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let me repeat this because it bears repeating, those killing in the name of islam are not islamic.

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Like many languages, Arabic has evolved over time and has more than one meaning.

From Wiki: Jihad (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد‎ jihād [dʒiˈhæːd]) is an Islamic term referring to the religious duty of Muslims to maintain the religion. In Arabic, the word jihād is a noun meaning the act of "striving, applying oneself, struggling, persevering". A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid, the plural of which is mujahideen (مجاهدين). The word jihad appears frequently in the Quran, often in the idiomatic expression "striving in the way of God (al-jihad fi sabil Allah)", to refer to the act of striving to serve the purposes of God on this earth.

Muslims and scholars do not all agree on its definition. Many observers—both Muslim and non-Muslim—as well as the Dictionary of Islam, talk of jihad having two meanings: an inner spiritual struggle (the "greater jihad"), and an outer physical struggle against the enemies of Islam (the "lesser jihad") which may take a violent or non-violent form. Jihad is often translated as "Holy War", although this term is controversial. According to orientalist Bernard Lewis, "the overwhelming majority of classical theologians, jurists", and specialists in the hadith "understood the obligation of jihad in a military sense." Javed Ahmad Ghamidi states that there is consensus among Islamic scholars that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against wrong doers. [emphasis mine]

And further: Within classical Islamic jurisprudence – the development of which is to be dated into the first few centuries after the prophet's death – jihad consisted of wars against unbelievers, apostates, and was the only form of warfare permissible. [emphasis mine]

Nothing that I have read would seem to corroborate your opening sentence; ie, pertaining to one's own inclination to sin. Everything appears to point to maintaining the religion or a war and is not a recent change of meaning, at least not within the recent millennia.

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ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Like many languages, Arabic has evolved over time and has more than one meaning.

From Wiki: Jihad (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد‎ jihād [dʒiˈhæːd]) is an Islamic term referring to the religious duty of Muslims to maintain the religion. In Arabic, the word jihād is a noun meaning the act of "striving, applying oneself, struggling, persevering". A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid, the plural of which is mujahideen (مجاهدين). The word jihad appears frequently in the Quran, often in the idiomatic expression "striving in the way of God (al-jihad fi sabil Allah)", to refer to the act of striving to serve the purposes of God on this earth.

Muslims and scholars do not all agree on its definition. Many observers—both Muslim and non-Muslim—as well as the Dictionary of Islam, talk of jihad having two meanings: an inner spiritual struggle (the "greater jihad"), and an outer physical struggle against the enemies of Islam (the "lesser jihad") which may take a violent or non-violent form. Jihad is often translated as "Holy War", although this term is controversial. According to orientalist Bernard Lewis, "the overwhelming majority of classical theologians, jurists", and specialists in the hadith "understood the obligation of jihad in a military sense." Javed Ahmad Ghamidi states that there is consensus among Islamic scholars that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against wrong doers. [emphasis mine]

And further: Within classical Islamic jurisprudence – the development of which is to be dated into the first few centuries after the prophet's death – jihad consisted of wars against unbelievers, apostates, and was the only form of warfare permissible. [emphasis mine]

Nothing that I have read would seem to corroborate your opening sentence; ie, pertaining to one's own inclination to sin. Everything appears to point to maintaining the religion or a war and is not a recent change of meaning, at least not within the recent millennia.

Bounty, think of the metaphor of society as person. That person (society) cuts off its right hand (criminals) in order to not corrupt society. I'm not saying this is what Matthew 5:30 is about. I WAS DEMONSTRATING HOW ANY RELIGION COULD BE CONTORTED for CRUSADES

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As for the greater and lesser Jihad[

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Bernard Lewis is one of the main Zionists used by the Bush administration to rationalize the middle east wars. Hard to get more biased than that.

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As for Ghamidi, notice he refers to jihad as an "armed struggle against WRONG DOERS"

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

As for greater and lesser jihad, I don't really give a rats ass about your definition. Whether its jordan, pakistan, saudi arabia, libya western countries have been subject to hundreds and thousands of jihadist attacks. Your definition is clearly not the vision that inspire more than 300 million muslims around the world.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

As for greater and lesser jihad, I don't really give a rats ass about your definition. Whether its jordan, pakistan, saudi arabia, libya western countries have been subject to hundreds and thousands of jihadist attacks. Your definition is clearly not the vision that inspire more than 300 million muslims around the world.

Omitted from this brief glimpse at history is the fact that just about every Arab/Muslim country from Pakistan to Morocco was the subject of brutal Western imperialism and colonisation over the past 150 years.

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It is precisely this kind of one sided heavily edited self serving version of events ...

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So you calling him a name defeats his the point

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ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
So you calling him a name defeats his the point

I am not calling him a name, it's simply fact. Even his Wikipedia page mentions his Zionism. Getting his opinion on Islam is like asking asking Red Sox and Yankee fans what they think about the other

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Bernard Lewis, "the overwhelming majority of classical theologians, jurists", and specialists in the hadith "understood the obligation of jihad in a military sense."

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ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

We countered his opinion repeatedly, you just choose to follow his interpretation

Stephen Hawking being white would not discredit his opinion on physics, but it might discredit him on what it means to be Chinese to a Chinese national. You are starting to reach further into lunacy than you usually do

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ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

We've gone over misconceptions of the greater and lesser jihads regarding sin and criminals and forgiveness as the best response to murder and you won't listen. Instead, you'll take the opinion of a Bush crony. Both Christianity and Islam have been contorted, but you won't get past your xenophobia. Why would there be crusades within Christianity? Did Muslims force the Catholic Church to do that too?

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2/3 republican voters in moderate new hampshire support a temporary ban on muslim immigration

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

We've gone over misconceptions of the greater and lesser jihads regarding sin and criminals and forgiveness as the best response to murder and you won't listen. Instead, you'll take the opinion of a Bush crony. Both Christianity and Islam have been contorted, but you won't get past your xenophobia. Why would there be crusades within Christianity? Did Muslims force the Catholic Church to do that too?

And we've gone over the countless exhortations to murder and terror
and the actual history of murder and terror

and you won't listen.

Facts are on my side so your only counter is once again a personal attack. Second time I'm noting you are not playing by the rules you proposed. Quit the personal attacks.

And.. on cheerier news today... 2/3 republican voters in moderate new hampshire support a temporary ban on muslim immigration.


Perhaps your world view really isn't shared by a majority of americans, eh?

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

We've gone over misconceptions of the greater and lesser jihads regarding sin and criminals and forgiveness as the best response to murder and you won't listen. Instead, you'll take the opinion of a Bush crony. Both Christianity and Islam have been contorted, but you won't get past your xenophobia. Why would there be crusades within Christianity? Did Muslims force the Catholic Church to do that too?

And we've gone over the countless exhortations to murder and terror
and the actual history of murder and terror

and you won't listen.

Facts are on my side so your only counter is once again a personal attack. Second time I'm noting you are not playing by the rules you proposed. Quit the personal attacks.

And.. on cheerier news today... 2/3 republican voters in moderate new hampshire support a temporary ban on muslim immigration.


Perhaps your world view really isn't shared by a majority of americans, eh?

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ORIGINAL: crazyml

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

We've gone over misconceptions of the greater and lesser jihads regarding sin and criminals and forgiveness as the best response to murder and you won't listen. Instead, you'll take the opinion of a Bush crony. Both Christianity and Islam have been contorted, but you won't get past your xenophobia. Why would there be crusades within Christianity? Did Muslims force the Catholic Church to do that too?

And we've gone over the countless exhortations to murder and terror
and the actual history of murder and terror

and you won't listen.

Facts are on my side so your only counter is once again a personal attack. Second time I'm noting you are not playing by the rules you proposed. Quit the personal attacks.

And.. on cheerier news today... 2/3 republican voters in moderate new hampshire support a temporary ban on muslim immigration.


Perhaps your world view really isn't shared by a majority of americans, eh?

The facts are on your side? Ok, how many innocent civilian citizens of America and its Allies have been killed by muslims since 2000. How many innocent muslims have been killed by America and its Allies since 2000?

How do those facts stack up?

The evidence you produce for asserting that a majority of Americans favour a ban on Muslim immigration isn't mathematically "strong"... two thirds of Republican voters aint a majority.

There is a fox news poll that claims that 55% of Americans support a ban. But yanno.... I can't help but be a little dubious. I wonder what the margin of error might be on that poll?

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

We've gone over misconceptions of the greater and lesser jihads regarding sin and criminals and forgiveness as the best response to murder and you won't listen. Instead, you'll take the opinion of a Bush crony. Both Christianity and Islam have been contorted, but you won't get past your xenophobia. Why would there be crusades within Christianity? Did Muslims force the Catholic Church to do that too?

And we've gone over the countless exhortations to murder and terror
and the actual history of murder and terror

and you won't listen.

Facts are on my side so your only counter is once again a personal attack. Second time I'm noting you are not playing by the rules you proposed. Quit the personal attacks.

And.. on cheerier news today... 2/3 republican voters in moderate new hampshire support a temporary ban on muslim immigration.


Perhaps your world view really isn't shared by a majority of americans, eh?

We have gone over this and that - but you still haven't responded to the fact that Western armies are in Arab/Muslim lands and have been there in various phases for the past century and more. There are no Arab/Muslim armies in Western lands.

A over view of the past century of Western-Arab/Muslim relations cannot avoid concluding that this is the salient fact around which all history is written and current actions are revolving. This places the first and primary responsibility for hostilities between Arabs/Muslims and the West firmly in the court of the aggressors - the West.

The message from the Arab/Muslim world is clear - please leave us alone. It almost seems trite to point out that given Western military and technological superiority, there would be little prospect of the roles being reversed in the event of a Western withdrawal and the West adopting a policy of non-intervention.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Well it does show that 2/3rds of new hampshire republicans are xenophobes but hey, like that is news.