Intetesting Take From Obama (Full Version)

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CreativeDominant -> Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 9:57:04 AM)

Obama on liberal college students who want to be "coddled": "That’s not the way we learn"
Updated by Libby Nelson on September 14, 2015, 7:20 p.m. ET @libbyanelson [email protected]

DES MOINES, Iowa — People concerned about liberal political correctness on college campuses have a powerful ally:
President Obama.

At a town hall here on college affordability on Monday afternoon, one student asked Obama to respond to Republican presidential contender Ben Carson's proposal to cut off funding to colleges that demonstrate political bias.

Unsurprisingly, Obama didn't like it much. "I have no idea what that means, and I suspect he doesn’t either," he said, then continued: "The idea that you’d have somebody in government making a decision about what you should think ahead of time or what you should be taught, and if it’s not the right thought, or idea, or perspective or philosophy, that person would be — they wouldn’t get funding, runs contrary to everything we believe about education," he said. "That might work in the Soviet Union, but that doesn’t work here. That's not who we are."

After that criticism, he went on to give his opinion about what's been called the "new political correctness" on college campuses:

It’s not just sometimes folks who are mad that colleges are too liberal that have a problem. Sometimes there are folks on college campuses who are liberal, and maybe even agree with me on a bunch of issues, who sometimes aren’t listening to the other side, and that’s a problem too. I’ve heard some college campuses where they don’t want to have a guest speaker who is too conservative or they don’t want to read a book if it has language that is offensive to African-Americans or somehow sends a demeaning signal towards women. I gotta tell you, I don’t agree with that either. I don’t agree that you, when you become students at colleges, have to be coddled and protected from different points of view. I think you should be able to — anybody who comes to speak to you and you disagree with, you should have an argument with ‘em. But you shouldn’t silence them by saying, "You can’t come because I'm too sensitive to hear what you have to say." That’s not the way we learn either.

The word Obama chose is telling. The idea that college students are demanding to be "coddled" comes up frequently in debates about how much colleges should accommodate requests from students for trigger warnings on syllabuses, for example, or how they should respond to criticisms of graduation speakers or even comedy shows. A recent Atlantic article on the phenomenon was headlined "The Coddling of the American Mind."

Obama has clearly followed those debates, and seems to side with critics who think students are asking colleges to go too far. But he was also making a broader point, one he returned to repeatedly, about the purpose of college itself.


How Obama argued for a well-rounded education

Obama started his response to the Carson question with an argument about what college is for: "The purpose of college is not just … to transmit skills," he said. "It’s also to widen your horizons, to make you a better citizen, to help you to evaluate information, to help you make your way through the world, to help you be more creative."

This seemed like an implicit response to a frequent criticism of the administration's higher education policy: that it defines the purpose of college too narrowly, and seeks to evaluate colleges and hold them accountable based on metrics that don't show the full picture.

Those criticisms were particularly prominent this weekend, after the White House released a new version of its College Scorecard, a search engine for colleges that displays a range of federal statistics. For the first time, prospective students, families, policymakers, families, and others are able to search colleges and find, among other information, how much money their students earn 10 years after they first enrolled.

The scorecard includes plenty of other information as well, including students' loan payments, their average debt, and the price students from different income quintiles will pay. But the earnings data has been the most controversial part, with Obama accused of reducing the value of college to a number that colleges themselves can't fully control.

At the Monday town hall, he defended the accountability approach in part, including in response to a question about the struggles of historically black colleges. "There are some of those schools, just like non-historically black colleges and universities, who take in a lot of students but don’t always graduate their students, and those students end up being stuck with debt and it’s not a good deal for them," he said.

But repeatedly during the forum, which was nominally about college costs, Obama returned to a central point: the value of education, at both K-12 and the college level, to create a well-rounded person.

"Because there was this space where you could interact with people who didn’t agree with you and had different backgrounds from you … I started testing my own assumptions, and sometimes I changed my mind," he said. "Sometimes I realized, maybe I’ve been too narrow-minded; maybe I didn’t take this into account; maybe I should see this person’s perspective. That’s what college, in part, is all about."




KenDckey -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 11:38:58 AM)

I have had professors that would flunk you if you failed to agree with their point of view. Some say that Shakespere was a good writer. I ddn't agree and my grade reflected it. My reasoning didn't matter. Did I get a well rounded education that way no. I think that Piscao was on LSD and his art reflected that. Do college profs appreciate my point of view. No. I had a speech teacher that thought all speeches had to have foot notes where you quoted and cited that quote to do humor.

Pulling funding is one way. Fireing these people is another - they aren't doing the students any good.




MrRodgers -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 11:52:41 AM)

Yes, an interesting take. I've always thought that college like life, was to always test a person and to the extent one passes those tests, to a large degree...measures one's success.




dcnovice -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 11:57:29 AM)

quote:

Some say that Shakespere was a good writer. I ddn't agree and my grade reflected it. My reasoning didn't matter.

What's your objection to Shakespeare?




bounty44 -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 12:45:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
...Obama returned to a central point: the value of education, at both K-12 and the college level, to create a well-rounded person.

"Because there was this space where you could interact with people who didn’t agree with you and had different backgrounds from you … I started testing my own assumptions, and sometimes I changed my mind," he said. "Sometimes I realized, maybe I’ve been too narrow-minded; maybe I didn’t take this into account; maybe I should see this person’s perspective. That’s what college, in part, is all about."


this little part here seems very ironic to me given how much he whines about and takes jabs at fox news...and conservative talk radio...and republicans...etc.

liberal bias is a huge problem on college campuses, but just as bad is, campuses are full of too many students who either aren't prepared to learn (that is, they cannot read, write, think, and do math at a college freshmen competency level), and/or don't make a concerted effort to learn.

as a related aside---did you all hear the recent news that 96% of faculty at cornell donated to (if i am remembering rightly) the democratic party. the o'reilly factor sent jesse watters up to the campus to question the students about that, and watters got kicked off the campus.





Musicmystery -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 1:28:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I have had professors that would flunk you if you failed to agree with their point of view. Some say that Shakespere was a good writer. I ddn't agree and my grade reflected it. My reasoning didn't matter. Did I get a well rounded education that way no. I think that Piscao was on LSD and his art reflected that. Do college profs appreciate my point of view. No. I had a speech teacher that thought all speeches had to have foot notes where you quoted and cited that quote to do humor.

Pulling funding is one way. Fireing these people is another - they aren't doing the students any good.

Oh FFS.

I doubt the courses were "you must like Shakespeare and Picasso." Now, if you spent all the time the rest of class was learning just what Shakespeare and Picasso were doing, instead of pouting and saying "I don't like that," something any kid could do, then yeah, you learned nothing, and deserved the poor grades.

And I doubt mastering the material but verbalizing your lack of appreciation was the real reason. Sounds a lot more like someone blaming others for personal failings.




Lucylastic -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 1:38:39 PM)

quote:

this little part here seems very ironic to me given how much he whines about and takes jabs at fox news...and conservative talk radio...and republicans...etc.

liberal bias is a huge problem on college campuses, but just as bad is, campuses are full of too many students who either aren't prepared to learn (that is, they cannot read, write, think, and do math at a college freshmen competency level), and/or don't make a concerted effort to learn.

as a related aside---did you all hear the recent news that 96% of faculty at cornell donated to (if i am remembering rightly) the democratic party. the o'reilly factor sent jesse watters up to the campus to question the students about that, and watters got kicked off the campus.


every single candidate in the past 8 elections have bitched about the media,
the entire republican and democrat side are bitching about the media, see the trump and carson media cluster ...especially with carson attacking everyone since the politico piece. palin/romney, bachman, caine, perry, blah blah blah was the same. Lets not forget hilary...benghazi anyone? libya anyone?
You follow all the bullshit put out about obama since he came on the scene, the birthers (trump and oily taint?) him being a secret muslim? his father being a communist/youve done it yourself.

what utter utter hypocrisy and blatant self ignorance.




KenDckey -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 2:17:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Some say that Shakespere was a good writer. I ddn't agree and my grade reflected it. My reasoning didn't matter.

What's your objection to Shakespeare?

1 Mandatory reading and understanding in the same manner as directed by the teacher is bullshit. My intrepretation differed. Who the hell is anyone to tell anyone how the MUST intrepret anything.
2. Because some "expert" says that his work is good does not make it good no matter who they are. That is like saying I must believe in God and intrepret the bible a certain way because the Pope said so.
3. Free thinking was discouraged and not incouraged. If you didn't come to the prof's conclusions then they were wrong. I didn't like his works, I don't think he could write his name without help, and the drivel that he gave the world lessened it.

Questions that you get wrong when they ask your opinion are bullshit propoganda ones and that was the type asked.




KenDckey -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 2:22:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I have had professors that would flunk you if you failed to agree with their point of view. Some say that Shakespere was a good writer. I ddn't agree and my grade reflected it. My reasoning didn't matter. Did I get a well rounded education that way no. I think that Piscao was on LSD and his art reflected that. Do college profs appreciate my point of view. No. I had a speech teacher that thought all speeches had to have foot notes where you quoted and cited that quote to do humor.

Pulling funding is one way. Fireing these people is another - they aren't doing the students any good.

Oh FFS.

I doubt the courses were "you must like Shakespeare and Picasso." Now, if you spent all the time the rest of class was learning just what Shakespeare and Picasso were doing, instead of pouting and saying "I don't like that," something any kid could do, then yeah, you learned nothing, and deserved the poor grades.

And I doubt mastering the material but verbalizing your lack of appreciation was the real reason. Sounds a lot more like someone blaming others for personal failings.


Seems I got all the questions about what was said right (more or less) and those that asked my opinion wrong. A teacher should be teaching a person to t hink for themselves, not regirgitate whatever they or some "expert" wants them to think.




dcnovice -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 2:34:02 PM)

quote:

1 Mandatory reading and understanding in the same manner as directed by the teacher is bullshit. My intrepretation differed. Who the hell is anyone to tell anyone how the MUST intrepret anything.
2. Because some "expert" says that his work is good does not make it good no matter who they are. That is like saying I must believe in God and intrepret the bible a certain way because the Pope said so.
3. Free thinking was discouraged and not incouraged. If you didn't come to the prof's conclusions then they were wrong. I didn't like his works, I don't think he could write his name without help, and the drivel that he gave the world lessened it.

You certainly have the right to dislike any writer you choose. And I think Shakespeare is often taught abominably. Plays are meant to be performed and seen, not trudged through in a textbook. D.C. is blessed with an incredible Shakespeare Theatre, and seeing its brilliant productions, even when I disagree with the artistic choices, is night and day from my high school English classes.

All that said, I can't help noticing that your three-point answer contains no substantive comment on the Bard's actual merits. Perhaps your prof noticed that too?

Have you ever tried the film versions of Henry V (Branagh) and Richard III (McKellen)?




bounty44 -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 3:05:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Some say that Shakespere was a good writer. I ddn't agree and my grade reflected it. My reasoning didn't matter.

What's your objection to Shakespeare?

1 Mandatory reading and understanding in the same manner as directed by the teacher is bullshit. My intrepretation differed. Who the hell is anyone to tell anyone how the MUST intrepret anything.
2. Because some "expert" says that his work is good does not make it good no matter who they are. That is like saying I must believe in God and intrepret the bible a certain way because the Pope said so.
3. Free thinking was discouraged and not incouraged. If you didn't come to the prof's conclusions then they were wrong. I didn't like his works, I don't think he could write his name without help, and the drivel that he gave the world lessened it.

Questions that you get wrong when they ask your opinion are bullshit propoganda ones and that was the type asked.


ah but ken---we are still left wondering what is the objection to Shakespeare. what you voiced there are objections to the teacher and/or his methods, not shakespeare...

dc---I just noticed you wrote the same thing I did...

im not a big fan of Shakespeare, at least independent from a more learned initiate helping me through him, so im genuinely curious...




Aylee -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 3:06:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

1 Mandatory reading and understanding in the same manner as directed by the teacher is bullshit. My intrepretation differed. Who the hell is anyone to tell anyone how the MUST intrepret anything.
2. Because some "expert" says that his work is good does not make it good no matter who they are. That is like saying I must believe in God and intrepret the bible a certain way because the Pope said so.
3. Free thinking was discouraged and not incouraged. If you didn't come to the prof's conclusions then they were wrong. I didn't like his works, I don't think he could write his name without help, and the drivel that he gave the world lessened it.

You certainly have the right to dislike any writer you choose. And I think Shakespeare is often taught abominably. Plays are meant to be performed and seen, not trudged through in a textbook. D.C. is blessed with an incredible Shakespeare Theatre, and seeing its brilliant productions, even when I disagree with the artistic choices, is night and day from my high school English classes.

All that said, I can't help noticing that your three-point answer contains no substantive comment on the Bard's actual merits. Perhaps your prof noticed that too?

Have you ever tried the film versions of Henry V (Branagh) and Richard III (McKellen)?


Some of his plays seem written by a committee. Such as, "as you like it."




KenDckey -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 3:09:43 PM)

I don't remember seeing them. May have.




thompsonx -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 3:09:55 PM)


ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I have had professors that would flunk you if you failed to agree with their point of view.


When you refuse to accept that 2+2=4 you get flunked[8|]why is that so difficult for you to see?

Some say that Shakespere was a good writer.


You are full of shit...not some but most of the english speaking world think he is exellent. Thus the reason his work has endured for hundreds of years.


I ddn't agree and my grade reflected it.

You were a dick in his class just like you are here so you got what you deserved.

My reasoning didn't matter.

Just like it doesnt matter here it is always fatuous.

Did I get a well rounded education that way no.

You got exactly what you sought.




I think that Piscao was on LSD and his art reflected that.


Tell us about your most interesting lsd trip. Because if you have not been on one how could you possibly recognize the work of someone who was?


Do college profs appreciate my point of view.

No one appreciates your puerile point of view.



No. I had a speech teacher that thought all speeches had to have foot notes where you quoted and cited that quote to do humor.


Traffic laws require you to drive on the rt side of the street. The rules for college level classes are simple and straight forward. That you want to do it your way is why you got the grade.

Pulling funding is one way.

Lets fuck the college because you failed a class.

Fireing these people is another

You are not a professor. You are a student going to school to learn. Yet you think you know more than the professor. Why wernt you teaching the class? The reason is you dont know shit.


they aren't doing the students any good.


How many other students in your class failed?[8|]




thompsonx -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 3:14:56 PM)

as a related aside---did you all hear the recent news that 96% of faculty at cornell donated to (if i am remembering rightly)

Is it even possible that you could post something that you could validate? Why is it always some sniviling about the actual source[8|]



the democratic party. the o'reilly factor sent jesse watters up to the campus to question the students about that, and watters got kicked off the campus.

Why do you feel that college campuses are like walmart stores, open to any fool who wants to walk on and make a pain in the ass out of themselves?




thompsonx -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 3:16:42 PM)

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I don't remember seeing them. May have.


If you do not like shakespear why would you have spent money to watch a movie of one of his plays?




bounty44 -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 3:28:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

as a related aside---did you all hear the recent news that 96% of faculty at cornell donated to (if i am remembering rightly)

Is it even possible that you could post something that you could validate? Why is it always some sniviling about the actual source[8|]



the democratic party. the o'reilly factor sent jesse watters up to the campus to question the students about that, and watters got kicked off the campus.

Why do you feel that college campuses are like walmart stores, open to any fool who wants to walk on and make a pain in the ass out of themselves?



I remember when my grandfather was dying from Alzheimer's---every once in a while I would spend the night with him. one night, in a moment of lucidity, he was able to recognize what was going on with him and he told me "I hate this"---

it strikes me that you lack the same lucidity to recognize what an absolute troll you are and therefore, unfortunately, continue to make a douche canoe out of yourself with your incredibly inane comments and questions.

while you contemplate that---

quote:

Of the nearly $600,000 Cornell’s faculty donated to political candidates or parties in the past four years, over 96 percent has gone to fund Democratic campaigns, while only 15 of the 323 donors gave to conservative causes.

The Sun’s analysis of Federal Election Committee data reveals that from 2011 to 2014, Cornell’s faculty donated $573,659 to Democrats, $16,360 to Republicans and $2,950 to Independents. Each of Cornell’s 13 schools — both graduate and undergraduate — slanted heavily to the left. In the College of Arts and Sciences, 99 percent of the $183,644 donated went to liberal campaigns.


http://winteryknight.com/2015/10/21/96-of-political-donations-by-cornell-university-faculty-go-to-democrats/

and as to your latter inanity, which isn't even legitimately formed---ive spent most of my adult life on college campuses, they are generally "supposed" to be places where free exchanges of ideas take place. jesse waters interviewing willing students, on their own free time, hardly qualifies him as a "pain in the ass." the more likely story is that cornell didn't want the story to have a larger audience.




thompsonx -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 3:43:09 PM)

ORIGINAL: bounty44

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

as a related aside---did you all hear the recent news that 96% of faculty at cornell donated to (if i am remembering rightly)

Is it even possible that you could post something that you could validate? Why is it always some sniviling about the actual source[8|]



the democratic party. the o'reilly factor sent jesse watters up to the campus to question the students about that, and watters got kicked off the campus.

Why do you feel that college campuses are like walmart stores, open to any fool who wants to walk on and make a pain in the ass out of themselves?





it strikes me that you lack the same lucidity to recognize what an absolute troll you are and therefore, unfortunately, continue to make an ass out of yourself with your incredibly inane comments and questions.

You lack the luciatity to recognize what an absolute fool you are when you try to pass off "possible recolections" as fact. So either start validating your "recolections" or expect me to point out your lack of lucidity.[8|]




tweakabelle -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 10:47:43 PM)

The ideal of a university is a place where the free exchange of ideas occurs. So Obama's observations in the OP seem to be pretty spot on to me.

The university that employs me (for better or worse) doesn't always live up to this ideal, a matter that saddens me. My view is that better ideas don't need any external assistance to win the day, and preventing someone with differing ideas from airing those views concedes the argument to them without any talking taking place. My students are taught that they can propose any argument they please, provided it is supported by good evidence and constructed cogently. Their work is marked accordingly.

However we really ought to be clear that the free exchange of ideas doesn't cover hate speech, incitement to hate and violence and the like. Students do have a right to a safe environment and universities have an obligation (both legal and moral) to ensure the safety of their students and staff. . It is perfectly acceptable to critique any of the various political choices that students or staff may make. It is not reasonable to attack the identities of students, their lifestyle choices or their various cultural/ethnic heritages. Bigotry doesn't have an automatic right to be heard.

If in doubt about the difference the golden rule is respect. If people can't work that out, I wonder if a university is the appropriate environment for them.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Intetesting Take From Obama (11/7/2015 11:27:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I think that Piscao was on LSD and his art reflected that. Do college profs appreciate my point of view. No.

LSD wasn't synthesized until 1938. Most of Picasso's works predate that.

I think that ignorant students should have lower grades.




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