Turkey shooting down Russian Plane

Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (Full Version)

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Greta75 -> Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/24/2015 7:33:04 PM)
Just wow! Turkey claims the pilots are alive, and they are negotiating their release. ISIS claims they found the pilots and shot them both dead. Russia now insisting Turkey is in cahoots with ISIS. Interesting....

MrRodgers -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/25/2015 12:32:37 AM)
Putin claims it's a 'stab in the back' NATO says they will back Turkey if they go to war with Russia HERE

PeonForHer -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/25/2015 2:20:46 AM)
quote: Russia now insisting Turkey is in cahoots with ISIS. Not exactly - more like 'in cahoots with terrorists. Russia's position seems to be that any group opposing the Assad regime is terrorist. At every point this hideous balls-up threatens to turn into something even bigger and nastier than it already is.

MariaB -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/25/2015 2:21:50 AM)
Its not interesting, its fucking scary. The Russians had already been warned not to encroach on Turkish air space but chose to ignore those warnings. Russia has been concentrating its bombing campaign along Latakia province, the very place where the Turkmen tribal armies are holding out. The Turkish people are their allies and so when Russian activity in and around Turkish airspace occurs, it was bound to cause problems at some point. Regardless of how many seconds that Russian jet flew through Turkey, Russia is going to have to take political responsibility for this incident. This can only go two ways. Either Russia and Turkey meet half way to ensure this sort of incident can't happen again or the Kremlin turns against Turkey. If its the later, this incident involves NATO and that doesn't bare thinking about.

MrRodgers -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/25/2015 11:33:28 AM)
This just in, Russia has no intention of going to war with Turkey. I know I am relieved. I guess this means [they] will now fly around Turkish airspace.

NorthernGent -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/25/2015 12:18:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Just wow! Turkey claims the pilots are alive, and they are negotiating their release. ISIS claims they found the pilots and shot them both dead. Russia now insisting Turkey is in cahoots with ISIS. Interesting.... A pack of idiots the lot of 'em. The Russian, US, British and French governments causing problems that have nothing to do with the vast majority of people but said majority of people could potentially experience some disastrous consequences. Nothing interesting about this - it's absolutely pathetic that they can't just leave one another alone. Thing is the people making these decisions have absolutely no intention of being in the firing line when push comes to shove. They push the average person forward to do that job. Best thing you can do is not support it and keep your gob shut.

jlf1961 -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/25/2015 12:22:39 PM)
As far as conventional forces are concerned, IF, the shit hits the fan, we can pretty much expect to lose all of Europe up to the Rhine, maybe more, before NATO can deploy anything to stop them. Considering that Putin was a KGB hardliner during the Soviet Era, the UK can expect conventional air strikes that would make the blitz look like a minor inconvenience. The terrain in Turkey would slow ground forces, but Putin would not limit his moves just in that TO. When it comes to nuclear forces, current thoughts are that most of the land based ICBM's are on old delivery systems, and considering the economy in Russia, may not be up to par (some might blow up in the silos.) The Russian navy has suffered since the fall of the Soviet Union, with most of their nuke boats (aka Boomers and attack boats) pretty much scrap. Personally speaking, since the local Air Base has not been put back in the nuclear strike force, our number on the target list is very low, compared to Minot and Offut, so odds are we wont be on the first strike list, which would give me time to get my family and my firearms to my other property which happens to have an old Nike Ajax installation on it which could handle a near strike from a 1950's era nuke. Being the eternal optimist (I am 100% optimistic that the jackasses in power will fuck this situation up) I figure that if someone dont do some fast talking, 2/3rds of the planet's population will be toast before christmas.

mnottertail -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/25/2015 12:26:07 PM)
Putin will not go to war with the world over this. This is an aw shit moment for sure, but part and parcel of the agreements. The fog of war. I laugh when these armchair generals about speak of 'surgical strikes' and the like. It is messy shit.

NorthernGent -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/25/2015 12:30:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Considering that Putin was a KGB hardliner during the Soviet Era, the UK can expect conventional air strikes that would make the blitz look like a minor inconvenience. I doubt it very much. I think paranoia and fear, which is pretty much your trade, leads to mountains out of mole hills such as the Cold War and the like. I am 100% confident that Putin and associates have no intention of bothering England and probably couldn't a jot that there is a country called England out there somewhere. Although if backed into a corner they may respond in kind. The solution clearly is to stay out of it, which is pretty much always the solution, and by not bothering then they won't bother you.

jlf1961 -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/25/2015 1:20:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Considering that Putin was a KGB hardliner during the Soviet Era, the UK can expect conventional air strikes that would make the blitz look like a minor inconvenience. I doubt it very much. I think paranoia and fear, which is pretty much your trade, leads to mountains out of mole hills such as the Cold War and the like. I am 100% confident that Putin and associates have no intention of bothering England and probably couldn't a jot that there is a country called England out there somewhere. Although if backed into a corner they may respond in kind. The solution clearly is to stay out of it, which is pretty much always the solution, and by not bothering then they won't bother you. Actually, I am ex military, a child of the cold war era, and, unfortunately, know the common mentality of those jack asses who are still in charge of the military. As I said, I am a person that believes if someone can make a situation like this worse, they will. The only good news is that Trump is not in the white house.

Termyn8or -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/25/2015 9:12:42 PM)
I am Vlad Putin on Termy's PC. Remember the joke about the guy with the horse and just got married. They got on the horse the he stumbled and the guy said "that's once". Stumbled again and the guy said "That's twice". Third time he shot the horse and his new bride says "How could you shoot that poor horse like that ?" to which he replied "That's once". In you guys' terms it is like getting stopped for speeding going 75 in a 70 zone. And don't say we were going around looking for targets, we already knew where they are. T^T

tweakabelle -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/26/2015 5:49:14 AM)
There real issues between Russia and Turkey that precede this incident. IS's only supply lines are across the porous Turkish border. It is blocked by enemies in all other directions. So IS relies on Turks looking the other way when it comes to importing arms, war material and new recruits from across the world. It also relies on this trade route to export and sell its oil, which is one of the primary funding sources IS has. The Turks don't want to see IS defeated as it is likely that the area currently ruled by IS will be taken over by the Kurds who will then form the kind of semi-independent Kurdish enclave similar to the one that the Iraqi Kurds have been so successful in creating. Turkey fears this will end up with its Kurds demanding similar arrangements and is determined to deny Turkish Kurds any concessions. So it quite suits Turkish interests for IS to remain much as it is today. The Russians want to crush all and any opposition to Assad. That includes IS. So Turkish and Russian interests, as the Turks and Russians see them, are diametrically opposite. Hence the brinkmanship being shown by both sides here. Fortunately neither Turkey nor Russia wants to confront the other, so we can expect some kind of agreement to take the heat out of the situation. There's a lesson here: Not all those parties making loud noises about destroying IS have any intention of actually taking steps to destroy IS. So let's not be fooled by the rhetoric about destroying IS that we hear from Washington and London. If they really wanted to get rid of IS they could have done so long ago by forcing the Turks to close its borders and cease its trade with IS. For the West the goal is regime change in Damascus and nothing gets a higher priority than that, not even destroying a bunch of bloodthirsty animals like IS.

subrob1967 -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/26/2015 6:54:08 AM)
In Mother Russia Thanksgiving, Turkey shoots YOU!

RottenJohnny -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/26/2015 7:20:59 AM)
nm (pic upload isn't working)

jlf1961 -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/26/2015 5:18:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There real issues between Russia and Turkey that precede this incident. IS's only supply lines are across the porous Turkish border. It is blocked by enemies in all other directions. So IS relies on Turks looking the other way when it comes to importing arms, war material and new recruits from across the world. It also relies on this trade route to export and sell its oil, which is one of the primary funding sources IS has. The Turks don't want to see IS defeated as it is likely that the area currently ruled by IS will be taken over by the Kurds who will then form the kind of semi-independent Kurdish enclave similar to the one that the Iraqi Kurds have been so successful in creating. Turkey fears this will end up with its Kurds demanding similar arrangements and is determined to deny Turkish Kurds any concessions. So it quite suits Turkish interests for IS to remain much as it is today. The Russians want to crush all and any opposition to Assad. That includes IS. So Turkish and Russian interests, as the Turks and Russians see them, are diametrically opposite. Hence the brinkmanship being shown by both sides here. Fortunately neither Turkey nor Russia wants to confront the other, so we can expect some kind of agreement to take the heat out of the situation. There's a lesson here: Not all those parties making loud noises about destroying IS have any intention of actually taking steps to destroy IS. So let's not be fooled by the rhetoric about destroying IS that we hear from Washington and London. If they really wanted to get rid of IS they could have done so long ago by forcing the Turks to close its borders and cease its trade with IS. For the West the goal is regime change in Damascus and nothing gets a higher priority than that, not even destroying a bunch of bloodthirsty animals like IS. Please provide proof of this, since currently, ISIS is not controlling the area that the Russians are bombing.

Tkman117 -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/26/2015 5:26:42 PM)
FR Personally it feels like there was a communication issue here. The Russians didn't hear the Turk transmission, and the Turks are adamant they sent it. I want to give both sides the benefit of the doubt on this one but maybe I'm just being naive.

thompsonx -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/26/2015 6:02:14 PM)
Fr: Turkey imports 55% of it't natural gas and 30% of it's oil from russia. Turkey imports 30% of it's wheat from russia. Who would go to war with someone who can turn off the fuel tap and close the larder?

tweakabelle -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/26/2015 10:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There real issues between Russia and Turkey that precede this incident. IS's only supply lines are across the porous Turkish border. It is blocked by enemies in all other directions. So IS relies on Turks looking the other way when it comes to importing arms, war material and new recruits from across the world. It also relies on this trade route to export and sell its oil, which is one of the primary funding sources IS has. The Turks don't want to see IS defeated as it is likely that the area currently ruled by IS will be taken over by the Kurds who will then form the kind of semi-independent Kurdish enclave similar to the one that the Iraqi Kurds have been so successful in creating. Turkey fears this will end up with its Kurds demanding similar arrangements and is determined to deny Turkish Kurds any concessions. So it quite suits Turkish interests for IS to remain much as it is today. The Russians want to crush all and any opposition to Assad. That includes IS. So Turkish and Russian interests, as the Turks and Russians see them, are diametrically opposite. Hence the brinkmanship being shown by both sides here. Fortunately neither Turkey nor Russia wants to confront the other, so we can expect some kind of agreement to take the heat out of the situation. There's a lesson here: Not all those parties making loud noises about destroying IS have any intention of actually taking steps to destroy IS. So let's not be fooled by the rhetoric about destroying IS that we hear from Washington and London. If they really wanted to get rid of IS they could have done so long ago by forcing the Turks to close its borders and cease its trade with IS. For the West the goal is regime change in Damascus and nothing gets a higher priority than that, not even destroying a bunch of bloodthirsty animals like IS. Please provide proof of this, since currently, ISIS is not controlling the area that the Russians are bombing. The Russian strategy appears to be: First eliminate the non-IS Syrian opposition. By wiping out the non-IS Syrian opposition first, the Russians effectively wipe out all the alternatives to Assad acceptable to and supported by the West. The West would then be forced to choose between supporting IS or Assad. It would be impossible for the West to openly support IS. Assad would represent the lesser of two evils. This would mean that all active forces would be actively opposing IS. The eventual defeat of IS would complete the destruction of the Syrian opposition, ensuring Assad remains in power (the Russian's primary objective).

littleclip -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/26/2015 10:37:28 PM)
from what I have seen so far the pilot did not get the transmission could be not on the same frequency or similar security measure might need to get with turkey and get their frequency to prevent more mishaps just saying

jlf1961 -> RE: Turkey shooting down Russian Plane (11/26/2015 10:38:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There real issues between Russia and Turkey that precede this incident. IS's only supply lines are across the porous Turkish border. It is blocked by enemies in all other directions. So IS relies on Turks looking the other way when it comes to importing arms, war material and new recruits from across the world. It also relies on this trade route to export and sell its oil, which is one of the primary funding sources IS has. The Turks don't want to see IS defeated as it is likely that the area currently ruled by IS will be taken over by the Kurds who will then form the kind of semi-independent Kurdish enclave similar to the one that the Iraqi Kurds have been so successful in creating. Turkey fears this will end up with its Kurds demanding similar arrangements and is determined to deny Turkish Kurds any concessions. So it quite suits Turkish interests for IS to remain much as it is today. The Russians want to crush all and any opposition to Assad. That includes IS. So Turkish and Russian interests, as the Turks and Russians see them, are diametrically opposite. Hence the brinkmanship being shown by both sides here. Fortunately neither Turkey nor Russia wants to confront the other, so we can expect some kind of agreement to take the heat out of the situation. There's a lesson here: Not all those parties making loud noises about destroying IS have any intention of actually taking steps to destroy IS. So let's not be fooled by the rhetoric about destroying IS that we hear from Washington and London. If they really wanted to get rid of IS they could have done so long ago by forcing the Turks to close its borders and cease its trade with IS. For the West the goal is regime change in Damascus and nothing gets a higher priority than that, not even destroying a bunch of bloodthirsty animals like IS. Please provide proof of this, since currently, ISIS is not controlling the area that the Russians are bombing. The Russian strategy appears to be: First eliminate the non-IS Syrian opposition. By wiping out the non-IS Syrian opposition first, the Russians effectively wipe out all the alternatives to Assad acceptable to and supported by the West. The West would then be forced to choose between supporting IS or Assad. It would be impossible for the West to openly support IS. Assad would represent the lesser of two evils. This would mean that all active forces would be actively opposing IS. The eventual defeat of IS would complete the destruction of the Syrian opposition, ensuring Assad remains in power (the Russian's primary objective). I highlighted the two points I want you to provide links to prove this. The areas the Russians are bombing are not controlled by Kurds either. Let me help you out, the areas occupied by the Kurds are the border region between Iraq and Turkey, NOT, repeat, NOT the border region between Syria and Turkey. Now either provide links to support your argument, or come up with something new. As it stands you have the Kurds occupying a region that they have never really occupied. You also have the Turkish government supporting a group which is ideologically opposed to everything the Turkish government is known for.

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