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RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/20/2015 2:28:16 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		except, the indians had guns.

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(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/20/2015 2:42:25 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Ask any Jew what Hitler’s first step prior to the mass murders of the Holocaust was- confiscation of firearms from the people.


In October 2015, and in response to comments made by Ben Carson, history professor Alan E. Steinweis wrote in a New York Times opinion piece:

The Jews of Germany constituted less than 1 percent of the country's population. It is preposterous to argue that the possession of firearms would have enabled them to mount resistance against a systematic program of persecution implemented by a modern bureaucracy, enforced by a well-armed police state, and either supported or tolerated by the majority of the German population. Mr. Carson’s suggestion that ordinary Germans, had they had guns, would have risked their lives in armed resistance against the regime simply does not comport with the regrettable historical reality of a regime that was quite popular at home. Inside Germany, only the army possessed the physical force necessary for defying or overthrowing the Nazis, but the generals had thrown in their lot with Hitler early on.[25]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gun_control_theory





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(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/20/2015 4:22:32 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

except, the indians had guns.

Not to many. By some accounts it was the last weapon to be siezed (other than tent stakes, knives, etc) that discharged. It was held by a deaf man who didn't understand what was going on and was grabbed by 2 soldiers.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/20/2015 4:44:48 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Ask any Jew what Hitler’s first step prior to the mass murders of the Holocaust was- confiscation of firearms from the people.


In October 2015, and in response to comments made by Ben Carson, history professor Alan E. Steinweis wrote in a New York Times opinion piece:

The Jews of Germany constituted less than 1 percent of the country's population. It is preposterous to argue that the possession of firearms would have enabled them to mount resistance against a systematic program of persecution implemented by a modern bureaucracy, enforced by a well-armed police state, and either supported or tolerated by the majority of the German population. Mr. Carson’s suggestion that ordinary Germans, had they had guns, would have risked their lives in armed resistance against the regime simply does not comport with the regrettable historical reality of a regime that was quite popular at home. Inside Germany, only the army possessed the physical force necessary for defying or overthrowing the Nazis, but the generals had thrown in their lot with Hitler early on.[25]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gun_control_theory






Most Jewish armed resistance took place after 1942, as a desperate effort, after it became clear to those who resisted that the Nazis had murdered most of their families and their coreligionists.

Jews throughout German-occupied Europe attempted armed resistance against the Germans. As individuals and in groups, Jews engaged in opposition to the Germans and their Axis partners. Jewish resistance units operated in France, Belgium, the Ukraine, Belorussia, Lithuania, and Poland. Jews also fought in general French, Italian, Yugoslav, Greek, and Soviet resistance organizations.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005441

Some of these guys did a lot of damage and killed a bunch of Snotzis. Just think how much they could have lent to the war effort had they only resisted sooner.


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"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

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(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/20/2015 5:16:22 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		TBH, I just keep thinking of 1% against 99% ... and realising that Jews owning guns would have made bugger all difference. Crystal is opaque by comparison, frankly: the ownership of guns was one giant irrelevance.

Of infinitely greater relevance was politics, of course. In particular, what *would* have made a crucial difference would have been a German populace with a healthy suspicion of any political power that focused on a weak, small minority in society as the cause of society's ills.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/20/2015 5:25:32 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

TBH, I just keep thinking of 1% against 99% ... and realising that Jews owning guns would have made bugger all difference. Crystal is opaque by comparison, frankly: the ownership of guns was one giant irrelevance.

Of infinitely greater relevance was politics, of course. In particular, what *would* have made a crucial difference would have been a German populace with a healthy suspicion of any political power that focused on a weak, small minority in society as the cause of society's ills.

If people had had guns do you really think that the gypsies and other groups designated as "inferior" would have just sat by and watched? It wouldn't have been the 1% in Germany, it would have been the other groups in Germany and in each of the other countries. Personally I would rather go down fighting than be marched into a gas chamber.
What % of the population made up the French underground?

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/20/2015 5:27:36 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Or in the case of the child shooting a sibling, (which I agree that the father should be held criminally accountable, although I would push for first degree murder,)
..............................

so, in the case where it was a single mother and the father was out of the home, you would hold the father criminally accountable?


Why do you guys keep making these preposterous strawmen?



the father was the owner of record for the gun that the child was playing with when he shot his younger brother, it was not a single parent home, the father did not have the weapon secured.

Christ on a crutch, do you ever read the stories referred to, or do you just pull stupid statements out of your ass on command?

It is the same as the 11 year old boy who killed an 8 year old girl in Tennessee because the little girl would not let him see her new puppies, the child is being charged with first degree murder as an adult, but the parents, who clearly did not have the loaded shotgun secured, are walking around fat and stupid.

Criminally negligent homicide is a bullshit charge for situations like this.

Lets go back a few years, at least two of the guns used in the Columbine massacre were owned by the parents of the shooters. In that case no criminal charges were filled against the parents, the civil settlements were effectively nullified by bankruptcy.

In my opinion, and in the opinion of most gun owners, part of responsible gun ownership is securing the damn guns. You get idiots like these parents, who were so fucking stupid they didnt take any measure to prevent such an accident.

Then there are individuals like you that pop off with "in a single mother household you would hold the father responsible."

First, you seem clueless about the fact there are people who own guns who are tired of seeing the same old stupid news reports that include the phrase "they didnt know the gun was loaded" or "child shoots <insert victim> with parent's gun" because the damn thing was not properly stored and secured.



_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/20/2015 5:40:32 PM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

TBH, I just keep thinking of 1% against 99% ... and realising that Jews owning guns would have made bugger all difference. Crystal is opaque by comparison, frankly: the ownership of guns was one giant irrelevance.

Of infinitely greater relevance was politics, of course. In particular, what *would* have made a crucial difference would have been a German populace with a healthy suspicion of any political power that focused on a weak, small minority in society as the cause of society's ills.


In most of what you have posted regarding the Jews having given up their weapons you seem to be saying that that was the correct thing to do. Is that right? Many of the Jews that were taken were used as slave labor. Others were subjected to atrocious experimentation by Nazi doctors and scientists. Pretty much all of them were starved. Almost all of them were herded up like cattle and slaughtered. Exactly how was that better than having a fighting chance to take some of the Nazis with them, and if they must die, hopefully have a swift death?

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(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/20/2015 5:46:07 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

except, the indians had guns.

And the white man practiced total war, destroying their food supply and outnumbering them 10-1

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/20/2015 5:49:50 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

except, the indians had guns.

Not to many. By some accounts it was the last weapon to be siezed (other than tent stakes, knives, etc) that discharged. It was held by a deaf man who didn't understand what was going on and was grabbed by 2 soldiers.



The 'scuffle" that started the massacre was caused when two soldiers tried to confiscate the rifle of a man who had legally bought the weapon.

The entire Wounded Knee incident involved a group of Lakota Sioux who followed the "Ghost Dance" practice that had originated on the Ute reservation in Utah. The belief was that by doing the ghost dance, the spirits of the dead warriors would return and drive the white man out of the homelands of the various tribes.

The incident also followed the murder of Sitting Bull by two Sioux Indian police officers. Sitting Bull had refused to try and dissuade his people from following the ghost dance movement.

As for the "indians had guns" statement, first there were few guns in the encampment, second the 7th Cavalry troopers used Hotchkiss (light, breach loading cannon) on the encampment, supplemented by volleys of rifle fire.

Many unarmed Lakota fled the camp but were chased down and killed by members of the glorious 7th.

Wounded Knee was but one of three massacres of Sioux that month, it had been preceded by Stronghold, 75 Sioux killed by units of the South Dakota Home Guard within the boundaries of the Pine Ridge reservation, and on December 10, seven wagon loads of Sioux were killed returning from visiting a friend who lived at Buffalo Gap.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/21/2015 8:51:07 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

except, the indians had guns.

And the white man practiced total war, destroying their food supply and outnumbering them 10-1



And you can only hope under tyrannical governments that the feebleminded practice total war and outnumber the government and might of the united states 10-1. You don't though.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/21/2015 11:14:12 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

TBH, I just keep thinking of 1% against 99% ... and realising that Jews owning guns would have made bugger all difference. Crystal is opaque by comparison, frankly: the ownership of guns was one giant irrelevance.

Of infinitely greater relevance was politics, of course. In particular, what *would* have made a crucial difference would have been a German populace with a healthy suspicion of any political power that focused on a weak, small minority in society as the cause of society's ills.


In most of what you have posted regarding the Jews having given up their weapons you seem to be saying that that was the correct thing to do. Is that right? Many of the Jews that were taken were used as slave labor. Others were subjected to atrocious experimentation by Nazi doctors and scientists. Pretty much all of them were starved. Almost all of them were herded up like cattle and slaughtered. Exactly how was that better than having a fighting chance to take some of the Nazis with them, and if they must die, hopefully have a swift death?


I think if I'd been Jewish, had seen the way things were going come Hitler's accession, I would have felt *very* inclined to hold onto my gun, were I already to have one. The chances are small that I would have had a gun, though:

"Few citizens owned, or were entitled to own firearms in Germany in the 1930s.[1] The Weimar Republic had strict gun control laws.[6] When the Third Reich gained power, some aspects of gun regulation were loosened, such as allowing ownership for Nazi party members and the military.[4]:672 The laws were harshened in other ways. Nazi laws disarmed "unreliable" persons, especially Jews, but relaxed restrictions for "ordinary" German citizens."

Nonetheless, I think I'd have felt somewhat better having a gun around the house, hidden somewhere. But, really - again - what difference do you think that would have made to the fate of the Jews overall? You say that a gun gives you a fighting chance: sure, if it comes to a shoot-out. But why would the Nazis have let arrests turn into shoot-outs? They weren't known for being 'inefficient'. They industrialised mass-slaughter for the first time, so it's said. They kept the Jews - and other 'enemies of the Reich' - silent by feeding them misinformation about their destination right up to the time they arrived at the concentration camps. I suspect they'd have had employed similar techniques for effecting speedy and quiet arrests.

Another point: re the the quote above: the Nazis relaxed restrictions for 'ordinary Germans'. It would be nice to think that plenty of said ordinary Germans could use their weapons to protect Jews. But, by and large, they didn't, as we all know. The truth is, though, that governments have tended to get people's aggression focused the way they want it to be focused: against this or that minority, this or that group that has little power. I don't think anybody needs to rack their brains for equivalents in modern societies.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/21/2015 11:17:40 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Gun control in the Weimar Republic was due to the treaties they were forced to sign in the aftermath of WWI. Hitler actually *twice* reduced gun laws.

Much as he could get away with or felt he could each time.

Of course nobody wants undesireables to have guns, and that is how it was presented.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/21/2015 11:49:57 AM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Gun control in the Weimar Republic was due to the treaties they were forced to sign in the aftermath of WWI. Hitler actually *twice* reduced gun laws.

Much as he could get away with or felt he could each time.

Of course nobody wants undesireables to have guns, and that is how it was presented.



Hitler decreased gun laws after he saw to it that undesirables, like jews and gypsies, didn't have them and his lossening did not apply to those groups.
The law Hitler used to collect guns was a 1931 law intended to keep guns away from radicals like him. 1931 was late enough not to have been mandated by the treaty. It also shows the danger of registration, passed with good intentions it was used by the worst element in their society to disarm the people they intended to go after.

You forget the speach about how Germany was going to lead the world in safety and crime prevention after passing the 1933 law?

< Message edited by BamaD -- 10/21/2015 11:54:42 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: SCOTUS, Second Amendment and gun control laws. - 10/21/2015 12:02:59 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Nope, wrong. That is nutsuckerism wherever you are getting that from.
1919, and even stricter in 1920 were the laws required by the Versailles treaty.

1928 was the Nazis first loosening of gun laws
1938 was the second (in which jews were banned from buying)
it was (with the obvious exceptions of jews) the basis for the 1972 gun law in Germany.
(the 45 and 56 acts were due to WWII, and even cops didnt carry guns until after 56)

There was no legislation in 1931 to do shit about guns.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 10/21/2015 12:03:04 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 95
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