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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 12:00:11 AM   
JVoV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

Lucy, I'm lost. What does any of these insane ramblings have to do with scientific evidence proving/disproving the Bible?



I have no idea what insanity you are rambling on about.

However the challenge I put on the table on the first page was for someone to demonstrate how or what genetics has to do with religion.

Do you have the answer because I have a really hard time stretching my imagination that far?


It's possible that genetic evidence could prove/disprove certain stories in the Bible. Not likely, since the women of conquered lands were taken as wives.

And paternity is a rather unreliable way to chart a family tree. But there's no Maury Povich standing by with paternity tests on all that begatting.

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 3:02:18 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Of course I believe in Flargledorpf.


Really? I don't, and I invented him. I don't, however, have a monumental edifice of reasoning behind my not believing him; I haven't thought about the matter for many years, I've read nothing at all about the matter - I just don't believe in him because it's a manifestly silly idea to believe in him.

I've come to notice that the one thing that religionists cannot tolerate is atheists finding their beliefs silly - their most central belief of all, that is: that there's this big thing in the sky, a controller, of some specified sort and with these or other characteristics. In many countries, people are locked up for expressing that. In a few, they'll even kill you for saying it. In the West, these days, it's increasingly coming under the heading of 'disrespecting' a religion and governments are becoming punitive about it. But - what the hell choice do I have? With some things, all I need to do - can do - is realise that something is silly - then move on with my life to think about other things.



You may be right but I think most people are going to be upset when anyone suggests any idea of theirs is silly. Human nature being what it is. I also think that's the reason so many athiests act like angry little children when people ignore their oh so sage advice about god. They just can't grasp the idea that they have told people there is no god and despite the fact that they keep crowing about how uber intelligent they are, people still ignore them and continue to worship. They have created huge websites going into detail about how every religion out there is wrong and people still don't listen to them. Must be very frustrating. Personally I am not sure why they care so much.

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 4:05:52 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

You may be right but I think most people are going to be upset when anyone suggests any idea of theirs is silly. Human nature being what it is. I also think that's the reason so many athiests act like angry little children when people ignore their oh so sage advice about god. They just can't grasp the idea that they have told people there is no god and despite the fact that they keep crowing about how uber intelligent they are, people still ignore them and continue to worship. They have created huge websites going into detail about how every religion out there is wrong and people still don't listen to them. Must be very frustrating. Personally I am not sure why they care so much.


They *don't* care, THB. But religionists really, really seem to need them to care. That's the true frustration in this whole thing and it belongs to the religionists. As for their being upset - well, not much we atheists can do about that. We just do find it silly and if they don't want to hear that, they're probably best advised not to ask in the first place.

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 5:35:01 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

[....] atheists usually lack the required intellectual development to understand that lack of belief in a deity is the same as the belief that no deity exists, which in philosophy is called trying to make a distinction where no difference exists.


I don't know whether a deity exists or not. I am open to the suggestion that one may exist but as of now I have not encountered any compelling reason to believe that one exists. My position is significantly different to that of a person who insists that no deity exists. I accept the possibility that a deity may exist, they deny this possibility categorically.

Therefore the claim you advance, and upon which your argument relies in this thread is invalid.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/22/2015 5:41:01 AM >

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 5:37:44 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

why dont you just concede that you are not the genius you thought you and you will not be the one to save the atheists from their own demise on the philosophical chopping block.

I asked that if you wish to reply to me that it be a serious argument not more of the same bullshit rhetoric.



I've come to realise that with your outlook there's only 'serious argument' - which will necessarily agree with your view - or there's 'bullshit rhetoric'. This ain't going anywhere.


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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 5:41:32 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

I am open to the suggestion that one may exist but as of now I have not encountered any compelling reason to believe that one exists.


I think that would still put you in the 'lack of belief' category for R0, Tweak, so you're as indoctrinated as everyone else, I'm afraid.

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 6:53:29 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well you are getting warmer!

Religion is like beliefs, everybody has one. I'm all for freedom from atheism!



Hey your freedom of religion means I can be free from religion, when was the last time an atheist knocked on your door and tried to convert you?



They tend to post on forums using descriptive pejoratives like 'sky pilot' to aid in pushing 'their beliefs' on those who do not believe in atheism, and then infiltrate the government and pass atheist laws to force people to believe and accept their religion.

In fact they are very unhappy with the 1st amendment which reserves my right to be free from atheists.




Where in the world are you getting this stuff ? A-theism is not a belief, it is...disbelief in a 'theism.' That's it, noting more or less.

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 6:53:36 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

[....] atheists usually lack the required intellectual development to understand that lack of belief in a deity is the same as the belief that no deity exists, which in philosophy is called trying to make a distinction where no difference exists.


I don't know whether a deity exists or not. I am open to the suggestion that one may exist but as of now I have not encountered any compelling reason to believe that one exists. My position is significantly different to that of a person who insists that no deity exists. I accept the possibility that a deity may exist, they deny this possibility categorically.

Therefore the claim you advance, and upon which your argument relies in this thread is invalid.



Actually, so far no evidence has shown the existence of a deity, should evidence arise, I'd be more than happy to reconsider my views, but oddly enough if somebody claims something exists, the burden of proof is on them, especially if they want others to subscribe to their belief and to accept a mere belief as reality.

I said repeatedly no beef with any religion, everybody should be able to worship whatever deity they want, they just don't get to force their religious laws on others. Which means I don't have to pray to Thor or Zeus if there is thunder and lightning, I don't have to take part in any rituals, be the Satanic, Christian or Muslim, I'm not stopping anybody from dancing around a golden calf, to each their own.

However there are remarkable few atheists or agnostics who have started wars trying to force others to stop worshipping, on the other hand religious people fighting each other about who's deity is better or which form the worship should take, which name to call the deity, that seems fairly common. Makes you wonder why some religious fanatics can't just go on quietly practising their religion, atheists and agnostics also don't go round knocking on people's doors, trying to convince them to give up religion, we just want the freedom of not having other people's religious views being shoved down our throats.

Seriously, I am trying to be polite to all those people who come knocking on my door and try to convince me to join their sects, I tell them "Thank you for your effort but I am not interested", just spent 15 minutes trying to tell the Latter-Day Saints that I am not interested in discussing the merits of their religion, that since it's raining I'd be asking them in for a cup of tea but please no religious talk, they kept waving their holy book and pamphlets at me and told me I too can go to heaven. I finally got rid of them by claiming the names of my Dobies are Satan, Damien and Luzifer, that did it. Why can't they just accept a "No thank you?"

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 6:57:45 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Please do show me ONE law where you are forced to give up your beliefs or to not worship whichever deity you see fit to worship?




Unilaterally applied federal commercial accommodation laws.



One example, if you can make it, stop the hoofwaffling, give a real example, nobody stops you from worshipping whatever you deem fit, all they do is stopping you from forcing your beliefs on others, which seems fair as they want the same freedom you have

Hey when Moses came down, his people were worshiping the Ram wasn't it ? Ok, at least some such shit.

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Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 7:01:13 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well you are getting warmer!

Religion is like beliefs, everybody has one. I'm all for freedom from atheism!



Hey your freedom of religion means I can be free from religion, when was the last time an atheist knocked on your door and tried to convert you?



They tend to post on forums using descriptive pejoratives like 'sky pilot' to aid in pushing 'their beliefs' on those who do not believe in atheism, and then infiltrate the government and pass atheist laws to force people to believe and accept their religion.

In fact they are very unhappy with the 1st amendment which reserves my right to be free from atheists.




Where in the world are you getting this stuff ? A-theism is not a belief, it is...disbelief in a 'theism.' That's it, noting more or less.



I think he possibly might be smoking some really not so medical substances, apparently he has no idea what atheism or agnosticism is or how things work. You can't force a non-belief on anybody, it's like if somebody claims there is a pig doing a handstand in a room, that person has to show evidence that there is, if I look into that room and there is no pig in there doing the handstand, I don't have to provide evidence that it's not there.
If I claim that I found a new solar system, the burden of proof is on me, not on the person who doesn't believe me and just refuses to accept my word for it.

It's a pretty simple concept but he seems to fail to grasp it.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 7:09:39 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


Hey when Moses came down, his people were worshiping the Ram wasn't it ? Ok, at least some such shit.



Having endured Catholic boarding school, their book claims it was a golden calf, being a bit interested in religion on a purely historical level, I think it was Aspis bull worship...

Though what I find quite telling was how their oh so merciful and loving deity reacted (or Moses thought he spoke for the deity) 'Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.' And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

So basically kill your own friends and family members if they don't pray to the same deity as you do... Yeah, religion is so peaceful

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 7:11:36 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
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Status: offline 		Let's simplify this. This is America and I am a orthodox capitalist, so I worship the dollar and kneel at the alter of profits. I mean really, is there anything more socially, economically, psychologically and ecumenically satisfying...then a profit ? NO !!

You see, I can't take it with me as when I die, I will go to sleep, I will not dream and I will...never wake up. Now where are those tax changes. I was just reading them ?

.....and yes, when my pastor got a nice shiny new Mercedes...I quit the church.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/22/2015 7:14:13 AM >

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 7:24:37 AM   
Cuckingcurious


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Status: offline 		Fun fact most sun gods in history were said to be born Dec 25th. It's the day the sun rises one degree north after winter solstice. It's the day that shows how the light defeats the dark or good vs evil. Santa Xmas trees and all the other bs had nothing to do with Xmas up until the last century I believe. Before then people went to church had a prayer and went home. Leave it up to the Germans to reinvent Xmas... Lol

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 7:26:38 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Let's simplify this. This is America and I am a orthodox capitalist, so I worship the dollar and kneel at the alter of profits. I mean really, is there anything more socially, economically, psychologically and ecumenically satisfying...then a profit ? NO !!

You see, I can't take it with me as when I die, I will go to sleep, I will not dream and I will...never wake up. Now where are those tax changes. I was just reading them ?

.....and yes, when my pastor got a nice shiny new Mercedes...I quit the church.



But you know you can show evidence of profit... Personally I can think of a few things that are more satisfying than profit, but then again it all depends, if I'd worry about a roof over my head and food on the table or how to pay bills, I'd possibly think different.

However I know that I don't need a priest to tell me to not mess with others, to not steal from them or to break up their relationships, if I donate to a charity, I'm not trying to buy my way into some obscure concept of afterlife, I do it because I simply care about others and want to do the right thing, not for a reward or absolution.

As for churches, yes their charitable arms should be tax exempt, if they are amassing wealth they should be taxed just like you and I are taxed on our assets.

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 12:39:49 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

[....] atheists usually lack the required intellectual development to understand that lack of belief in a deity is the same as the belief that no deity exists, which in philosophy is called trying to make a distinction where no difference exists.


I don't know whether a deity exists or not. I am open to the suggestion that one may exist but as of now I have not encountered any compelling reason to believe that one exists. My position is significantly different to that of a person who insists that no deity exists. I accept the possibility that a deity may exist, they deny this possibility categorically.

Therefore the claim you advance, and upon which your argument relies in this thread is invalid.


The claim I advanced was a response to a dispute by another member of my earlier statements. They are unable as in none of them are capable of advancing their claims against the claim I asserted. Apparently they are also illiterate since they seem to have a need to be taken in hand and walked through the process like I one needs to do to teach handicapped children.

That said:

The whole grade school argument that atheists by negatively stating 'lack of belief in the existence of God' has some kind of distinction from positively stating 'atheists believe there is no God' somehow absolves them of any responsibility or obligation and is most often used to promote their fanciful premise that atheism is not a religion because they lack belief is patently absurd if not a clear demonstration of a retarded intellect.

In fact this can be demonstrated ridiculously easy at a grade school level of intellect by simply examining the words and resultant meaning atheists conclude from those words.

An atheist believes there is no God or gods:

atheist n
1. (Philosophy) a person who does not believe in God or gods

an atheist believes God does not exist.

lack
noun: lack;

1. the state of being without or not having enough of something.


First the word 'lack' operates on the word belief not the word God which rules out the ['or' not having enough of] part of the definition, (as will be detailed later) leaving us with: the state of being entirely without which is binary and conforms with the atheist position there is no God.

However the atheist statement using lack is purely false since they do not lack a 'belief'.

On the contrary they most certainly possess a belief.

That belief is that there is no God.

Hence they do not 'lack belief'.

The lacking belief theory is their incredulous personal lie.

In linguistics and grammar, affirmative and negative are terms of opposite meaning which may be applied to statements, verb phrases, clauses, and some other utterances. Essentially an affirmative (positive) form is used to express the validity or truth of a basic assertion, while a negative form expresses its falsity.

There is no functional material difference between 'I do not believe your story' compared to 'I believe your story is incorrect'.

It is purely irrational to make a claim of 'no belief' [lack] when some sort of 'belief [either positive or negative] had to exist' to make the claim in the first place.

It should be obvious to even the most casual observer that there is no functional or material difference between 'I do not believe God exists' compared to 'I believe God does not exist' which is why none of the self proclaimed intellectual atheists here can lay out so much as one rational reasoned argument in support of their position. The only line of defense is the constant onslaught of 'strawman arguments' to distract attention away from that fact.


Now should one of these atheists who claim to 'lack' [belief] wish to claim part 2 of the definition applies, that they in fact really believe in just a little bit of God but lack 'full' belief then a completely different word now must apply, that word being agnostic.

ag·nos·tic
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics

1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

Their argument is purely binary.

No philosophy needed to destroy the atheists childish intellectually illiterate level of thought that is so prevalently nonsensically used by atheists as a get out of jail free card.


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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 12:43:02 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		You are so full of it, you haven't been able to give a single example where you are being stopped from worshipping whoever you want to worship

As for beliefs, if you claim something and you want others to believe that your belief is based in reality, the burden of proof is on you, simple as that, but apparently the laws of science are too high for you.

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 12:58:36 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I think it's all a bit BS, religion is like herpes, not a big deal, just don't go around and try to give it to others (especially me) and I'm cool with it


Religion serves a human need.

I'm personally not religious because I'm a seeing is believing type person, but at this juncture I would like to see more religion and less science in this world.

The last thing the human species needs is a load of people shouting about 'knowledge' being the be all and end all.


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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 1:24:19 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

I'm personally not religious because I'm a seeing is believing type person, but at this juncture I would like to see more religion and less science in this world
.

Hell's bells. You say that in spite of Christian fundamentalists' stranglehold on one side of the world and Islamic fundamentalism raising the real prospect of WW3 on the other? You and I are *not* in agreement on that view, NG.

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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 1:30:50 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

However the atheist statement using lack is purely false since they do not lack a 'belief'.


You can say that another five hundred times, put it in bolds, in capital letters and underline it - and all in a really, really big font, RO, but it will still be balls. As for your superior philosophical intellect and the rest of us being in grade school - oh please. You didn't even recognise the Socratic method when I gave you an example of it, and that's philosophy at little-league level. In all, what you've given us so far is just one great big dollop of smugness.


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RE: Fatal Flaws in Religion versus Genetic/historic/sci... - 12/22/2015 1:31:35 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I'm personally not religious because I'm a seeing is believing type person, but at this juncture I would like to see more religion and less science in this world
.

Hell's bells. You say that in spite of Christian fundamentalists' stranglehold on one side of the world and Islamic fundamentalism raising the real prospect of WW3 on the other? You and I are *not* in agreement on that view, NG.



I suppose you're talking about it from a politics perspective and I'm coming from an average person on the street angle.

I'm not concerned with what people are doing on the other side of the world.

I can only speak of the people I've met and I've found people who deem themselves to be religious much more interesting, charitable and humble company. In the sense of how they interact as a matter of course.


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