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RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 1:39:22 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf196
You are grasping at straws arent you?


No, JLF, I'm using the figures that you have given, yourself. You did ask me to get my facts straight, didn't you?

Just to be clear, then, where I said, on the basis of the facts that you yourself presented ...

quote:


... 874,848 people were killed in both world wars, combined. Going on your average, it would have taken roughly 109 years for gun-related homicides to surpass the numbers of people killed in WW1 and WW2. Hmmm. Not too bad ... maybe.


... That was wrong, was it?



quote:

Yes, but your statement was "Americans killed by Americans with their own guns"


Sorry, you mean 'Yes, that was wrong' or 'Yes, that was right'? Which is it, JLF? My statement was not in fact "Americans killed by Americans with their own guns", it was "Americans killed Americans with their guns". There was no 'own' in my statement. Actually, I don't care about the issue of ownership and related issues of people having legally purchased their gun, or not. I only care about whether someone has a gun and is using it. That's what I meant when I used the phrase 'their guns'.

quote:


Your implication was that the numbers were far higher than they are.


No, it wasn't. That was your inference. I don't need to exaggerate the numbers of people killed by guns in the USA. To the average European the numbers of people shot and killed in the USA are shocking enough. No European would *need* to manipulate the figures to make them look worse. For one thing, they really, *really* are shocking enough on their own to us - entirely un-spun. For another, what the hell would we have to gain from exaggerating the figures? Europeans don't vote in your elections. We don't live in the USA. None of us is likely to get killed by some American lunatic toting a gun. What possible motive would we have to exaggerate claims about your gun deaths over there?

quote:


Also, it was implied that these were legal owners who were doing all the killing, again a false assumption.


No such implication was there, JLF. You just got all vigorous in inventing your straw man. I don't care - and I suspect most Europeans don't care - about the issue of legal versus illegal ownership of guns in the USA. The most striking thing we see is how people seem to get shot and killed a lot in the USA. That is all.

quote:


In fact, the whole of you non American know it alls seem to think that it is the legal guns in the US that are the problem, which it is not.


"Know it alls". Right.

Even with the best will in the world it gets kind of irritating when you lump all non Americans together, in rude, childish terms, JLF. You're not a teenager any more and I think you could be above that. I'm pretty certain that I don't know major things about American culture. I would appreciate it if you could accept the same about your knowledge of Europeans and their various cultures.

One little thing you might want to take on board is that WW1 pretty much destroyed our sensibilities, here, regarding guns, death, and a few other things. It was after this, in 1920, that GB enacted its strongest anti-gun laws. Most of our young men came back from WW1- obviously, the ones who'd not been killed by it - traumatised by that war. We'd seen enough people destroyed by guns. WW1 *industrialised* killing by guns - machine guns were used in the first, big way; there were tanks, there were huge, powerful cannons. It was a slaughter, on a scale out of all proportion to anything than the world had seen before.

People did not like guns here, after WW1. They were seen as ugly, nasty things. They had destroyed large proportions of young men across Europe.

Do you see? This is *not* about the puerile, inane, pig-ignorant bollocks that certain gunsters in America like to retail amongst themselves of 'freedom-loving, root'n, toot'n, American pioneers' versus 'Europeans who are acquiescent about state control (and, quite possibly, a bit effete and lily-livered, though let's avoid saying that in case we upset them)'.

I think that as a rough guide: in Europe, we simply don't like guns. They are ugly things. They destroy societies - they don't 'uphold' them in some way.


< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 10/10/2015 1:55:03 PM >

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RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 1:43:15 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

They'd be happy to see such a well-regulated militia.

Actually...their views on that have been cited in other threads.

Here's a few:

A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788



< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 10/10/2015 1:47:05 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 1:49:31 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer



"Know it alls". Right.

Even with the best will in the world it gets kind of irritating when you lump all non Americans together, in rude, childish terms, JLF. You're not a teenager any more and I think you could be above that. I'm pretty certain that I don't know major things about American culture. I would appreciate it if you could accept the same about your knowledge of Europeans and their various cultures.



Oh, like you non Americans saying similar things about American gun owners.

As for exaggerated numbers, you said the number of people killed "by Americans" was plenty exaggerated. What is worse, you continually defend the statement.

Hey, how about this shocker, once more, Mexico has stricter gun laws, only one gun store in the whole damn country and more mass shootings, massacres and gun violence over all than the US.

In Columbia, possession of a gun can get you a death sentence. Hasnt deterred the drug cartels in the slightest.

Why dont you folks give them some advice.

As I said, Peon, I will pay for you a first class trip to the US with first class lodging, meals the whole nine yards, and all you have to do is one thing, demonstrate how you would remove from guns from the possession of criminals.

The American Police cant do it, not without the help of a shit ton of federal troops, so how about you and some of your friends coming over and giving us a demonstration on just how it can be down, without turning an entire section of a large city into a war zone.

So, when you can prove a workable solution to the illegal guns in the US, Mexico and Columbia, then I will listen to you about the "Problem" of the legal guns.

Until then, take a long walk off a short pier.


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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 2:07:46 PM   
ifmaz


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Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

They'd be happy to see such a well-regulated militia.

Actually...their views on that have been cited in other threads.

Here's a few:

A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788


Let us also keep in mind the meaning of "well-regulated".

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it. -- Constitution.org.


(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 2:09:15 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:




As for exaggerated numbers, you said the number of people killed "by Americans" was plenty exaggerated. What is worse, you continually defend the statement.


Crap. Actually, that statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would I want to say that the number of people killed by americans was 'plenty exaggerated'? What statement do you think I have 'continually defended' and which you don't like? This is just mindless fuming, JLF - against a figment of your own imagination.

quote:


Hey, how about this shocker, once more, Mexico has stricter gun laws, only one gun store in the whole damn country and more mass shootings, massacres and gun violence over all than the US.


Strewth. Seriously, you want to compare the USA to Mexico? Can you not see why I've not taken any notice of that comparison so far?

quote:

As I said, Peon, I will pay for you a first class trip to the US with first class lodging, meals the whole nine yards, and all you have to do is one thing, demonstrate how you would remove from guns from the possession of criminals.


Hang on ... perhaps I'm not up with the details. Were all those kids who've done mass-killings in schools in the USA convicted criminals? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they were, were they?
.
quote:


Until then, take a long walk off a short pier.


Oh come on, JLF. You're old enough to have grown a beard - and a grey one, to boot. Grow up.

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RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 2:14:16 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected.

...and school massacres are an excellent example of something that's NOT "in proper working order," "calibrated correctly," or "functioning as expected."

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 2:27:15 PM   
ifmaz


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Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected.

...and school massacres are an excellent example of something that's NOT "in proper working order," "calibrated correctly," or "functioning as expected."


Yes, they are an example of a subset of the populace that is, mentally speaking, not in proper working order.

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RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 2:48:27 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		...and hence, sensible countries have sensible gun laws, just as in other areas.

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 2:51:31 PM   
ifmaz


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Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

...and hence, sensible countries have sensible gun laws, just as in other areas.


Again, which countries are you referring to?

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 3:01:24 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Look. I'm not parsing point by point with you.

1) ALL other civilized countries have gun control laws -- and far fewer gun fatalities. No point arguing country by country law by law -- that can happen when we're decided WHICH laws are best, not WHETHER we should have them.

2) Parse the numbers anyway you wish -- once you're done, reality, Trumped-Up Obama-Fear is selling guns, and has been, since 2008, and by very large margins.

THAT'S what the discussion is about -- not the silly side quibbling.


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RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 3:07:04 PM   
ifmaz


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Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Look. I'm not parsing point by point with you.

1) ALL other civilized countries have gun control laws -- and far fewer gun fatalities. No point arguing country by country law by law -- that can happen when we're decided WHICH laws are best, not WHETHER we should have them.

2) Parse the numbers anyway you wish -- once you're done, reality, Trumped-Up Obama-Fear is selling guns, and has been, since 2008, and by very large margins.

THAT'S what the discussion is about -- not the silly side quibbling.




You keep saying "other civilized countries and "laws". Which countries and which laws are you referring to specifically?

Additionally, all you have been able to do is show that a record number of firearms are being sold, which you have somehow linked to the NRA or Obama using fear to sell firearms.

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RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 3:38:55 PM   
MercTech


Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		It isn't trumped up Obama fear but a collection of rabid confiscatory legislators that keep trying to legislate nationwide controls that might be appropriate for an overcrowded crime ridden urban area on the rest of the country.

http://www.propublica.org/article/fact-checking-feinstein-on-the-assault-weapons-ban

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2q4UJPgS5Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXIW1GKAvMM

The use of myths and flawed statistics fuels the movement to criminalize firearm owners.
http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/quotes-on-gun-control/

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 4:13:42 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Look. I'm not parsing point by point with you.

1) ALL other civilized countries have gun control laws -- and far fewer gun fatalities. No point arguing country by country law by law -- that can happen when we're decided WHICH laws are best, not WHETHER we should have them.

2) Parse the numbers anyway you wish -- once you're done, reality, Trumped-Up Obama-Fear is selling guns, and has been, since 2008, and by very large margins.

THAT'S what the discussion is about -- not the silly side quibbling.




You keep saying "other civilized countries and "laws". Which countries and which laws are you referring to specifically?

Additionally, all you have been able to do is show that a record number of firearms are being sold, which you have somehow linked to the NRA or Obama using fear to sell firearms.


Pick one. Any one.

And OK...so what's YOUR theory on sales doubling since Obama took office?

Hell, even Bama is on board with that one.

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 4:27:26 PM   
ifmaz


Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Pick one. Any one.

And OK...so what's YOUR theory on sales doubling since Obama took office?

Hell, even Bama is on board with that one.


As you are unable or unwilling to cite a country and/or law, lets discuss Mexico, where civilian ownership of firearms is illegal. Please explain how the firearms laws in Mexico have curbed firearm-related deaths.

I don't have a theory on why sales have doubled during Obama's administration.

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RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 4:46:04 PM   
MercTech


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Status: offline 		I have to wonder if the increase inn firearms sales correlates with a lack of confidence in government.

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 4:49:10 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		No, its obama derangement gone wild.
Oregon shooters mama got so many guns cos...obama.

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 4:55:18 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

I have to wonder if the increase inn firearms sales correlates with a lack of confidence in government.


Could also be the perceived increase of terrorist attacks, the militarization of local police forces, the increase in general crime. Perhaps it's simply affordability: AR15s cost less now than they did a few years ago.

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 4:57:04 PM   
ifmaz


Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

No, its obama derangement gone wild.
Oregon shooters mama got so many guns cos...obama.


Obligatory "thanks, Obama!" missing.

If Obama is responsible for the increase in firearm sales, does that also make him responsible for the firearm-related homicides?

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 5:06:16 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Absolutely. If its not obama its the dems and libs

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: America’s Gun Madness, as Seen From Europe - 10/10/2015 5:26:42 PM   
blnymph


Posts: 1598
Joined: 11/13/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


You keep saying "other civilized countries and "laws". Which countries and which laws are you referring to specifically?



just in case any of you do really not know about those laws in other countries - and for those who want to know ...

look here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation


easily done btw - there are those things called search engines ...

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 120
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