RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work

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HAK1M -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/9/2015 4:33:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bunnicula quote: ORIGINAL: HAK1M rude people get knocked on their keesters almost any place ...and one-legged ducks swim in circles. Which makes more sense than the bolded original comment. edited for clarity Another idiocy for me to correct. Stop tearing this language apart. " bolded" is not an English word..... Bold is an adjective. So where in the hell could you obtain the pp from an adjective. ... Jeez.

Wayward5oul -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/9/2015 5:13:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze At most events I went to there were monitors who asked people who weren't playing by the rules to leave. As for legalities, I think we all have broken laws to play, otherwise there wouldn't have been any impact play ever, but the law isn't concerned with what 2 or more consenting adults do as long as nobody gets seriously injured, knowing your play partner and your skills goes a long way. I'd really hesitate playing with somebody I don't know well enough. Agree with knowing the people you are playing with, because at least here in the U.S., the law can get concerned about what 2 or more consenting adults do, even if someone is not seriously injured. If a complaint is made post-play, injury or no, prosecution is possible. It may be harder to prove if there is no injury, but it is still open to prosecution.

Mawine -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/13/2015 10:00:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bunnicula In the UK professions like teachers, police, doctors, firefighters and everyone who works with children and vulnerable adults has to undergo a criminal records check. Mine has to be renewed every 3 years and it records any previous convictions and arrests. That's not strictly true. Whilst the DBS check is better than the CRB given that once done it can easily be updated through the cheap update service the law and wording of the guidelines is as wooly as ever. The wording is actual 'reasonable timeframe'. Like the previous CRB, DBS in the UK is only really valid at the moment of checking. All it checks is if someone has been caught. Indeed for one community group I worked with training their service users they actually make use of psychometric testing prior to hiring in order to help further determine how they will relate to at risk groups. Their argument was that a DBS (or CRB) doesn't stop people taking advantage. Worse still, here in the UK we have had successive government imposing harsher laws and mechanisms in order to restrict and criminalise people. For example the 'adult content filter' means we all have to opt out. I'll be honest though, I do agree with the criminalisation of the extreme p*rn (beating or injury to genitalia, breasts and backsides). I disagree with how wooly the definitions are of such imagery, but think the intention was correct. Likewise, whilst I think the intention was good the implementation of internet regulation was bad and is discussed very eloquently by Hywel of restrained elegance on his blog http://elegancestudios.com/wordpress/?p=26017. The problem is that legislators are caught between a rock and a hard place. I would like to be able to practise bondage and be bound and perhaps gagged or hooded, but the government of the UK want there to be a way that consent can be withdrawn during the practise (read earlier posts on Hywel's blog for more information on that). I applaud the intention in wanting to show that no means no, and that ignoring consent (or withdrawal of) is abuse. That said the implementation is difficult. For me, I think we have to come back to the old SSC thing. I might want to be bound and gagged and at the mercy of another, but if I suddenly lose all feeling and get severe pins and needles in my leg that's a warning sign. To ignore it, or not have a way of telling my partner in such play that I'm at risk of injury is not safe or sane. So I agree that 'all inclusive doesn't work'. There are some kinks that are clearly dangerous and exploitative. How to exclude such practises from the 'community' is a difficult one. In munches, and play events or clubs it's pretty easy. It's like safeguarding: if you are in doubt you tell someone above you (the organiser in these cases). It will then be up to said organiser to communicate or not with the relevant people and ensure that no abuse is being taken place. Safeguarding is EVERYONE's responsibility here in the UK. If someone is vulnerable and you witness that person at risk of abuse you have to speak out and talk about it with someone in a position of responsibility. I'll go one step further and add, that until those of us with kinks all speak out about exploitative people and exclude them from our communities we will be seen to be just as dirty and guilty as those members.

Cell -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/13/2015 2:42:09 PM)
quote: I'll be honest though, I do agree with the criminalisation of the extreme p*rn (beating or injury to genitalia, breasts and backsides). Why on earth would you agree with a stupid thing like that... Believe it or not, some people like being beaten in those areas! And some people even like watching it @_@. It's not really anyone's business what people like to do to each other's private parts, or what gets them off. Too much stuff is illegal already, I think everyone just needs get their mind out of other people's pants and mind their own business.

Mawine -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/13/2015 5:30:10 PM)
Honestly, I agree, but it's only a personal opinion. I'm sure some people do enjoy it, but the aspects that are criminalised are injury (serious or otherwise) to said areas. It is the injury aspect I have issue with. It treads an extremely fine line and one that I'm not sure can be done safely. As a sidenote cell: I may disagree with another's views, but I'd never call it a 'stupid thing'. I'd ask that you consider your wording in future. Someone might not understand how I could enjoy being bound, but I'd never call their opinions stupid.

Cell -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/13/2015 10:53:52 PM)
Ha, cry me a river =P You can't agree to both, people having the right to their kink and also the criminalisation of it. Stop sending my dick to jail. What people choose to do with their bodies (injury not withstanding) is their own business. That goes for yours too.

LadyPact -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/14/2015 10:56:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cell Stop sending my dick to jail. What people choose to do with their bodies (injury not withstanding) is their own business. That goes for yours too. Well, no offense, but as long as your dick is only ending up with other people who actually want it there, we're good. On the other hand, when people negotiate no sexual contact and then, somehow, they have accidentally 'slipped' and it ends up being where it doesn't belong, that's kind of a problem. Wouldn't you agree?

Bunnicula -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/14/2015 11:24:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mawine quote: ORIGINAL: Bunnicula In the UK professions like teachers, police, doctors, firefighters and everyone who works with children and vulnerable adults has to undergo a criminal records check. Mine has to be renewed every 3 years and it records any previous convictions and arrests. That's not strictly true. Whilst the DBS check is better than the CRB given that once done it can easily be updated through the cheap update service the law and wording of the guidelines is as wooly as ever. The wording is actual 'reasonable timeframe'. Like the previous CRB, DBS in the UK is only really valid at the moment of checking. All it checks is if someone has been caught. Indeed for one community group I worked with training their service users they actually make use of psychometric testing prior to hiring in order to help further determine how they will relate to at risk groups. Their argument was that a DBS (or CRB) doesn't stop people taking advantage. I didn't say EVERYONE'S has to be updated every 3 years, but mine does. That's the policy of my local education authority. So yes, it is true.

Cell -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 6:08:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: Cell Stop sending my dick to jail. What people choose to do with their bodies (injury not withstanding) is their own business. That goes for yours too. Well, no offense, but as long as your dick is only ending up with other people who actually want it there, we're good. On the other hand, when people negotiate no sexual contact and then, somehow, they have accidentally 'slipped' and it ends up being where it doesn't belong, that's kind of a problem. Wouldn't you agree? Consent isn't what I'm talking about. I'm advocating having the freedom to be able to consent rather than criminalising the taboo. (In response to the idea of criminalising acts involving beating and/or injury) I do of course agree to the principle of consent as an aside... As someone who yourself has injured people on occasion I'm sure you can appreciate that trying to police people's sex lives in accordance with prevailing taboos is a closed-minded and nosey pastime. In regards to the general theme of excluding undesirables to protect the vulnerable. I'm not really against it... although I might share a somewhat unhelpful thought with you. I tend to think that the capacity for good and 'evil' exist within everyone and so, we could very well try to exclude the entire world and yet all the things that we hate and fear would still exist, kept safe like a seed, within ourselves. More practically though, I don't know how your BDSM community groups are organised over there, (or over here for that matter) If someone is being a menace then surely there is some kind of avenue for the victims to complain or something. P.S. You do get that I'm saying people have the right to choose what to do with their body right? Not that they have the right to do whatever they like with anyone else's.

LadyPact -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 8:07:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cell Consent isn't what I'm talking about. I'm advocating having the freedom to be able to consent rather than criminalising the taboo. (In response to the idea of criminalising acts involving beating and/or injury) I do of course agree to the principle of consent as an aside... I break down quotes so I can keep better track of what I want to address. I hope that's cool. Before responding, I want to thank you for an interesting contribution. It's been hard to keep threads on track sometimes these days. Let's talk for a second about the principle of consent, rather than criminalizing activities. A high majority of the time, the bigger problems that we have in our kink communities aren't problems when people are just having fun at home, if none of the first person participants are having a problem. If you and the partner of your choice are content with what you're doing, nobody is really going to get involved with it. I mean, you could always have the concerned neighbor that could call the cops if the noise level goes too high. quote: As someone who yourself has injured people on occasion I'm sure you can appreciate that trying to police people's sex lives in accordance with prevailing taboos is a closed-minded and nosey pastime. Injured would be a rather strong word. I'm not one of those tops who says I've never missed a strike but there' never been anybody who required (formal) medical care or anything like that. I consider it rather 'normal' in comparison to other folks who engage in the types of play that I do. Keeping areas clean post open skin/wound care and the like. A couple of blisters from fire (not wax) play that darn near everyone else has had happen. I'm not saying that I'm above the possibility that somebody could require medical care. Nobody is. I can say there have been no trips to the ER. quote: In regards to the general theme of excluding undesirables to protect the vulnerable. I'm not really against it... although I might share a somewhat unhelpful thought with you. I tend to think that the capacity for good and 'evil' exist within everyone and so, we could very well try to exclude the entire world and yet all the things that we hate and fear would still exist, kept safe like a seed, within ourselves. Every human is capable of good or evil. Do I have the potential to go out and steal a car? Sure. Would I do it? No. We have to look at acts against other people. I think most people with experience in kink are reasonable enough to know that some folks engage in rape play, which is much different than an actual rape. If somebody plays in the dungeon area at a con, that's different than clocking somebody coming out of an elevator. (The latter is also a true story.) quote: More practically though, I don't know how your BDSM community groups are organised over there, (or over here for that matter) If someone is being a menace then surely there is some kind of avenue for the victims to complain or something. Sometimes, but not always. Some that do aren't terribly effective. It's like anything else. Some places are better than others. quote: P.S. You do get that I'm saying people have the right to choose what to do with their body right? Not that they have the right to do whatever they like with anyone else's. Which is why I think that's a place to start. It's not going to be an easy thing but it's something we can work towards.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 8:26:18 AM)
Regarding BDSM groups and and victims having a way to complain; unfortunately what it often comes down to is a he said/she said drama and in the end all anyone remembers about the victim is he/she was THAT person involved in THAT huge drama that nearly tore apart a "community." Many victims stay quiet because the menace presents such a charming persona and is well liked and seemingly respected. I'm not saying it is the right thing, but at some point you just accept that even if you do all the "right" things and take your time and get to know someone - bad things can still happen and what it boils down to is being aware that SSC goes out the window when the predator lets his/her mask slip.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 8:35:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze At most events I went to there were monitors who asked people who weren't playing by the rules to leave. As for legalities, I think we all have broken laws to play, otherwise there wouldn't have been any impact play ever, but the law isn't concerned with what 2 or more consenting adults do as long as nobody gets seriously injured, knowing your play partner and your skills goes a long way. I'd really hesitate playing with somebody I don't know well enough. Agree with knowing the people you are playing with, because at least here in the U.S., the law can get concerned about what 2 or more consenting adults do, even if someone is not seriously injured. If a complaint is made post-play, injury or no, prosecution is possible. It may be harder to prove if there is no injury, but it is still open to prosecution. It's several years ago, but it cracked me up, it was a mini scandal in Germany (where BDSM and commercial BDSM is legal), some guy had found a way to get free sessions by after the session demanding his money back, claiming it wasn't exactly what he liked and more pain than agreed and they wouldn't want him to sue. Worked for him quite often as commercial dungeons try to avoid scandals, until one domme decided she's out anyway, let him bring it on. Guy went ahead and sued her, the judge had a field day with him, especially since by then several other dommes testified that he's well known for doing it. Let's just say the public humiliation the guy got from the judge was something he couldn't have gotten in any session, very pointed questions were asked like "So you agreed to get hit with a whip several times? You even specified the number of lashes you want, you paid in advance for it and now you are wasting the time of this court by complaining that you got what you paid for? Are you an adult in full possession of your mental faculties?"

Wayward5oul -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 8:52:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze At most events I went to there were monitors who asked people who weren't playing by the rules to leave. As for legalities, I think we all have broken laws to play, otherwise there wouldn't have been any impact play ever, but the law isn't concerned with what 2 or more consenting adults do as long as nobody gets seriously injured, knowing your play partner and your skills goes a long way. I'd really hesitate playing with somebody I don't know well enough. Agree with knowing the people you are playing with, because at least here in the U.S., the law can get concerned about what 2 or more consenting adults do, even if someone is not seriously injured. If a complaint is made post-play, injury or no, prosecution is possible. It may be harder to prove if there is no injury, but it is still open to prosecution. It's several years ago, but it cracked me up, it was a mini scandal in Germany (where BDSM and commercial BDSM is legal), some guy had found a way to get free sessions by after the session demanding his money back, claiming it wasn't exactly what he liked and more pain than agreed and they wouldn't want him to sue. Worked for him quite often as commercial dungeons try to avoid scandals, until one domme decided she's out anyway, let him bring it on. Guy went ahead and sued her, the judge had a field day with him, especially since by then several other dommes testified that he's well known for doing it. Let's just say the public humiliation the guy got from the judge was something he couldn't have gotten in any session, very pointed questions were asked like "So you agreed to get hit with a whip several times? You even specified the number of lashes you want, you paid in advance for it and now you are wasting the time of this court by complaining that you got what you paid for? Are you an adult in full possession of your mental faculties?" We need some of those judges on this side of the pond!

Wayward5oul -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 8:53:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bunnicula quote: ORIGINAL: Mawine quote: ORIGINAL: Bunnicula In the UK professions like teachers, police, doctors, firefighters and everyone who works with children and vulnerable adults has to undergo a criminal records check. Mine has to be renewed every 3 years and it records any previous convictions and arrests. That's not strictly true. Whilst the DBS check is better than the CRB given that once done it can easily be updated through the cheap update service the law and wording of the guidelines is as wooly as ever. The wording is actual 'reasonable timeframe'. Like the previous CRB, DBS in the UK is only really valid at the moment of checking. All it checks is if someone has been caught. Indeed for one community group I worked with training their service users they actually make use of psychometric testing prior to hiring in order to help further determine how they will relate to at risk groups. Their argument was that a DBS (or CRB) doesn't stop people taking advantage. I didn't say EVERYONE'S has to be updated every 3 years, but mine does. That's the policy of my local education authority. So yes, it is true. Pretty much the same in the U.S.

Cell -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 10:09:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance Regarding BDSM groups and and victims having a way to complain; unfortunately what it often comes down to is a he said/she said drama and in the end all anyone remembers about the victim is he/she was THAT person involved in THAT huge drama that nearly tore apart a "community." Many victims stay quiet because the menace presents such a charming persona and is well liked and seemingly respected. I'm not saying it is the right thing, but at some point you just accept that even if you do all the "right" things and take your time and get to know someone - bad things can still happen and what it boils down to is being aware that SSC goes out the window when the predator lets his/her mask slip. I've never had any desire to socialise with groups of kinky people or be part of a BDSM community (apart from these posts I guess), so I can't really understand it. For me it's a one on one thing, and to be honest I find the idea of being around public sex acts a bit gross. Just a personal opinion, not a judgment. I really don't want to sound insensitive about people being used and lied to by unscrupulous sleazebags, but I've seen this kind of thing before (and recently), and some women are like lemmings seriously... no matter what they just run straight for the cliff and down they go. I'll be dammed if I can understand it.

HAK1M -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 10:27:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bunnicula quote: ORIGINAL: Mawine quote: ORIGINAL: Bunnicula In the UK professions like teachers, police, doctors, firefighters and everyone who works with children and vulnerable adults has to undergo a criminal records check. Mine has to be renewed every 3 years and it records any previous convictions and arrests. That's not strictly true. Whilst the DBS check is better than the CRB given that once done it can easily be updated through the cheap update service the law and wording of the guidelines is as wooly as ever. The wording is actual 'reasonable timeframe'. Like the previous CRB, DBS in the UK is only really valid at the moment of checking. All it checks is if someone has been caught. Indeed for one community group I worked with training their service users they actually make use of psychometric testing prior to hiring in order to help further determine how they will relate to at risk groups. Their argument was that a DBS (or CRB) doesn't stop people taking advantage. I didn't say EVERYONE'S has to be updated every 3 years, but mine does. That's the policy of my local education authority. So yes, it is true. NO COMMENT

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 10:39:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cell quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance Regarding BDSM groups and and victims having a way to complain; unfortunately what it often comes down to is a he said/she said drama and in the end all anyone remembers about the victim is he/she was THAT person involved in THAT huge drama that nearly tore apart a "community." Many victims stay quiet because the menace presents such a charming persona and is well liked and seemingly respected. I'm not saying it is the right thing, but at some point you just accept that even if you do all the "right" things and take your time and get to know someone - bad things can still happen and what it boils down to is being aware that SSC goes out the window when the predator lets his/her mask slip. I've never had any desire to socialise with groups of kinky people or be part of a BDSM community, so I can't really understand it. For me it's a one on one thing, and to be honest I find the idea of being around public sex acts a bit gross. Just a personal opinion, not a judgment. I really don't want to sound insensitive about people being used and lied to by unscrupulous sleazebags, but I've seen this kind of thing a fair bit (and recently), and some women are like lemmings seriously... no matter what they just run straight for the cliff and down they go. It's really an interesting thing to see and I'll be dammed if I can understand it. To correct a small misconception. I've never seen sex acts at a play party. While BDSM can be a sexual thing, and privately for me it is - publicly it has always been a sadomasochistic thing. Although, there is often a sensual aspect to a play party scene, sex even full nudity is usually against club rules. I know at one time I was a magnet for controlling assholes with addiction issues, I recognized that a long time ago and my assfu is strong. Lol. I, personally have amazing and long term friendships with almost all of those I've been in BDSM relationships with. Because I'm not a novice and I've been there and done that; i sometimes feel compelled to speak up because so much of the education provided to new people implies that if you follow the SSC protocols you'll be safe. I think it beneficial to remind them that if they chose to engage in activities that involve risk, that the risks are always there and you can do all the right things and still find yourself in a bad situation. By the way, I also think it important to point out that the victim isn't always the accuser. Sometimes the one being accused is the actual victim. Buyers/Players remorse is a bigger problem, imho than predators for most groups.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 10:48:10 AM)
Ditto, I have yet to go to a play party and see full blown sex, or a munch where people wear anything else than street close and behave like normal people meeting in a restaurant or bar... The idea that everything that has to do with BDSM/kink is like some massive orgy/swinger party is just wrong.

Cell -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 11:01:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance By the way, I also think it important to point out that the victim isn't always the accuser. Sometimes the one being accused is the actual victim. Buyers/Players remorse is a bigger problem, imho than predators for most groups. What do you mean/ how so?

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why "all inclusive" doesn't work (11/15/2015 1:12:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cell quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance By the way, I also think it important to point out that the victim isn't always the accuser. Sometimes the one being accused is the actual victim. Buyers/Players remorse is a bigger problem, imho than predators for most groups. What do you mean/ how so? I won't list specific examples, as they are not my stories to share, but I'll give hypothetical examples along similar lines. Players remorse is more common than it should be and I think ties in with sub-drop. For some, such as those who engage in humiliation scenes, find that fantasy doesn't always translate great into reality and after they indulge their fantasies fall back on blaming the Top and making accusations of abuse/rape etc. Some of those times, it is more players remorse and internal feelings of shame than the Top's fault for giving the bottom what they thought they wanted. Some play triggers strong emotional reactions that neither the bottom or top were prepared for, and at times the bottom makes accusations toward the Top after the fact. Sometimes, the bottom has a history of playing victim and making accusations against various people they've engaged with. If you don't know the bottom's history, or they have moved from one venue to the next (usually leaving a mess in their wake) it takes time before that individuals MO becomes evident and the ones accused of things by the 'victim' become victimized. (sighs) I hate to paint this horrid picture of the public scene. Many of my fondest memories are from play parties and munches and I've made close friends in the scene. One of whom is sitting across from me at the table right now. :)

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