss actually REQUIRE people to own guns and do not have the same problem, and I would hold up the much lower population of the country and a damn good reason.

Lets also forget that before street gangs had ready access to guns, which have been available for the entire 20th century, switch blade knives made a easy and much more personal weapon.

I will again point out, you take guns out of the equation, and people are still going to find a way to kill large numbers of people, and without the limit of a gun, a car bomb will do a lot more damage and take out a hell of a lot more people.... I think the American Embassy in Kenya kinda proved that point, the Marine Barracks in Beirut, the recent bomb attacks on mosques around the middle east, etc.

To be honest, Im kinda glad that these idiots haven't figured out what to do with diesel fuel and ammonia nitrate fertilizer. The fact the propane tank bombs that were found at Columbine did not go off is a blessing.

It is not guns people, it is people. And considering the number of massacres in the news each week, the increasing number of suicide bombers in the news, and of course ISIS who came to have guns in countries where private ownership is illegal, kind of proves my point.

Get it through your head, humans like to kill humans, and have been doing it since before the stone age, and technology has made it easier to do that. Why the hell do you think there is a concern about the proliferation of nuclear weapons? Or a terrorist getting one into a major city?

Personally, considering what I have seen first hand, I would convert a tractor trailer hauling Propane or LPG into a really big fuel air bomb and take out a hell of a lot more area. But thats just me, I like efficiency.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Humans do NOT like to kill humans. Humans are generally territorial beasts who have the ability to behave like apes when they get angry. Humans can be very unpredictable, just like any other animal and humans can be incredibly impulsive, especially when they are volatile from depression. These are the very reason the majority of humans shouldn't carry a gun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Why is it when conservative scream that all Muslims are terrorists with the goal of killing Americans do liberals take offense and say "only a small majority of Muslims are terrorists and we should not condemn the entire religion," when they themselves turn and say that anyone that wants to own a gun is a potential mass murderer?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Why is it when conservative scream that all Muslims are terrorists with the goal of killing Americans do liberals take offense and say "only a small majority of Muslims are terrorists and we should not condemn the entire religion," when they themselves turn and say that anyone that wants to own a gun is a potential mass murderer?

Well, it's because:

1) it's true that "only a small majority of Muslims are terrorists and we should not condemn the entire religion,"

2) it's not true that "liberals take offense" when simply pointing out reality, and

3) it's not true that "they themselves turn and say that anyone that wants to own a gun is a potential mass murderer."

Thanks for playing. But this problem exists only in your imagination.

Would you now like to have a real discussion about something actually happening?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
...Clearly there is some correlation between insanely high population densities and people killing each other.

Hell, just look at this:

Gun violence in the United States by state