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The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 6:49:26 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Status: offline 		Just how ironic is it that our worlds two largest religions that promote peace are constantly at war with each other?

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 6:54:24 PM   
michaelGA2


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Status: offline 		they're not getting enough money in the collection plate on Subday so they've got to vent...LOL

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 6:58:24 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Fangs, didn't Clinton "make peace" over there a few years ago like he "made peace" in N. Ireland?

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 7:07:32 PM   
LotusSong


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Status: offline 		If it weren't for religons, we wouldn't have wars.



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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 7:15:44 PM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

If it weren't for religons, we wouldn't have wars.




How do you explain WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, the War of 1812, the Civil War ?

I am not even sure which two religions the OP is referring to.
Judiasm and Islam? Christianity and Islam ? In either of these cases, *Islam* is the common denomonator, and is it really Islam or is it radical fringes? Or is it rivaling factions of Islam? Or is it the long standing Islamic tribal infighting?

                     mbmbn

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 7:15:51 PM   
RedRedWine


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Status: offline 		Opinion wise I think maybe we would still have war. Religion always seems to be brought up in war, but many times it's just an excuse. Land has always brought up war. And so on and so forth. If not religion, than greed would make war.

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 7:27:55 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

If it weren't for religons, we wouldn't have wars.




How do you explain WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, the War of 1812, the Civil War ?

I am not even sure which two religions the OP is referring to.
Judiasm and Islam? Christianity and Islam ? In either of these cases, *Islam* is the common denomonator, and is it really Islam or is it radical fringes? Or is it rivaling factions of Islam? Or is it the long standing Islamic tribal infighting?

                    mbmbn


mbmbn, I see Islam, and the middle east overall, as being a good century or century and a half behind on the evolutionary scale. (Of course there are exceptions) There are large and equally spiteful sections in the Bible as there is the Qur'an, but most of Christiandom has "seen past" those parts, and more or less have eschewed the religious violence.
 
But, as others have pointed out, hate and war don't need no stinkin' religion to kick things off.

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 7:28:06 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
Just how ironic is it that our worlds two largest religions that promote peace are constantly at war with each other?


Neither Christianity nor Islam have ever "promoted peace."  They've both talked a lot of bullshit about peace, but when push comes to shove, they've always been in there pushing and shoving with the best of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
If it weren't for religons, we wouldn't have wars.


I must respectfully disagree with this statement as well.  Most modern wars, particularly the big, brutal, bloody ones are about Nationalism and Economics.

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 7:35:58 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
mbmbn, I see Islam, and the middle east overall, as being a good century or century and a half behind on the evolutionary scale. (Of course there are exceptions) There are large and equally spiteful sections in the Bible as there is the Qur'an, but most of Christiandom has "seen past" those parts, and more or less have eschewed the religious violence.
 
But, as others have pointed out, hate and war don't need no stinkin' religion to kick things off.


Actually, Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity.  Back about 600 years ago, Christians were killing people over whether women could be priests and whether Christ owned his own clothes.  Religions need time to mature... or get decadent, depending on one's point of view. 



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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 7:38:46 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

Just how ironic is it that our worlds two largest religions that promote peace are constantly at war with each other?


You mean Islam and Hinduism?  Or it is Christianity and Communism.  Hell, it doesn't take two different religions, some of the bloodiest wars are between fractions of the same religion.  Look at all the trouble old Martin Luther stirred up.  I lost my last religious innocence watching two branches of Buddism slug it out with lengths of rebar over who would get to build a temple on a give piece of property.



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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 7:48:43 PM   
maybemaybenot


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I would tend to agree with you on the evolutionary scale. Where I think the difference lies < modern day> between Christianity, Judiasm vs Islam is that generally speaking Chritianity is  *one * religion, as is Judiasm. Meaning that altho there are differing denominations or sects, they generally agree on the core principles  of the religion. Islam, however is fragmented. It is not simply a religion with differing sects/denomination, you must factor in the differing cultural aspects of the tribes. Each has adopted their own and sometimes very opposing view of Islam. And many have re created the Qur'an to suit their own agenda.

                 mbmbn


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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 7:52:58 PM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

[Hell, it doesn't take two different religions, some of the bloodiest wars are between fractions of the same religion. 


Well said JohnWarren !
Hope you are enjoying the Cape this week. You certainly got a scorcher of a week to spend with a nice ocean breeze.

                         mbmbn

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 8:32:34 PM   
jojoluvr


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Status: offline 		i would have to disagree about christianity being "one" religion -- i disagree quite profoundly with many christians about the "core" beliefs.  while i recognize that they consider themselves christian as much as i do, it is too much of a stretch to see it as one faith.  some christians believe authority lies within the church; others believe it lies within the bible (just to name 2 options).  some christians focus on the work of the spirit; others focus on the god of creation.  some christians have a low christology (focus on jesus' humanity); other have a high christology (focus on his divinity).  there is an illusion that that christianity is one -- but it never has been really -- even before the 95 theses on the castle door.  the cultural practices and range of beliefs held by those who call themselves christian is vast....  those who try to make it one often really just want the rest of the christian world to jump on their bandwagon -- whatever it may be...certainly all christians use (or re-create, as you suggest about the quran for muslims) the bible to promote their own agenda, as we have for 2000 years....

i would say that the 3 major branches of judaism represent, for the most part, 3 different faiths as well -- the orthodox and the reformed are certainly worlds apart in what they believe, how they live, etc.  presenting islam as the only one that is fractured or self-contradictory is disingenuous at best...

jo

< Message edited by jojoluvr -- 7/17/2006 8:33:13 PM >

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/17/2006 10:08:28 PM   
juliaoceania


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Pat Robertson.. hmmm.. lets hope he doesn't pray up more storms to punish us heathens with.

For those Christians unfamiliar with the use of Christianity to justify war in recent history I recomend

The Ambivalence of the Sacred
Religion, Violence, and Reconciliation
Carnegie Commission on Preventing Deadly Conflict
Carnegie Corporation of New York
By:
R. Scott Appleby
http://wwics.si.edu/subsites/ccpdc/pubs/apple/frame.htm

I think the whole text is online. He goes into the reasons for religious extremism in both Christianity and Islam. He is an expert on the subject. I read this book in an Anthropology and Religion theory course.. highly recommend for those who want to learn about the subject

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/17/2006 10:10:08 PM >

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 12:46:33 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		One just has to look at the origins of god. He was not a loving god, he was a vengeful, spiteful and hateful god that was happy to order genocide so his people could have the promised land. The other side had the same vicious gods. Now if you have one god, everyone says it must be the same god and it largely is. God hasn't changed, he is still vengeful, spiteful and hateful and still believes in genocide. It's all in the bible. A great airport novel but a lousy book to base morality and a way of life on.

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 12:56:57 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Thinking about it, if god was human and he is, since he is a human invention, we would have him locked up for being a danger to society.

The fact that we believe in such a diety just shows how prinitive humans really are.

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 1:08:46 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Wars are fought over Religion, Greed, Hate, Revenge and Envy. In enough cases reoginal wars are encouraged and kept going by the third man.. The Arms Dealer. The longer the conflict the more weapons and munitions he will sell. he cares not the cost in pain, suffering and lives.

In all the religions and all the deities I have studied, the deity tends to be agreeable for the followers to wage a war in defense of lives and beliefs. Islam is not the only religion which venerated martyers. An eye for an eye is not restricted to the followers of the Old Testament. Turning the other cheek is not a universal tenent. It is reasonble to a limited degree. Humans are a hunting and combative species with a strong streak of violence just below the surface. Those religions which ignore all this and preach passiiveness do set their follows up for abuse, pain. loss and death. Passiveness need to be balanced with the ability nd willingness to take whar ever action is necessary for the preservation of love and community.


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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 7:17:31 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jojoluvr

i would have to disagree about christianity being "one" religion -- i disagree quite profoundly with many christians about the "core" beliefs.  while i recognize that they consider themselves christian as much as i do, it is too much of a stretch to see it as one faith.  some christians believe authority lies within the church; others believe it lies within the bible (just to name 2 options).  some christians focus on the work of the spirit; others focus on the god of creation.  some christians have a low christology (focus on jesus' humanity); other have a high christology (focus on his divinity).  there is an illusion that that christianity is one -- but it never has been really -- even before the 95 theses on the castle door.  the cultural practices and range of beliefs held by those who call themselves christian is vast....  those who try to make it one often really just want the rest of the christian world to jump on their bandwagon -- whatever it may be...certainly all christians use (or re-create, as you suggest about the quran for muslims) the bible to promote their own agenda, as we have for 2000 years....

i would say that the 3 major branches of judaism represent, for the most part, 3 different faiths as well -- the orthodox and the reformed are certainly worlds apart in what they believe, how they live, etc.  presenting islam as the only one that is fractured or self-contradictory is disingenuous at best...

jo


Maybe I was too vague in my earlier post. My use of the word core is that we all pretty much accept the Bible, as the handbook of our given religion. As Judiam does with the Torah. And in Christianity that Jesus is viewed as the savior. Yes, each sect/denomination may interpret/practice
differently. But at the end of the day there is no arguement on the sacredness of the Bible/Torah.  The disagreements come with interpretation/practice.
In contrast, Islam has  a big difference.
Muhammad is the prophet of that religion and within the different sects/tribes etc there is no disagreement. But a big difference is  in the succesion, which "fragments" things, IMO. Shi'ite Muslims reject the first three successors of Muhmmad and have taken the fourth succesor, Ali, Mohmmads son in law as the rightful successor. While Sunnis accept the first three, leaving Ali the fourth successor. Seems to me that if you have one prophet claiming it's successor x 3 and  some agree with the original Prophet and others reject and pick the fourth, there is a much bigger fragmentation than how a Catholic or Baptist practices their religion. Maybe it's just me.
I still maintain the issue of the differing tribes adds to the  mix, but that is my opinion. You have yours.
If you see me, or my words as disingenuous, so be it. The topic of Islam and the problems with in Islam itself is not something I created and has been studied for many years.
Part of the Middle East Peace process has been trying to unite the Arab/Muslim/Islamic world. The fact that this has been a tedious and exhausting project at best, proves to me that some of the problems lie within the Islamic world itself.

                      mbmbn

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 7:56:27 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Christianity, Islam and Judaism all have the same problem. They have the same god.

As Noam Chomsky pointed out, “The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history”

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 8:03:43 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		It's never been about Religion. That's just the cover, the excuse. It's about mis-used power, inability to resolve conflict, greed, and huge, yet fragile human egos. I will add a caveat to this by stating that my personal opinion is that every nation has a right to defend itself against attack.

I do find it ironic, though, that the U.S. demands (not requests) non-proliferation of nuclear missiles (a good thing and yet - ) we have a goodly supply of them ourselves and are prohibiting other nations from having so much as one or two. No wonder they (Pakistan, N. Korea, Iran...) are miffed. They feel left out, cheated and left behind in the game of "protecting what's theirs". 

Granted, we've promised to not use ours, but I have to question why we've determined the war in Iraq is primarily best fought using on the ground, guerilla type tactics of defense, yet keep insisting the U.S. produce and purchase more and more aviational, and generally superfluous war equipment every year. This production fixation, and not reducing our supply of weapons at all, doesn't exactly scream: Committed to peace. We could make some effort in that arena, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. 

But - I am risking a rant and want to have a good day, so I will stop now. Just my two cents.

- Susan  

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/18/2006 8:14:39 AM >

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