quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

No documented cases of serious harm is not necessarily that reassuring, given that Tasers were sold to us as a "safe" alternative to other forms of force, yet have killed a number of people, including those who seemed to have no cardiac arrhythmia or other underlying medical condition.

I suppose the "safety" of the electric shock dog collar comes from the low level of current involved, but for a definitive answer, you need a large enough sample to be sure. Given that shocking a sub when s/he least expects it is not a certified or well-researched use of such a collar, such evidence isn't going to emerge.

As a society, we got the large sample type of evidence with Tasers unfortunately by assaulting a large number of citizens, and then having to apologise to some of their families for the injuries and deaths caused as a result.

But in truth, nothing is completely safe, and a shock collar seems more cruel than dangerous, which would seem to be exactly the point. In a world where people die crossing the road, jogging, taking a shit and climaxing with their lovers, perhaps a minor electro-cardiac risk, if understood by all parties, isn't a huge problem.

Your comments indicate you haven't looked very hard.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=serious+harm+from+shock+collars&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=57cWVr7_B4viUf_Pg5gE
That tells me that shock collars are not reliable and can indeed cause severe harm and even death.

Excerpt from one of the top-most listed sites: "...known to short circuit when they get wet causing severe injury and sometimes death."
So much for you stating "No documented cases of serious harm...".

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Your comments indicate you haven't looked very hard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Excerpt from one of the top-most listed sites: "...known to short circuit when they get wet causing severe injury and sometimes death."
So much for you stating "No documented cases of serious harm...".

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

We've recently, after spending a lot of time researching and trying to find answers, acquired a remote control shock collar.
We're fully intending at this point to use it on the neck, as intended on dogs.

That being said, we're taking it incredibly slow, and starting out at very low settings and levels (lowest setting on the one we got is barely even noticeable, akin to the 'tingling' sensation a TENS unit gives on low settings).
Throughout our research, we've heard all the warnings about this being dangerous, because it can cause burns, cardiac arrest, muscle spasms, throat collapse, suffocation from throat muscles tensing, etc.

However, in all of our research, we didn't find a SINGLE documented case, anywhere, of something actually going seriously wrong, or fatally wrong with one of these things. On humans or on animals for that matter.

I can find all kinds of horror stories in the kink community of people saying these things are dangerous and can kill you, because that's what they heard, but I can't actually find any evidence of it ever happening.
Likewise I can find all kinds of horror stories, mostly on animal welfare group pages, saying that these things can seriously harm and/or kill dogs, but I can't actually find any documented evidence of a dog dying from the use of a shock collar.

At the same time, the net is littered with videos of pet owners using these things on themselves, before putting it on their dog, or on their buddies while they're drunk, and so on.

One would think that, given the fact that so many people have tried it (both kinksters and vanillas), and the animal welfare groups are so bend on prohibiting these things, that IF there were documented fatality cases, in either humans or pets, they'd be relatively easy to find.
They're not. As far as I can tell, there aren't any documented fatalities at all, or serious injuries at all, with the notable exception of dogs getting their collars stuck on stuff and shocking to death.

That being said: I am well aware of the fact that the absence of negative evidence does not prove safety.
Just because there currently is no proof (or I can't find it) that they're really dangerous, doesn't mean they're actually safe... so perhaps I'll become the first documented case of a fatality of a dog shock collar in a kinky context.

Before risking being the first documented fatality I want to try one last time though: Is anybody aware of any DOCUMENTED evidence -no hearsay, unsubstantiated horror stories, or myths please- of something seriously going wrong when using a dog shock collar on humans?

quote:

ORIGINAL: alpha499

NotaBULL ,you leave my Goddess alone😠

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

The use of shock collars on dogs is potentially physically and psychologically damaging. As such it is my belief that clearly constitutes animal cruelty. If someone feels they have a situation in which a shock collar is required they should be thinking very seriously about how they are managing the training and behaviour of the dog, the risks posed by that dog's behaviour and/or the risks inherent in the environment. Thinking that there is no alternative but to deliver an electric shock to an animal, who should never require it, says a lot about what kind of dog owner you are. Other posters have included statements about current shock collars not burning the dog, but the psychological effects of using this sort of control must be a cause for concern.

quote:

There is no doubt that shock collars cause pain. While proponents might call it a “stim” a “tap,” or a “static charge” we know from the science of operant conditioning that the aversive stimulus (electric shock) must be sufficiently aversive (i.e. painful) in order to cause a change in behavior.

quote:

A third study compared the features of several shock collars and examined how they are used by typical pet owners. The researchers concluded “for a subset of dogs tested, the previous use of e-collars in training are associated with behavioural and physiological responses that are consistent with significant negative emotional states; this was not seen to the same extent in the control population. It is therefore suggested that the use of e-collars in training pet dogs can lead to a negative impact on welfare, at least in a proportion of animals trained using this technique.”

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

As someone who trained dogs for 22 years and worked in rescue and rehab, let me just tell you something.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

As far as human use, I would personally not use a shock collar on the neck of a human. Our skin is thinner than dog's skin, and our nervous system is closer to the surface. Also, considering that you are going to be using it for punishment, you will likely be turning the shock up higher (at least in perception to the human) than I ever would have with a dog.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

As someone who trained dogs for 22 years and worked in rescue and rehab, let me just tell you something.

You got any die from shock collar use?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

As far as human use, I would personally not use a shock collar on the neck of a human. Our skin is thinner than dog's skin, and our nervous system is closer to the surface. Also, considering that you are going to be using it for punishment, you will likely be turning the shock up higher (at least in perception to the human) than I ever would have with a dog.

Actually, when used on the neck, the primary reason for it will be to grab attention long distance, mostly by means of the tone/vibration, just like with dogs, for coffee refill and so on without a need to holler, and as a deterrent from having the need to punish, and considering what a deep psychological fear reaction even a minor shock or even vibration gives (at least for now), I don't at the moment anticipate getting higher level shocks specifically for punishment. Just like with dogs, I think that would be counterproductive, because the point isn't so much to torture for misbehavior, as to give a very attention grabbing reminder to be good.

quote:

Torture scenes are a different matter though. We might end up using them on the neck at high intensities for the specific purpose of torture. At that point it won't be tied to behavior, and it won't be tied to operand conditioning though. It will be a clear cut "this is happening because the Top is enjoying seeing you suffer".
I'm not comfortable enough enough yet to use them for torture scene purposes on the neck specifically, because of the whole us having a nervous system closer to the surface than dogs do thing.
Might do so in the future, but for the moment intensity on the neck is kept way way down, in the realm of "you're not fast enough refilling my coffee, hurry the fuck up, or I'm going to zap you for real instead of just scare you".

quote:

ORIGINAL: alpha499

Hey,Goddess, I don't think one would venture to delve into such complicated technical domain without strong and legal evidences, that tasers or shock collars are lethal , they are designed -not-to-kill, so such document dies not exist, call the search off, You need something over 0.5 amps to kill you, a taser at 50,000 V simply doesn't deliver that much amperage. A 240V power line in your house can. Tasers and shock collars operate on batteries, DC they deliver very high voltage not tje "current" for a short time ,that the body can resist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

I'm assuming that you and notaBull share an IP address, or a bed, or both, or most likely the same free hand when you are typing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

"Shock" collars (e-collars), like "Pinch" collars (prong collars) have received poor press, and have been made out to be something completely different than what they are, by people who don't know any better, watching people who don't know how to use them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Just an aside comment here but pinch collars are fabulous on breasts. Tug on that

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

"Shock" collars (e-collars), like "Pinch" collars (prong collars) have received poor press, and have been made out to be something completely different than what they are, by people who don't know any better, watching people who don't know how to use them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

The use of shock collars on dogs is potentially physically and psychologically damaging. As such it is my belief that clearly constitutes animal cruelty. If someone feels they have a situation in which a shock collar is required they should be thinking very seriously about how they are managing the training and behaviour of the dog, the risks posed by that dog's behaviour and/or the risks inherent in the environment. Thinking that there is no alternative but to deliver an electric shock to an animal, who should never require it, says a lot about what kind of dog owner you are. Other posters have included statements about current shock collars not burning the dog, but the psychological effects of using this sort of control must be a cause for concern.

As someone who trained dogs for 22 years and worked in rescue and rehab, let me just tell you something.

You know not of which you speak.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

The use of shock collars on dogs is potentially physically and psychologically damaging. As such it is my belief that clearly constitutes animal cruelty. If someone feels they have a situation in which a shock collar is required they should be thinking very seriously about how they are managing the training and behaviour of the dog, the risks posed by that dog's behaviour and/or the risks inherent in the environment. Thinking that there is no alternative but to deliver an electric shock to an animal, who should never require it, says a lot about what kind of dog owner you are. Other posters have included statements about current shock collars not burning the dog, but the psychological effects of using this sort of control must be a cause for concern.

As someone who trained dogs for 22 years and worked in rescue and rehab, let me just tell you something.

You know not of which you speak.

I think we have an honest disagreement here.

You are of course quite correct in terms of my knowledge of the direct use of shock collars on dogs, because, as you can tell, I do not choose to use them. And this despite many years on my part of looking after and retraining, often mistreated, rescued dogs, and on the being involved along with my family when I was younger.

quote:

My issue with shock collar use on dogs is not those people such as you, who use them in a thoughtful manner, with an enlightened approach to the best interest of the dog. My concern is in two parts (1) that they are used inappropriately ion occasions and there is plenty of potential for that to happen, and (2) there are other ways to manage the situations you would be likely to use a shock collar in.

quote:

I do not subscribe to the usual over the top, half researched stories of badly burned dogs and multiple dog deaths. However modified shock collars are used by certain groups in the UK for the inappropriate control of large, aggressive dogs (including those dogs who are illegal in the UK).

quote:

In terms of the proper use of shock collars to remind a dog of your presence, my view on distance training is that if I can't control a dog with my voice or a whistle, then I cannot safely control the dog at that distance.

quote:

The ability to make a rescued racing dog, such as a greyhound, stop dead when you yell is life saving for the dog and often other people. The obvious remedies are further gradual, training, or keeping the dog always at a distance you are able to control them at (and for some dogs that will be not much further than you can grab them by stretching out).

quote:

In terms of the use of electric devices to modify animal behaviour, the Kennel Club, RSPCA and a number of other bodies are opposed to their use, indeed shock collars are illegal in parts of the UK, with fines having been administered to a man who used it to contain his dog, who ironically was found wandering along a nearby beach, collar intact. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927 Even in an area such as cattle control the responsible UK government ministry discourages their use on the grounds of over-stimulation of the animals, and suggests a more thoughtful approach to understanding issues of cattle movement in most situations (a view shared by at least one livestock farmer I know).

quote:

Incidentally the penalty for a dog being out of control in the UK is an unlimited fine and up to 6 months in prison, where there are no consequences, 5 years, where another individual is hurt, and 14 years in the case of a death. If my dog was over 100 yards away from me and caused a vehicle collision, I wouldn't want to explain to a sceptical court that the dog normally responded to a very gentle electric stimulus, but in this case did not. The possibility of a dog being able to respond to me at a distance beyond them responding to my voice (and I am sure that a properly used shock collar may help) is attractive but not something I would want to rely on.

quote:

So to return to your original comment, you are right. I have not used a shock collar on a dog, and I don't doubt your sincerity and skill in training dogs using one. You would probably also dispute the evidence of some of the studies about stress, and having had a quick look at some of them recently, you would probably be right, in terms of the design of the research if nothing else.

Compared to you, I probably also have a very European approach to civil liberties, in that I think that enhancing liberty by preventing harm to a minority of dogs by constraining the liberty of a larger number of owners, who may use a collar effectively, is justified. That is the same reason why I oppose firearm ownership, despite living in a country subject to gun crime and terrorism. None of us use choke-chains any more despite their popularity in the seventies, not because they cannot be used effectively but because some people misused them. For that reason I will not use a shock collar, quite apart from it's dubious legality in the UK.

For me liberty includes freedom from harm, and that in some cases means the state being involved in preventing harm, not just prosecution of those who transcend.

quote:

I am aware that is a point of view which is open to many challenges, especially since I believe that people engaging in consensual BDSM (including the use of shock collars) should not be subject, within reason, to legal restrictions.

Finally with respect to human use, I would personally be cautious about a shock collar anywhere near someone's neck, unless the voltage and current were really low, but hopefully we are all capable adults and able to make our own decisions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
I therefore reluctantly accept the law banning certain breeds, despite the joy they have brought to many.

quote:

Vive la différence.