joether
Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: joether
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: joether
Up for a debate on the merits of the topic, DesideriScuri?
I view Photo ID for voting to be a violation of the 4th amendment. In that the government has no right to your "personal papers" unless they have probable cause you are either in the process, or have commuted some crime or unlawful action.
I know your stance, Joether. I disagree with it. The difference in our stances comes down to one fucking word: reasonable. I think it's reasonable to ask for ID, while you do not.
So you would hand over your photo ID to someone in government if they asked it? Regardless of the reason? Your answer would have to be 'yes', to not agree with my viewpoint here. There is a reason the 4th amendment exists. It is to protect us from unreasonable searches by the government. Why does someone in the voting booth have to know my driver's license? My date of birth? Any information from my passport? Why is this information important to them?
Wrong. My answer does not have to be yes to not agree with your viewpoint. The right to vote in our elections is only a right to citizens that qualify, or those that haven't been disqualified. A picture ID is one way we demonstrate who we are. That we have to pass the citizenship part to be a registered voter is only the first step. John Q. Public is a citizen and has registered. But, who's to say that the guy coming in to vote as John Q. Public actually is John Q. Public? Thus, the photo ID request is quite reasonable.
The ONLY two requirements to vote: 1 ) Be a US Citizen, 2 ) Older than 18 years of age.
In the time since the US Constitution has been created, we have defined people in certain circumstances as not having said right (i.e. due to criminal action and convicted). But we have NEVER required people to show their Photo ID, accused of not being who they say they are, and thus, having to prove their innocence. In this country, one is innocent until proven guilty in a COURT OF LAW.
That means, if someone is faking who they are, they are innocent of the crime the police officer is arresting them on. Its up to the prosecution to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the faker was indeed, breaking the law. Before a jury of his/her peers. You can look it up in US Law if you dont believe me....
The way you prove one person is not someone else, is to be known in the community. Back in the 18th century, they did not have trouble identifying people. Because everyone basically interacted with everyone else on some level throughout the year. In 2015, the people more likely to be impersonated at the voting station are those that do not vote and are not known in the community.
Answer this, what is the profit? What is in it for the faker to vote even a dozen times? Verse the penalty incurred if they are caught and convicted? Since most states have a 5 year and $5,000-$25,000 fine per penalty. Its worst to be caught for voter fraud then mail fraud. How often does mail fraud take place? How often does mail fraud 'grab headlines' in conservative media? There is reality and then there is conservative media when it comes to Photo ID laws.
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: joether
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There is nothing to debate, unless you're ready to see it as reasonable. Judging simply by the fact that you typed a whole lot more crap, I'm going to go ahead and just assume you're not ready to see it that way.
In other words "obey the conservative extremism in the nation"?
You're demonstrating you're out of touch, Joether.
Am I? Or simply showing that conservatives are not facing the problem objectively and with reason? That if someone points out 'the Emperor has no cloths' he must be branded a heretic and killed. Whether literally or figuratively. You forget in our conservative mindset the concept of....FREEDOM....
Why should I have to show my Photo ID? Is my word of honor not good enough? Are my taxes paid not good enough? Is my duties to the community not been fulfilling enough (I do more hours in one week than most do in ten years)?
When someone damns the photo ID from the government, its as an accusation of a crime. That I've guilty and must....PROVE...my innocence. Rather than, I'm innocent until proven guilty. Remember that concept, DS? 'Innocent Until Proven Guilty"? I wonder were that comes from? Must be from some 'liberal' text....
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: joether
Do you have any idea how easy it is to fake a photo ID? Its pretty easy in the right hands. That one just takes a register voter's name, places their photo onto of it, memories the street address, and *POOF* they can vote. They can get the information on who voted and who did not; matter of public record in each town and county. They just take someone who hasn't voted in 2-3 elections; since most likely they will not vote in the current election. The faker is also knowing that only 36.6% of the total voting population turned out in the 2014 election; before that 38.1% in the general election (President Obama vs Mr. Romney).
There you go. That is how your 'defense system' can be totally bypassed.
Take it one step further and have some enterprising group of hackers change files so the image of the person faking takes the place of the real person. Or someone that is dead. So when the honest voter goes into to vote, they are arrested because the image on file is different from the photo ID the person has. What happens? That innocent person is arrested and hauled off to jail on felony charges.
In the absence of a better system, I believe asking for picture ID is reasonable.
Devil's Advocate: Since there is no better system to mitigate or stop mass shootings, we'll just have to ban all the firearms in the nation.
Works both ways, DS!
You didn't even bother addressing the issue I stated. That's because you dont know how. Its too technical for you! I just made an argument to which you do not have a counter argument to. If I can think it up, others can think it up to DS.
I guess you never heard of identity theft, DS. If someone can fake your identity at the voting booths; that's the LEAST of your problems!
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: joether
Many Americans, being falsely arrested whom are innocent, because of your 'defense system'. Sure, later on after things are sorted out, do those people go free. But not before their vote is not counted!
Huh?
Why am I not surprise you didnt understand that. See, a police officer arrests someone for something they did not do. The person accused, proves they could not have done something that is being accused. The police let that person go free.
That's how the system works, DS. That you do not understand how the legal system works is not my fault. Before you start advocating for laws and systems, perhaps you should learn how they operate already?
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: joether
I do not need to even enter into the social/political problems with Photo ID laws yet. You have to explain how you would negate the criminal element first.
The method doesn't have to be foolproof. If it did, then government wouldn't be able to do anything.
Just when you make something foolproof, Evolution makes a better fool!
The method not only has to work, but it ALSO has to be CONSTITUTIONAL. I've pointed out how criminals can easily destroy this new system. I've pointed out how this is a violation of the 4th amendment. I've pointed out a better way to combat voter fraud in the community (i.e. more volunteering by people).
You want a system that doesnt work, doesnt protect, easily destroyed in court and cost a pile of money. An at the same time stating your for 'limited government'.? Do you understand why I'm laughing my ass off at the contradiction?
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: joether
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You will not convince me it's not reasonable. Period.
Your a conservative whom is unable to comprise on issues. You do not understand how things are run in the nation. You demand 'your way or no way at all'; an that causes the system to grind to a halt. Your trouble is not understanding that your 'system' is fatally flawed in so many ways. That we'll spend a pile of money creating it, then defending it in the courts. After that, it'll be overturned on constitutional grounds. A waste of money. By people whom hate seeing the government waste money no less....
I know who I am and what I stand for. You can describe it any way you want, but I know the truth. You're severe distaste for damn near anything Conservative is well known here. You aren't going to fool any but the least knowledgeable.
Right now, conservatives are getting nothing done in Congress. They cant figure out who is to be Speaker because their ego's far out stripe their sense of 'Whats Best For The Nation'. They have admitting to spending federal dollars to push for a witch hunt against a political rival whom can beat down *ALL* of their candidates for the 2016 Presidential run.....hands down! They have yet to call for any major investigations on how someone killed 9 people; but have scrambled over each other when four Americans died a few years ago. What is the conservative philosophy these days? Why is it that conservatives view virtues as horrible things, while trying to be the 'most conservative' out of everyone. Trying to be as 'Reagan' as possible, even though the guy was kinda of liberal.
I could go on and on. Its a very long list. Well off the topic too....
You hate government corruption. You hate government waste. Yet, when your political party is doing it, your absolutely silent on the issues. This issue, 'Photo ID' laws, is corruption and waste. I've shown examples to which you do not have a counter. Can you really say your against corruption and waste, when you vote the very people shelling it out?
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There have been laws that have been upheld as Constitutional. Did you forget that?
Show me which laws state a person starts off guilty and must prove their innocence? That's what Photo ID laws are. Someone accuses me of not being who I say I am, nor living where I say I do. I've been accused and therefore must show my Photo ID to prove my innocence, BEFORE, I am at a court of law, before a jury of my peers. Doesn't that sound alittle unconstitutional?
This is how the system works, DS: I state who I am and where I live; I go vote. If the person taking the notes states "No, this person has already voted", I could show my Photo ID. More likely, I would call the police officer over. I would explain to him what has happened to the best of my knowledge. The officer would ask to see my Photo ID (probable cause has been met here as per the 4th amendment). I show my ID. The police officer contacts the police station to verify information. After getting information and even checking with other people, find I'm who I state I am and live where I state I live. I'm allowed to vote.
Its an inefficient system, I'll grant you that. But its the system we operate under. I do not have to show my papers to the government unless they have probable cause. That implies they are accusing me of some sort of possible wrong doing.
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: joether
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What's left to debate?
Solve the criminal problems. Then we'll move onto the social ones. After that, political.
There isn't any debate. There doesn't have to be a perfect solution. The social problems are being taken care of. The political problems is that the Democrats and the Republicans don't agree. Personally, that's not really a problem in my book. I'm okay with the two parties not agreeing on things.
You didn't address the criminal problems I have with 'Photo ID' laws. That is because I have the facts and evidence on my side. I could show you a 1000 people, each with an ID. You would have to pick out the ones that are fake. Could you do it? Could any of the conservatives on this board do it?
No, of course not. You don't have the training nor experience to spoke the fake IDs from the genuine articles. An I've seen some fake ID's that are pretty spot on like the real thing. It would take you weeks of study just to identify and pass that 1000 person exam. Whose going to pay for all that training, DS? That's just one person, in one voting station. There are many voting stations in American on election day. We going to pay the many billions for people to spot fake IDs? Is that a good use of the taxpayer's dollars?
When its found unconstitutional, that's a HUGE lost of money.
The social and political sides have not be handled. Photo ID laws target those people most vulnerable and vote Democratic. Why do you think the GOP/TP is pushing this bullshit, DS? Where does the homeless person put their ID were it wont get stolen? Or the elderly person whom never really drove nor needed a Photo ID for anything? College students that wish to try voting in the area they are living for the first time?
All these tend to vote for the Democrats. That you can't see the motives is really sad!
The purpose of this thread, is pointing out how Photo ID stations are being closed....by the GOP/TP. In areas mainly of those whom vote Democratic. If you can not see the underlying agenda here, your an idiot. If you can, your just intellectually dishonest.
Which is it?
Your not an idiot. You know exactly what is going on, but do not have the balls to admit it openly. Your not intellectually dishonest here. So that creates a third possibility: You do not really understand freedom. You might think you do. But until you have lost it, how would you really know what it feels like to have it?
The reason why you do not have a counter to the two sections of 'criminal problems' I point out is because the conservative media hasn't explain it. I watch conservative media just the same as the liberal shit. There are social problems with this 'law concept' (the basis of this thread). And then there is constitutional issues (bot hthe 4th and 24th amendments). You can not address any of these. Why is that? An intelligent person whom likes their freedom, could express the answers.
You do not have freedom. Or should I state it more specifically. You have the freedom to state it, but fear (consciously or subconsciously) that doing so makes you less conservative. What I'm expressing towards you, sounds like an odd phenomenon. You have freedom, you can think for yourself, and are reasonably educated. But, for some unknown reason, you can not reach the final understanding. I think its fear. Of what, I have no idea.
I have trouble understanding how your against government corruption and waste, but, at the same time, in favor of both concepts existing in government. As far as this concept and law is concern, it does not make rational sense.
What good is having freedom, DS, when the GOP/TP controls how you think and what you say?
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