RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 12:56:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

dont work?


Then lets change them... or are you OK with what is happening in our country these last few brutal years?

Butch



Butch, did you even read the article I cited and linked to? No gun owner is okay with what is going on when some emotionally unstable individual goes out and kills a bunch of people at a school, church, mall or movie theater.

But the difference between responsible gun owners and gun control advocates is that we at least know why the emotionally unstable individual was allowed to buy a gun when the laws are there to prevent that from happening.

The problem is that you and the rest of the gun control bunch wont fucking listen, even when we agree there is a fucking problem.




bounty44 -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 5:00:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

All the rights to Americans are privileges, moron!

quote:

"Unalienable rights are those which God gave to man at the Creation, once and for all. By definition, since God granted such rights, governments could not take them away. In America, this fundamental truth is recognized and enshrined in our nation's birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence: "[A]ll men are created equal...[and] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


However, to assert the existence of unalienable Natural Rights doesn't require a belief in a Creator God. The Declaration sources them to Natural Law and Nature's God (definitively neither Jewish nor Christian). The concept of Natural Rights goes back at least as far as the Stoics.

K.



ive got a passage in one of my history books concerning stoicism, that although it doesn't touch directly on what you just said, I nevertheless like:

"...only the virtuous life is free, for it alone is within people's power to achieve, and it alone lets people be truly themselves. whatever depends, therefore, on external circumstances---health for example, or worldly success, or sensual pleasure---is no essential part of the human good. in fact, dependence on external circumstances alienates the person from himself. it is a sickness of the soul...this outlook led the stoics to the view that differences in rank and status are secondary. all persons are ultimately equal, fellow citizens with one another..."




mnottertail -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 6:38:21 AM)

That 'party' has long since vanished from the face of the earth.




kdsub -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 8:55:42 AM)

My friend I do listen... if you had been around to read my posts you would see where I have stated that we need new laws with the input of gun owners.. remember i am one as well... There is just no way around it... the laws today are not working... they need to be changed... Saying we have laws that are not enforced is not a viable argument.

Here in Missouri local law enforcement can be fined and imprisoned for enforcing some federal law... other out state law enforcement refuse for political reasons to enforce gun laws... this type of crap needs to change.

I want responsible gun owners to help come up with strong enforceable gun laws that will reduce stolen firearms and make careless owners responsible for crime or injury directly related to the improper storage or use of their weapons...And keep guns away from the insane as much as possible.

Is this too much to ask to help save the lives of hundreds of children and the victims of stolen weapons carelessly secured?

Butch




BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 9:06:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

My friend I do listen... if you had been around to read my posts you would see where I have stated that we need new laws with the input of gun owners.. remember i am one as well... There is just no way around it... the laws today are not working... they need to be changed... Saying we have laws that are not enforced is not a viable argument.

Here in Missouri local law enforcement can be fined and imprisoned for enforcing some federal law... other out state law enforcement refuse for political reasons to enforce gun laws... this type of crap needs to change.

I want responsible gun owners to help come up with strong enforceable gun laws that will reduce stolen firearms and make careless owners responsible for crime or injury directly related to the improper storage or use of their weapons...And keep guns away from the insane as much as possible.

Is this too much to ask to help save the lives of hundreds of children and the victims of stolen weapons carelessly secured?

Butch

I understand your intent and your motivation. But as both Kirata and I have pointed out and linked for you there are less accidents with firearms that with almost any other "household hazzard" and that unlike the others firearms accidents are going down, this in spite of record ownership. I also believe that criminal negligence laws cover those that are accurately discribed as such. I firmly believe that it is morally reprehensable to penalize a person for being the victim of a crime, which holding someone responsible for the actions of a person who has stolen their firearm is. Fianally saying that we have the laws in place but aren't enforceing them is not to say nothing can or should be done. It is saying we should enforce the laws we have before we start writing a bunch of new laws.




LadyPact -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 9:56:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
My friend I do listen... if you had been around to read my posts you would see where I have stated that we need new laws with the input of gun owners.. remember i am one as well... There is just no way around it... the laws today are not working... they need to be changed... Saying we have laws that are not enforced is not a viable argument.

Here in Missouri local law enforcement can be fined and imprisoned for enforcing some federal law... other out state law enforcement refuse for political reasons to enforce gun laws... this type of crap needs to change.

I want responsible gun owners to help come up with strong enforceable gun laws that will reduce stolen firearms and make careless owners responsible for crime or injury directly related to the improper storage or use of their weapons...And keep guns away from the insane as much as possible.

Is this too much to ask to help save the lives of hundreds of children and the victims of stolen weapons carelessly secured?

Butch

Butch,

With all due respect, it doesn't always appear that way.

If we all want to be reasonable about this. Those of us who have different opinions on gun ownership than you... We're not sitting at home and start jumping up and down with joy when something horrible happens. I know you think better of that of people like me.

We need stronger laws regarding strawman purchases. Getting off with a year or two is not sufficient, in my opinion. If a person has helped to facilitate an illegal purchase, they go up for the same amount of time behind bars as the person who points and/or pulls the trigger. (We do this with other crimes. We can do it for this, too.)

Expand and improve the background check system. (This could be done easily by adding an additional fee with court costs.) You committed a felony? You have forfeited your right to a firearm. Put the DV cases in the same category. If you have assaulted, stalked, threatened, or harassed someone and it fits the DV area, your access to firearms should be removed.

Storage. You're only going to get me on this half-way, Butch. If you have attempted proper storage, we shouldn't treat it the same as buying something to hand over to another person. My car is in the driveway right now. If somebody hotwires it and steals it, that's different than me giving the keys to someone who is intoxicated.

Rather than careless owners, let's go after the illegal owners first.





ifmaz -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 11:16:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

My friend I do listen... if you had been around to read my posts you would see where I have stated that we need new laws with the input of gun owners.. remember i am one as well... There is just no way around it... the laws today are not working... they need to be changed... Saying we have laws that are not enforced is not a viable argument.

Here in Missouri local law enforcement can be fined and imprisoned for enforcing some federal law... other out state law enforcement refuse for political reasons to enforce gun laws... this type of crap needs to change.

I want responsible gun owners to help come up with strong enforceable gun laws that will reduce stolen firearms and make careless owners responsible for crime or injury directly related to the improper storage or use of their weapons...And keep guns away from the insane as much as possible.

Is this too much to ask to help save the lives of hundreds of children and the victims of stolen weapons carelessly secured?

Butch


Do you have any sources detailing how many stolen firearms are used in crimes, or how many firearms are stored "carelessly"? You seem to bring this up often as if it's some sort of pandemic. Perhaps the government isn't coming for our guns but the thieves are.

While everyone agrees firearms should not fall into the hands of anyone intent on harming others, how exactly would a law regarding the storage of firearms change anything? Laws don't physically prevent anything, they simply outline the consequences following (or not following) an action. Let us pretend, for the sake of argument, the federal guidelines on firearm storage are identical to those of California (warning: legalese). Taking a proactive approach, because laws like these can only penalize after the fact, should law enforcement enter the private homes of firearm owners to ensure firearms are safely stored, would that not raise severe 4th Amendment concerns at the very least? If one is to penalize owners who "carelessly" store firearms, what incentive is there for reporting the theft?

Additionally, you agree that we have unenforced laws yet you would like to see more laws. If we don't enforce the laws we have, what variable suddenly changes with additional laws? Would law enforcement, whom you said sometimes refuse to enforce laws due to "political reasons", suddenly start enforcing laws stricter than the ones they do not already enforce? You say Missouri law enforcement "can be fined and imprisoned for enforcing some federal law", which is, arguably, acceptable per the 10th Amendment.

Out of curiosity, how do you store your firearms?




jlf1961 -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 11:17:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

My friend I do listen... if you had been around to read my posts you would see where I have stated that we need new laws with the input of gun owners.. remember i am one as well... There is just no way around it... the laws today are not working... they need to be changed... Saying we have laws that are not enforced is not a viable argument.

Here in Missouri local law enforcement can be fined and imprisoned for enforcing some federal law... other out state law enforcement refuse for political reasons to enforce gun laws... this type of crap needs to change.

I want responsible gun owners to help come up with strong enforceable gun laws that will reduce stolen firearms and make careless owners responsible for crime or injury directly related to the improper storage or use of their weapons...And keep guns away from the insane as much as possible.

Is this too much to ask to help save the lives of hundreds of children and the victims of stolen weapons carelessly secured?

Butch


Butch, the laws on the books would work, except that the same freaking people who want new laws do not want to fix the one thing that every damn gun law depends on, NCIC.

Why pass new laws if you dont fix the basic problem with the old ones, kinda like building a fence to keep the cows in after they have run off, dontcha think?




kdsub -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 2:27:11 PM)

I agree with you Ladypact in all except not holding careless owners accountable.

Butch




kdsub -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 2:28:18 PM)

Yes... I have posted them before with an example in my town.

Butch




BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 2:32:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes... I have posted them before with an example in my town.

Butch

And as pointed out repeatedly the national figures show a completely different picture.




kdsub -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 2:38:31 PM)

quote:

Butch, the laws on the books would work, except that the same freaking people who want new laws do not want to fix the one thing that every damn gun law depends on, NCIC.

Why pass new laws if you dont fix the basic problem with the old ones, kinda like building a fence to keep the cows in after they have run off, dontcha think?


Jeff because many state governments refuse to enforce the existing laws... This is why we need people like you and Bama to demand they be enforced... but even then the existing laws DO NOT hold careless owners responsible directly for those killed or injured by their carelessness.

In my city this year... remember my city has a population of 30,000.. ten firearms were taken from UNLOCKED vehicles... where do you suppose those weapons will end up... I can tell you... in the hands of criminals. If one of these weapons is found to be used in a crime I believe the careless gun owner should bear some responsibility. What responsibility is should be determined by the crime committed with their weapon. This penalty should be even more severe if their carelessness results in the death or injury to a child.

I do not pretend to have the answers but the laws as they are today are not working and we need a change... Just saying enforce what we have will not work.

Butch




BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 2:43:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Butch, the laws on the books would work, except that the same freaking people who want new laws do not want to fix the one thing that every damn gun law depends on, NCIC.

Why pass new laws if you dont fix the basic problem with the old ones, kinda like building a fence to keep the cows in after they have run off, dontcha think?


Jeff because many state governments refuse to enforce the existing laws... This is why we need people like you and Bama to demand they be enforced... but even then the existing laws DO NOT hold careless owners responsible directly for those killed or injured by their carelessness.

In my city this year... remember my city has a population of 30,000.. ten firearms were taken from UNLOCKED vehicles... where do you suppose those weapons will end up... I can tell you... in the hands of criminals. If one of these weapons is found to be used in a crime I believe the careless gun owner should bear some responsibility. What responsibility is should be determined by the crime committed with their weapon. This penalty should be even more severe if their carelessness results in the death or injury to a child.

I do not pretend to have the answers but the laws as they are today are not working and we need a change... Just saying enforce what we have will not work.

Butch

So you want to punish crime victims if what is stolen from them is used in a crime? If someone steals a car and uses it in a driveby shouldn't the car owner bear the same responsibility as the shooter if the car was unlocked?
You want to open a monsterous can of worms.




CreativeDominant -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 2:50:18 PM)

For JOETHER:
Several mass shootings this year have brought renewed attention to the issue of gun violence in America, and President Obama has again called for Congress to change the nation’s gun laws.

But the increased spotlight on guns does not reflect the overall gun violence trend in the country. Although most Americans think the number of gun crimes has risen, the U.S. gun homicide rate has actually stabilized somewhat in recent years, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of death certificate data collected by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Between 1993 and 2000, the gun homicide rate dropped by nearly half, from 7.0 homicides to 3.8 homicides per 100,000 people. Since then, the gun homicide rate has remained relatively flat. From 2010 to 2013, the most recent year data are available, the number of gun homicides has hovered between 11,000 and 12,000 per year.

By contrast, a significantly higher – and growing – number of gun deaths were by suicide than by homicide, and this has been true throughout the past two decades. For example, while the gun suicide rate has declined overall since 1993, in recent years it has risen, from 6.3 per 100,000 people in 2010 to 6.7 in 2013.

The nation’s overall gun death rate has declined 30% since 1993. This total includes homicides and suicides, in addition to a smaller number of fatal police shootings, accidental shooting deaths and those of undetermined intent. For example, in 2013 there were 467 fatal police shootings, up from 333 in 2009. (Government data on fatal police shootings are also collected and reported by the FBI, though the agency acknowledges there are discrepancies between federal and local law enforcement counts.)

The rate of nonfatal gun victimizations declined in a similar way to the gun death rate, with a large drop in the 1990s – 63% between 1993 and 2000. The decline since then has been more uneven. In 2014, there were 174.8 nonfatal violent gun victimizations per 100,000 people ages 12 and older.

Despite these trends, most U.S. adults think gun crimes have increased. In our 2013 survey, more than half (56%) of Americans said the number of gun crimes had gone up compared with 20 years ago. Another 26% said the number of gun crimes had remained the same, and just 12% said gun crimes had declined.

The public has been divided on the issue of gun ownership in recent years. In our July survey, 50% said it is more important to control gun ownership and 47% said it is more important to protect the right of Americans to own guns. Support for controlling gun ownership has declined; throughout the 1990s and early 2000s, a majority of Americans said it was more important to control gun ownership.

The July survey also found that Americans strongly support a variety of specific gun control measures, including expanded background checks (85%), laws to prevent people with mental illness from purchasing guns (79%) and creation of a federal database to track all gun sales (70%). A smaller majority (57%) support a ban on assault-style weapons.




jlf1961 -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 4:14:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
My friend I do listen... if you had been around to read my posts you would see where I have stated that we need new laws with the input of gun owners.. remember i am one as well... There is just no way around it... the laws today are not working... they need to be changed... Saying we have laws that are not enforced is not a viable argument.

Here in Missouri local law enforcement can be fined and imprisoned for enforcing some federal law... other out state law enforcement refuse for political reasons to enforce gun laws... this type of crap needs to change.

I want responsible gun owners to help come up with strong enforceable gun laws that will reduce stolen firearms and make careless owners responsible for crime or injury directly related to the improper storage or use of their weapons...And keep guns away from the insane as much as possible.

Is this too much to ask to help save the lives of hundreds of children and the victims of stolen weapons carelessly secured?

Butch

Butch,

With all due respect, it doesn't always appear that way.

If we all want to be reasonable about this. Those of us who have different opinions on gun ownership than you... We're not sitting at home and start jumping up and down with joy when something horrible happens. I know you think better of that of people like me.

We need stronger laws regarding strawman purchases. Getting off with a year or two is not sufficient, in my opinion. If a person has helped to facilitate an illegal purchase, they go up for the same amount of time behind bars as the person who points and/or pulls the trigger. (We do this with other crimes. We can do it for this, too.)

Expand and improve the background check system. (This could be done easily by adding an additional fee with court costs.) You committed a felony? You have forfeited your right to a firearm. Put the DV cases in the same category. If you have assaulted, stalked, threatened, or harassed someone and it fits the DV area, your access to firearms should be removed.

Storage. You're only going to get me on this half-way, Butch. If you have attempted proper storage, we shouldn't treat it the same as buying something to hand over to another person. My car is in the driveway right now. If somebody hotwires it and steals it, that's different than me giving the keys to someone who is intoxicated.

Rather than careless owners, let's go after the illegal owners first.





Lady P, the area I marked of your statement has already been addressed, all of those exclude a person from buying a firearm.

Again, all that information would normally be found in a back ground check, IF it were mandatory for state and local Courts and Law Enforcement agencies to put the information on NCIC.

However, NCIC is voluntary at the state and local level.




tweakabelle -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 4:28:23 PM)

CD, the figures for gun homicides you have cited are quite misleading. Please note that I am not accusing you of posting deliberately misleading figures. While you haven't provided a citation in your post, it looks like a cut and paste number,

A very different picture emerges if one looks at the statistics for a longer period.

US murder rates virtually doubled at the end of the 1960s from c4.5 per 100,000 to a peak of 10.2 in 1980, plateauing from the early 70s to the mid-90s at about 9 per 100,000, then declining at the end of the 90s to 5.7 per 100,000, then easing gradually to the current figure of 4.5 per 100,000. IOW murder rates spiked in the US during the 70s.80s and early 90s and now have returned to the 1960 levels.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

While US gun sales have increased, it is a fact that the % of households owning guns has halved, reflecting a large drop in the number of households where one adult or more is a hunter. So, it seems to be the case that a diminishing group of gun owners are making multiple purchases of guns. http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS%20Reports/GSS_Trends%20in%20Gun%20Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf

The drop in the homicide rate you identified is actually a return to historically normal levels after a spike during the period from the end of the 1960s to the mid-1990s.





CreativeDominant -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 4:37:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

CD, the figures for gun homicides you have cited are quite misleading. Please note that I am not accusing you of posting deliberately misleading figures. While you haven't provided a citation in your post, it looks like a cut and paste number,

A very different picture emerges if one looks at the statistics for a longer period.

US murder rates virtually doubled at the end of the 1960s from c4.5 per 100,000 to a peak of 10.2 in 1980, plateauing from the early 70s to the mid-90s at about 9 per 100,000, then declining at the end of the 90s to 5.7 per 100,000, then easing gradually to the current figure of 4.5 per 100,000. IOW murder rates spiked in the US during the 70s.80s and early 90s and now have returned to the 1960 levels.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

While US gun sales have increased, it is a fact that the % of households owning guns has halved, reflecting a large drop in the number of households where one adult or more is a hunter. So, it seems to be the case that a diminishing group of gun owners are making multiple purchases of guns. http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS%20Reports/GSS_Trends%20in%20Gun%20Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf

The drop in the homicide rate you identified is actually a return to historically normal levels after a spike during the period from the end of the 1960s to the mid-1990s.


Glad you're not accusing me of anything...

Cut and paste? Hardly. That'a the full story, as found here:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/
You'll also find a couple of very interesting charts depicting these figures.




tweakabelle -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 4:39:10 PM)

I should have written copy and paste, not cut and paste,

My apologies




ifmaz -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 5:05:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes... I have posted them before with an example in my town.

Butch


Sorry, posted what before?




BamaD -> RE: Nobody wants to take your guns. (10/29/2015 5:07:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Butch, the laws on the books would work, except that the same freaking people who want new laws do not want to fix the one thing that every damn gun law depends on, NCIC.

Why pass new laws if you dont fix the basic problem with the old ones, kinda like building a fence to keep the cows in after they have run off, dontcha think?


Jeff because many state governments refuse to enforce the existing laws... This is why we need people like you and Bama to demand they be enforced... but even then the existing laws DO NOT hold careless owners responsible directly for those killed or injured by their carelessness.

In my city this year... remember my city has a population of 30,000.. ten firearms were taken from UNLOCKED vehicles... where do you suppose those weapons will end up... I can tell you... in the hands of criminals. If one of these weapons is found to be used in a crime I believe the careless gun owner should bear some responsibility. What responsibility is should be determined by the crime committed with their weapon. This penalty should be even more severe if their carelessness results in the death or injury to a child.

I do not pretend to have the answers but the laws as they are today are not working and we need a change... Just saying enforce what we have will not work.

Butch

The Feds don't properly support their own system.




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