RE: Nobody wants to take your guns.

RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 6:26:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Give it a little more time and a few more children brutally murdered and I and my like will have your guns… if you don’t submit to the coming new stringent gun laws. Laws brought on by your obstinate views on reasonable gun safety. Butch Interesting that "you and your like" will have all the firearms. What then? Perhaps your other word choice, submit, is telling. But anyway. Do you have any idea what kind of drastic change eliminating part of the Bill of Rights would be? Because I don't think you understand what you're casually, almost flippantly, suggesting. But let me know when you have 38 states who agree the Bill of Rights is modifiable and certain (perhaps all?) rights are revokable. Then let me know who will be kicking in the doors of some 120 million homes to collect these firearms because I'm pretty sure the ACLU will frown upon such a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment, nevermind the general "molon labe" attitude in much of the firearm community. EDIT: As BamaD pointed out, 38 states would be needed. I was, and remain, utterly dumbfounded at the suggestion to begin unravelling the Bill of Rights. Actually, the Bill of Rights *IS* modifiable. Those ten amendments can be changed and removed the same as the other seventeen. When enough people get tired of the political bullshit of the NRA and its supporters; things will take place. Its not like most Americans would say much to the 3rd or 7th amendments being removed or modified. Most Americans do not know what the 3rd and 7th are defined. Do you? How would 38 states agree to a change in the 2nd? When the people are tired of the bullshit going on. Given that less and less people vote in elections, that might not be a tough sell in the coming years. After a few high profile mass shootings and maybe one or two 'uprisings' by conservative nutcakes; it will not be tough to sell the changes at all. But hey, the US Supreme Court already changed the spirit of the 2nd amendment (something those conservative Justices KNEW they could not do by law). Sooner or later, it'll be pointed out. Combined with everything else, it will not take a future US Supreme Court to change the rules back to their proper places.. Yep those evil justices read what the writters said and the idiots took their word for it's meaning over yours, what fools. And the trend in public opinion is going against you.

joether -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 6:41:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Is it really hard for you to be a mature, responsible, reasonable, rational adult? The basis of our disagreement is very simple. I beleive, and this is confirmed by the writters, that the 2nd is and individual right. Your position is simple, BamaD: Make guns easy to obtain and very accessible so that law breakers, criminals and terrorists can get them.....anywhere....anytime. Not a really good position given your party's twisted hateful, and paranoid viewpoints that produced 4/19/95. Now you want to convince Americans that you should have a gun? Why? Oh that's right there is some vague law that has some equally vague 'spirit of the law' that does not really state it clearly one way or another. Now, you are trying to convince Americans by brainwashing them with lies. Sort of like those WMD's in Iraq, or that Clinton was fully at fault for Benghazi. Yes, we have been tearing down the myths, lies, and bullshit. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You believe that it is a quid pro quo privilage created and agreed to by only one of the parties involved. All the rights to Americans are privileges, moron! Without the US Constitution, what are those amendments worth? We like to say that its a privilege to drive a car, because the right can be taken away if we break the law. Yet, if we break the law with firearms, they too can be taken away. Your political ideology removed people of their basic human rights; an then have the ego to bitch about needing a hunk of metal! If the 2nd was removed, it wouldn't be the first time an amendment was removed. Rights have about as much 'staying power' in our system of laws as privileges. Is it a 'privilege to vote' or 'a right to vote'? Because the conservatives have told me that if I show up to vote, I have to show a card that says I'm allowed to vote. Kinda of like buying beer; in my state, if you don't have the license, regardless of your age, your not getting the beer! They don't care if the blue labelled whiskey is younger then you are! If I have the right to vote, then I shouldn't need anything but myself to vote. quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You keep saying we need to find a middle ground but seriously is there a middle ground between it is a right and it isn't? Lets see, the gun controllers convince enough people to heavily restrict or ban firearms; you'll wish that some middle ground was reached. Between now and that moment in US History (which is quickly approaching), you have a moment in time to sit down, being an adult who is mature, intelligent, reasonable, responsible and rationale. To be taken seriously. That you have credibility to have your say and help define a better nation. The middle ground is not 'winner take all' or 'college football' (i.e. Zero Sum Politics). Its where different sides make deals. They understand the other's position on any number of subtopics under the main heading. They make a deals on a give and take system (something that has worked in the nation for hundreds of years now). Yes conservatives will give up stuff. Liberals will give up stuff. Moderates will give up stuff. That's the cost for not trusting one another. It'll be a heavy cost. No one will like it much. But everyone will know the political grouping that created the distrust in the first place: conservatives. You will pay a heavier price. To be frank and honest, I would rather no group have to take the heavier price from the problems created due to our collective inaction. But, your not going to understand that much less trust it! But your 'side' waits to long, BamaD, and you will not have a seat at that metaphorical table. In fact the more it waits, the less bargaining power you'll have. Your 'side' does more damage to itself the longer it waits while behaving like children.

MercTech -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 6:45:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Tell dear ol' Hilary to give up her Secret Service protection. Maybe then, I'll give a rat's ass about what she says about people giving up their weapons that they use for self defense. She couldn't give up the protection even if she wanted. Now that she is a valid candidate for the Office of the President, the Secret Service assigns agents to her. In fact, they do the same with Donald Trump. Can't trump afford his own henchmen? Seriously though, the Secret Service represent 'A well regulated militia....". Their purpose is to 'defend the free state'. We can't have a free state if our public officials are being killed by right wing gun nuts.... Before you say anything else...YOUR SIDE.....gave this nation 4/19/95. Just having a WTF moment on this. Whose side was Timothy McVeigh on when he set off bombs in retaliation for federal sharpshooters murdering a mother while she was holding her child? (Ruby Ridge Incident) I guess shoot first, serve warrant later, is as viable police tactic as bringing tanks to am arrest and burning out everyone that can't get out of a building. (Armed invasion of Branch Davidian compound in Waco) McVeigh was such a nut job that even the sovereign movement kicked him out.

joether -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 6:49:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Give it a little more time and a few more children brutally murdered and I and my like will have your guns… if you don’t submit to the coming new stringent gun laws. Laws brought on by your obstinate views on reasonable gun safety. Butch Interesting that "you and your like" will have all the firearms. What then? Perhaps your other word choice, submit, is telling. But anyway. Do you have any idea what kind of drastic change eliminating part of the Bill of Rights would be? Because I don't think you understand what you're casually, almost flippantly, suggesting. But let me know when you have 38 states who agree the Bill of Rights is modifiable and certain (perhaps all?) rights are revokable. Then let me know who will be kicking in the doors of some 120 million homes to collect these firearms because I'm pretty sure the ACLU will frown upon such a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment, nevermind the general "molon labe" attitude in much of the firearm community. EDIT: As BamaD pointed out, 38 states would be needed. I was, and remain, utterly dumbfounded at the suggestion to begin unravelling the Bill of Rights. Actually, the Bill of Rights *IS* modifiable. Those ten amendments can be changed and removed the same as the other seventeen. When enough people get tired of the political bullshit of the NRA and its supporters; things will take place. Its not like most Americans would say much to the 3rd or 7th amendments being removed or modified. Most Americans do not know what the 3rd and 7th are defined. Do you? How would 38 states agree to a change in the 2nd? When the people are tired of the bullshit going on. Given that less and less people vote in elections, that might not be a tough sell in the coming years. After a few high profile mass shootings and maybe one or two 'uprisings' by conservative nutcakes; it will not be tough to sell the changes at all. But hey, the US Supreme Court already changed the spirit of the 2nd amendment (something those conservative Justices KNEW they could not do by law). Sooner or later, it'll be pointed out. Combined with everything else, it will not take a future US Supreme Court to change the rules back to their proper places.. Yep those evil justices read what the writters said and the idiots took their word for it's meaning over yours, what fools. And the trend in public opinion is going against you. Public Opinion? Give it a few more massive shootings in the nation. Dozens more killed. Tens times that wounded. Each of those injured and killed have families. The writing stands on the wall of their living room in the form of a picture. When they realize that people like.....you.....are the reason for their misery; do you really think they'll care what your views are and aren't? You saw the Pew Research information. The big 'lead' the gun industry had before 2010 has greatly diminished. With politicians not being as afraid of the NRA as they once were; become embolden to do the work of The People rather than a tyrannical minority. Yes, you'll find public opinion shifts now that its not being threaten by those that would make laws easier for law breakers, criminals, and terrorists to freely obtain firearms.

ifmaz -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 7:04:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Your position is simple, BamaD: Make guns easy to obtain and very accessible so that law breakers, criminals and terrorists can get them.....anywhere....anytime. Not a really good position given your party's twisted hateful, and paranoid viewpoints that produced 4/19/95. ... All the rights to Americans are privileges, moron! ... I can see there's no use discussing things with you. I don't usually agree with climate change skeptics, but Kirata was right about you.

bounty44 -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 7:20:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether All the rights to Americans are privileges, moron! Without the US Constitution, what are those amendments worth? We like to say that its a privilege to drive a car, because the right can be taken away if we break the law. Yet, if we break the law with firearms, they too can be taken away. Your political ideology removed people of their basic human rights; an then have the ego to bitch about needing a hunk of metal! If the 2nd was removed, it wouldn't be the first time an amendment was removed. quote: "Unalienable rights are those which God gave to man at the Creation, once and for all. By definition, since God granted such rights, governments could not take them away. In America, this fundamental truth is recognized and enshrined in our nation's birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence: "[A]ll men are created equal...[and] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."" The Founding Fathers understood this principle and created a revolution in political theory by enacting, for the first time in history, a government specifically established to protect the rights that had been given to man by God. "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." "According to the Founders, unalienable rights belong to each person by virtue of the fact that man is made in God’s image, and is therefore endowed with certain attributes, powers, freedoms, and legal protections as part of his essence. These rights are thus inseparable -- or unalienable -- from each person individually and from the human race in general." http://www.conservapedia.com/Unalienable_rights priv·i·lege. [ˈpriv(ə)lij] NOUN 1.a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people: its difficult to understand your rambling so as to know if am actually addressing your nonsense---but it looks to me like there's a fundamental difference between a right and a privilege, and theres a good chance you are the moron for trying to lessen the former by conflating it with the latter. its a "privilege" to drive a car---that is, its a right granted to a particular group people of a certain age, knowledge, and skill. its not an unalienable right granted to us by god by virtue of our being human. I suppose we'll all look forward to your exposition as to how conservatives have "removed people of their basic human rights." and oh, in terms of voting, if you don't mind---tell me where you vote and i'll show up and vote in your name. afterall, we don't need a card to vote and since you don't want your ability to vote to be protected, no big deal right?

jlf1961 -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 7:26:35 PM)
Do you people even know how the "gun control" laws we have now even work, or more aptly, dont work? Let me spell it out for you guys for the god knows umptenth time. The back ground checks that you people wanted back when Brady was shot got passed. They are dependent on the NCIC database being up to date. The NCIC database is mandatory for FEDERAL agencies, but not, REPEAT NOT, for state and local. In other words, you people got what you wanted, failed to make sure the system that would make them work was mandatory, so local courts, law enforcement agencies, etc do not have to input the data on criminal records, court orders, etc that would keep some fucked up asshole that should not own a toy gun from buying a real gun that will let him go kill people. Had the gun control shitheaded morons paid attention and did the job right, the following mass shootings WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. Virginia Tech, Charleston South Carolina, and others. Want proof, read How They Got Their Guns Had the NCIC system been mandatory most of those people would have been red flagged and the shootings would have been stopped before they happened. You people do not grasp the fact that the NRA does not speak for all gun owners. The majority of us have been fighting to get the single most fucked up aspect of the the gun control law fixed. Or to put it another way, Joe Bourbon Drinking Shit gets his license permanently suspended in New York for too many DUI's. Thanks to the system, he cannot move to New Jersey or anywhere else and get a fucking drivers license, because that record follows him. Do you know why? Because MADD pushed for and got a nationwide database to prevent it. But the gun control dipshits wants to take away the rights of responsible Americans because they did not really stop and think about the system that would have made every fucking one of the gun control laws they have wanted in the past work was mandatory. For their fuck up, they want to blame everyone that owns a gun. And then you wonder why the gun owners dont support some of your better ideas? Jesus Christ, its because the gun control lobby couldnt poor piss out of a boot with the instructions written on the heel. You want gun control laws that will work, you got em, if you people would have finished the job in the first place, they would have prevented 9 out of 10 mass shootings, and the ones they would not have prevented werent because the jack ass shooter bought the gun legally, it was because the guy killed the legal owner of the guns and started his killing spree with a parent. You people want to take guns out of the hands of the 99.999999% of the gun owning population that are not a danger to the rest of the public, but, and here is the kicker, you people scream about the civil rights of some drug dealer who got a mandatory 25 to life for selling drugs near a school. Before you take the guns from responsible people, why dont you idiots fix the freaking system you put in place first? The approach you guys are using makes about as much sense as using 20 pounds of explosives to eliminate a inconvenient bee hive. Try common sense approach, you might be surprised at the support you would get from gun owners. Keep going the way you are going and you are going to find your support falling into the toilet, which, according to PEW, and half a dozen other pollsters is happening anyway, even with the damage that people like Ted Nugent has caused. Look at the law passed in LA, mandatory gun safes or trigger locks, not a complete ban. Jesus, I dont keep the bb gun I got when I was 10 where my 3 year old could get it, and the freaking air seals in it are shot to hell and gone making it useless.

bounty44 -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 7:27:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz quote: ORIGINAL: joether Your position is simple, BamaD: Make guns easy to obtain and very accessible so that law breakers, criminals and terrorists can get them.....anywhere....anytime. Not a really good position given your party's twisted hateful, and paranoid viewpoints that produced 4/19/95. ... All the rights to Americans are privileges, moron! ... I can see there's no use discussing things with you. I don't usually agree with climate change skeptics, but Kirata was right about you. I learned that quite awhile ago...oh if only we all would! maybe he'd go away...

kdsub -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 7:41:08 PM)
quote: dont work? Then lets change them... or are you OK with what is happening in our country these last few brutal years? Butch

Kirata -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 7:46:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 quote: ORIGINAL: joether All the rights to Americans are privileges, moron! quote: "Unalienable rights are those which God gave to man at the Creation, once and for all. By definition, since God granted such rights, governments could not take them away. In America, this fundamental truth is recognized and enshrined in our nation's birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence: "[A]ll men are created equal...[and] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. However, to assert the existence of unalienable Natural Rights doesn't require a belief in a Creator God. The Declaration sources them to Natural Law and Nature's God (definitively neither Jewish nor Christian). The concept of Natural Rights goes back at least as far as the Stoics. K.

BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 7:54:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Give it a little more time and a few more children brutally murdered and I and my like will have your guns… if you don’t submit to the coming new stringent gun laws. Laws brought on by your obstinate views on reasonable gun safety. Butch Interesting that "you and your like" will have all the firearms. What then? Perhaps your other word choice, submit, is telling. But anyway. Do you have any idea what kind of drastic change eliminating part of the Bill of Rights would be? Because I don't think you understand what you're casually, almost flippantly, suggesting. But let me know when you have 38 states who agree the Bill of Rights is modifiable and certain (perhaps all?) rights are revokable. Then let me know who will be kicking in the doors of some 120 million homes to collect these firearms because I'm pretty sure the ACLU will frown upon such a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment, nevermind the general "molon labe" attitude in much of the firearm community. EDIT: As BamaD pointed out, 38 states would be needed. I was, and remain, utterly dumbfounded at the suggestion to begin unravelling the Bill of Rights. Actually, the Bill of Rights *IS* modifiable. Those ten amendments can be changed and removed the same as the other seventeen. When enough people get tired of the political bullshit of the NRA and its supporters; things will take place. Its not like most Americans would say much to the 3rd or 7th amendments being removed or modified. Most Americans do not know what the 3rd and 7th are defined. Do you? How would 38 states agree to a change in the 2nd? When the people are tired of the bullshit going on. Given that less and less people vote in elections, that might not be a tough sell in the coming years. After a few high profile mass shootings and maybe one or two 'uprisings' by conservative nutcakes; it will not be tough to sell the changes at all. But hey, the US Supreme Court already changed the spirit of the 2nd amendment (something those conservative Justices KNEW they could not do by law). Sooner or later, it'll be pointed out. Combined with everything else, it will not take a future US Supreme Court to change the rules back to their proper places.. Yep those evil justices read what the writters said and the idiots took their word for it's meaning over yours, what fools. And the trend in public opinion is going against you. Public Opinion? Give it a few more massive shootings in the nation. Dozens more killed. Tens times that wounded. Each of those injured and killed have families. The writing stands on the wall of their living room in the form of a picture. When they realize that people like.....you.....are the reason for their misery; do you really think they'll care what your views are and aren't? You saw the Pew Research information. The big 'lead' the gun industry had before 2010 has greatly diminished. With politicians not being as afraid of the NRA as they once were; become embolden to do the work of The People rather than a tyrannical minority. Yes, you'll find public opinion shifts now that its not being threaten by those that would make laws easier for law breakers, criminals, and terrorists to freely obtain firearms. The victims families in Oregon not only didn't jump on your bandwagon, thec basicly told Obama to shove it when he tried to politicize it.

BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 7:58:07 PM)
FR Joether Rights are what you can inherently do. Privilages are something that the government lets you do. You Should know that the Constitution did not grant rights, it recognized and enshrined them.

Kirata -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 8:22:49 PM)
You're right, of course. NICS needs to be not only fixed, but given its allocated funding. Absent that, the irony of gun-control advocates screaming for more background checks is little short of stunning. The only people who seem to care whether or not NICS actually works are law-abiding gun-owners. It's almost as if the gun-control crowd only wants laws that are certain to fail, to give them an excuse for... gee whiz, I wonder what. Another oddity that always catches my attention is how loudly the usual suspects scream when some white kids get shot. The idea of doing something to stem the slaughter of literally hundreds of black kids year in and year out, and not a few whites in the bargain, by enacting stiffer penalties for illegal possession and increasing our efforts to find and prosecute traffickers, is either ignored or met with a jocular "difference of opinion." K.

BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 8:41:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: dont work? Then lets change them... or are you OK with what is happening in our country these last few brutal years? Butch That is what we want to do, but the anti gun nuts insist on new laws restricting, not the criminal element, but the rest of us.

BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 8:43:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata You're right, of course. NICS needs to be not only fixed, but given its allocated funding. Absent that, the irony of gun-control advocates screaming for more background checks is little short of stunning. The only people who seem to care whether or not NICS actually works are law-abiding gun-owners. It's almost as if the gun-control crowd only wants laws that are certain to fail, to give them an excuse for... gee whiz, I wonder what. Another oddity that always catches my attention is how loudly the usual suspects scream when some white kids get shot. The idea of doing something to stem the slaughter of literally hundreds of black kids year in and year out, and not a few whites in the bargain, by enacting stiffer penalties for illegal possession and increasing our efforts to find and prosecute traffickers, is either ignored or met with a jocular "difference of opinion." K. And a dismissive proclimation that we don't want to do anything.

kdsub -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 9:36:19 PM)
But the rest of us are killing our children... what about those?

BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 9:43:57 PM)
Your position is simple, BamaD: Make guns easy to obtain and very accessible so that law breakers, criminals and terrorists can get them.....anywhere....anytime. Not a really good position given your party's twisted hateful, and paranoid viewpoints that produced 4/19/95. You haven't been paying attention. I want the background system fixed. I want the book thrown at people who misuse firearms. "My party" since I am not a member of any party that is silly. I assume you mean the GOP but that to is wrong, nobody in the GOP supported McVeigh, we all thought he should be executed like the animal he was. In case you didn't notice he didn't use a gun.

BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 9:45:51 PM)
Now, you are trying to convince Americans by brainwashing them with lies. I try to get us back to a more civil conversation and you come back with this crap.

BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 9:48:15 PM)
All the rights to Americans are privileges, moron! And this where you display incrediblel ignorance while throwing in a totally uncalled for insult.

ifmaz -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/28/2015 10:15:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: dont work? Then lets change them... or are you OK with what is happening in our country these last few brutal years? Butch Are you referring to the gradual erosion of rights or are you referring to the mentally ill murdering others?

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