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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 1:50:44 PM   
bounty44


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Status: offline 		I don't see the usa as being in the "imperialistic" category of the other nations you mentioned from the previous couple of centuries.

but that said, without addressing whether or not western nations' citizens believe that we're in it for the good of the world---I would put forth that my understanding of islam is very consistent with what I posted above and for the most part, if folks don't believe that is their goal, those folks are missing something vital and essential to islam. I don't mean that to only signify the terrorist types, but rather the broader, and conservative aspects of islam.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 11/14/2015 1:52:03 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 1:56:10 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

I don't see the usa as being in the "imperialistic" category of the other nations you mentioned from the previous couple of centuries.

but that said, without addressing whether or not western nations' citizens believe that we're in it for the good of the world---I would put forth that my understanding of islam is very consistent with what I posted above and for the most part, if folks don't believe that is their goal, those folks are missing something vital and essential to islam.



You and I could talk all day about what category the United States falls into or what the true goal of Islam is.

But, boil it down to its bones and all you have the is the evidence of human behaviour.

Human behaviour as we all know it is that the United States invades countries, England invades countries, other Western nations invade countries.

Muslim nations tend not to invade countries by comparison.

Now, I suppose you could use the measure of your theory of 'the true nature of Islam', but were we to concentrate on reality there is no other conclusion than the people trying to dominate this world through whatever means necessary, including violent means if need be, are: the United States, England and associates.

And, that is an inescapable fact that some people seem to be incapable of squaring upto.


< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 11/14/2015 1:57:19 PM >

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 2:05:34 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		What we should no longer do is make excuses for the 1.65 billion that through inaction encourage the radical element of their religion to continue the slaughter of innocents.

How many more threads such as these will we have... How many more times will you defend the religion that produces these dark age uncivilized murderers... Will it take a love one of yours slaughtered to change your mind?

We need to demand that Islam through the powers of the religious states in the Muslim world stand up together and excise the radical element from their theocracy's. They need to educate and guide their children and turn them away from radicalism and universally condemn those that don't. Then we need to support them in this endeavor.

Butch

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 2:06:01 PM   
epiphiny43


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Status: offline 		More important to the mind set of the present Jihadist terrorists, the Imperialism of the West isn't their military adventures,. Though that's quite a target rich field. But the economic and cultural values Imperialism of Western consumer products, media values (Hollywood movies and TV) and general cultural world view that the historically unprecedented Globalization of corporate and entrepreneurial salesmanship that is currently engulfing all of Islam and everywhere else. Our soldiers, drones and surveillance are bad enough. It's the smart phones and internet consumer garbage their kids are swimming in that is drowning out traditional Koran messages and values that are the real burr under their saddles.

Just to add more fuel to the fire, traditional Islamic blaming of women for the sexual motives of men runs directly counter to the messages of feminism and individual equality the West spreads, and half their population finds liberating. A woman is evil if she distracts men from contemplating the Scriptures by showing her hair, but a rich Sheik isn't responsible for unholy desires of others when he parades his riches in front of beggars and the starving. Odd dichotomy till you look at who sets the rules, men and the rich.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 11/14/2015 2:11:07 PM >

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 2:11:41 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What we should no longer do is make excuses for the 1.65 billion that through inaction encourage the radical element of their religion to continue the slaughter of innocents.


Right, OK - no excuses. So what do you propose we do about them, Butch? All those 1.65 billion? I understand, totally and completely, fully and wholly, entirely and absolutely, that we should move past "all this PC stuff" that right wing turds like to bleat about about with relentless, smug insistence. So, OK, assuming we've got past all that - *what do we do about those 1.65 billion Muslims*? What do you propose?

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 2:15:09 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

More important to the mind set of the present Jihadist terrorists, the Imperialism of the West isn't their military adventures,. Though that's quite a target rich field. But the economic and cultural values Imperialism of Western consumer products, media values (Hollywood movies and TV) and general cultural world view that the historically unprecedented Globalization of corporate and entrepreneurial salesmanship that is currently engulfing all of Islam and everywhere else. Our soldiers, drones and surveillance are bad enough. It's the smart phones and internet consumer garbage their kids are swimming in that is drowning out traditional Koran messages and values that are the real burr under their saddles.



The first age of Globalisation was in the years leading upto WW1, and in many ways people were far more free than they were today.

There were problems during that age of globalisation so I suppose you could find common ground there.

But then there have usually been problems in the Middle East, before the age of telephones and the internet and Consumerism.

These problems always involved Western nations setting up shop in their countries: internet, Consumerism or otherwise.



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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 2:21:14 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I told you what I propose... we have the power to demand it... for now anyway. If we cannot get the UN to do it then we need to form coalitions with the economic power to force the world of Islam to crack down on the radicals within.

Imagine if the western world, and I would guess even Russia and China would at least abstain if not join in, would use their economic power to force change in the Muslim theocracies. We could easily isolate them, as we did with Iran, and force change in their societies... We don't need bombs... the ISS do not live in a vacuum... they do not have the industry to produce weapons of war... they are receiving massive support both financially and militarily... If this support is dried up it will be hard to kill with rocks and ideologies.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/14/2015 2:24:04 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 2:21:55 PM   
epiphiny43


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Status: offline 		Aren't the 1.65 billion Muslims doing exactly what almost all Americans are doing about the NSA and the secret detention camps the US is illegally running? Squat, about what they have little or no control of? How do small shop keepers and poor farmers change internationally funded radical Fundamentalism? Most everyone who doesn't have their hands on the levers of power is struggling to make ends meet and have something approaching a decent life. What we see in the US is mirrored everywhere else. Individual greed and short term gain trumps strategic planning for the future of the planet, the country and the religion. Bitching online hardly tilts the affairs of nations.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 2:35:14 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

I told you what I propose... we have the power to demand it... for now anyway. If we cannot get the UN to do it then we need to form coalitions with the economic power to force the world of Islam to crack down on the radicals within.


Why would you think that the 'world of Islam' - whatever picture you have of that and however the hell you think it might work - could *do* that? And if it could be done, why do you think it hasn't been done already?

If you continue to think of ISIL as some sub-branch of Islam, that the rest of Islam has some even hypothetical, notional, control over - you'll never understand this problem, Butch. Please *for god's sake* stop going on about ISIL as though it's just some offshoot of Islam. Only inanity lies at the end of that route of reasoning. ISIL butchers, tortures and kills Muslims more than it does anyone else of any other religion. Why would ISIL give a toss about what Muslims in general want?

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 2:41:56 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

This is an often repeated argument just as Peon says…but this statement in itself is self condemning. Just as with the proliferation of guns in American which is the obvious cause of so much death and injury…so is the obvious proliferation of radicalism in the Muslim religion.

It does amuse me how Peon and others rant on about guns in American yet continue to deny the obvious problems in the Muslim religion. They condemn, rightly in my opinion, those that deny the problems with the killing of innocents with the careless use and availability of guns. Yet crucify those that point out the lack of responsibility of Muslims to control the radicals among them.

There have been too many arguments over the small radical part of Islam… too often so called moderate Muslims must be defended on these boards… Muslims need to defend themselves by killing the radicalism in their religion. Because if they don’t… they are guilty just as you say.

Butch


Are all Christians responsible for Christian terrorism?
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men

It's an attack by ISIS, a group presenting itself as a country. So go to war with them--not, for example, Indonesia, simply because they're Muslim, or the US, because 5% of the country is Muslim.

Nor, as some are posting, is anyone saying "coddle them" or "they're misunderstood" or "we shouldn't go after them."

Just that "them" isn't 20% of the world's population scattered all over the globe. And yes, if anyone whos thinks that *is* them has filled the space reserved for "ability to reason" with "ignorance, bias, racism and xenophobia."

Now...we ready to simply go after the ISIS threat? Or are we too busy blaming others?

And by the way....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/tens-of-thousands-of-muslims-flee-christian-militias-in-central-african-republic/2014/02/07/5a1adbb2-9032-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 11/14/2015 2:44:13 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 2:54:57 PM   
bounty44


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Joined: 11/1/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

I don't see the usa as being in the "imperialistic" category of the other nations you mentioned from the previous couple of centuries.

but that said, without addressing whether or not western nations' citizens believe that we're in it for the good of the world---I would put forth that my understanding of islam is very consistent with what I posted above and for the most part, if folks don't believe that is their goal, those folks are missing something vital and essential to islam.



...but were we to concentrate on reality there is no other conclusion than the people trying to dominate this world through whatever means necessary, including violent means if need be, are: the United States, England and associates.

And, that is an inescapable fact that some people seem to be incapable of squaring upto.



its not a conclusion I come to, unless you include in your idea a sort of cultural and social/political imperialism that's spread through capitalism and the increasingly smaller world we live in, then I would buy into your description to a limited extent.

otherwise, if I am going to square up to anything, I would want a lot more evidence that on the world stage, we (and you) are the bad guys so to speak.


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 11/14/2015 3:00:34 PM >

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 3:00:48 PM   
adrift


Posts: 6
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Status: offline 		Muslim nations tend not to invade countries by comparison.

Say what????

(in reply to bounty44)
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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 3:02:43 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Are all Christians responsible for Christian terrorism


You bet we are...

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 3:04:20 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Music please read my posts again... I am not advocating war on Islamic nations... but i am saying we have the power to demand change.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 3:17:41 PM   
Dvr22999874


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Status: offline 		As a matter of interest, the Legion never tried to murder De Gaulle..............The O.A.S. tried any number of times to do so and yes, there were a number of EX_legionaires in that organisation. The Legion per se had no hand in in that though.

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 4:02:10 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: bounty44

I don't see the usa as being in the "imperialistic" category of the other nations you mentioned from the previous couple of centuries.

If one compares a map of the usa in 1789 with today it becomes pretty clear that the latter is somewhat larger than the former. Aside from alaska and and the virgin islands the rest of that territory was acquired by force of arms or the threat there of. That is the very definition of imperialism.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/14/2015 4:03:04 PM >

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 4:02:51 PM   
bounty44


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Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		ONE OF THE PARIS TERRORISTS WAS A MUSLIM MIGRANT WHO REGISTERED AS A REFUGEE IN GREECE SIX WEEKS AGO

also...

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/14/paris-terrorist-migrant-registered-refugee-greece/

as a small follow-up to the earlier exchange with northerngent, if anyone is interested---do a quick internet search for global caliphate, or islam and world domination, and you will find plenty to read.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 11/14/2015 4:15:03 PM >

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 4:10:34 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		My deepest sympathies and condolences to everyone who is suffering from this latest madness.

A couple of thoughts:

One. It is time for the human race to grow up and give up religion. It’s more trouble than it is worth. You don’t need religion to be moral. In fact it is easier to be moral without religion than with it for it is religion that demands that we hurt and kill in the name of nonsense.

Two. I am a fairly peaceful and affable guy. That is one reason I am reluctant to advocate war. Also, I can’t help but think that if I advocate war I am advocating that others be put at risk while I’ll will comfortably sit, warm and safe and with full belly, while watching it on the news. So, I am reluctant.

But there are lines. People have the right to peaceably enjoy their lives. There comes a point in time when enough is enough. The behavior of ISIS really is comparable to that of nazi Germany. It is time for the Western nations to join together in common cause and take this cancer out. It is time for NATO to plan and implement the destruction of ISIS using overwhelming military force (land, sea and air) short of nuclear weapons.

Enough is enough.


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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 4:11:16 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

As a matter of interest, the Legion never tried to murder De Gaulle..............The O.A.S. tried any number of times to do so and yes, there were a number of EX_legionaires in that organisation. The Legion per se had no hand in in that though.


The putsch of 61 was led by officers of the legion. The units directly involved in the putsch were the 1st and 2nd REP, the 1er REC and the 14th and 18th Regiments of Chasseurs Parachutistes.

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RE: Paris under attack - 11/14/2015 4:16:35 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		I told you what I propose... we have the power to demand it... for now anyway.

That power to demand did not work well in korea,viet nam, iraq or afghanistan....unless you believe the t.v. news.

(in reply to kdsub)
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