When Do You Stop Being A Refugee?

When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (Full Version)

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TieMeInKnottss -> When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 9:27:16 AM)
Just something that has popped up in my mind of late. The Israel/Palestine incident that really caused the refugee exodus would have been before I was born..back in the 1960s. I know that there were refugee camps in Syria, Jordan...and I knew people in college who were Palestinian and lived in Gaza and the West Bank. Most of these people would, by now, have had families. I am noticing that many people who are young and who were born in Syria or Jordan to refugee parents still call themselves "Palestinian refugees". Why? Leaving aside who has a valid "claim" to the Israel and Palestine region (because either way...you would have a displaced group), when are the descendants of refugees no longer "refugees". Example-how long will the Syrians who have fled be considered refugees? I understand that many who were born as Syrian citizens will probably always consider themselves refugees. The children being born in Europe, Lebanon, Jordan...are not really refugees. Wouldn't they be Lebanese, Jordanian, German, Italian? Some context here--my dad was born and raised in Spain. He fled during Franco's era. He could not go back until Franco's death, but, by then, he had settled here in the US, married my mom and had kids.. Even though he was not (at that time) a US citizen, we all were so he eventually (after about 15 yrs) became a US citizen. He considers himself American (specifically- a Spanish(born) American). Also, I know not every country automatically confers citizenship on those born on its soil.

BamaD -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 10:24:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss Just something that has popped up in my mind of late. The Israel/Palestine incident that really caused the refugee exodus would have been before I was born..back in the 1960s. I know that there were refugee camps in Syria, Jordan...and I knew people in college who were Palestinian and lived in Gaza and the West Bank. Most of these people would, by now, have had families. I am noticing that many people who are young and who were born in Syria or Jordan to refugee parents still call themselves "Palestinian refugees". Why? Leaving aside who has a valid "claim" to the Israel and Palestine region (because either way...you would have a displaced group), when are the descendants of refugees no longer "refugees". Example-how long will the Syrians who have fled be considered refugees? I understand that many who were born as Syrian citizens will probably always consider themselves refugees. The children being born in Europe, Lebanon, Jordan...are not really refugees. Wouldn't they be Lebanese, Jordanian, German, Italian? Some context here--my dad was born and raised in Spain. He fled during Franco's era. He could not go back until Franco's death, but, by then, he had settled here in the US, married my mom and had kids.. Even though he was not (at that time) a US citizen, we all were so he eventually (after about 15 yrs) became a US citizen. He considers himself American (specifically- a Spanish(born) American). Also, I know not every country automatically confers citizenship on those born on its soil. Actually it goes back to the 40's when Isreal got their independence the Arabs istantly declared war on them. They told the Arabs in israel to leave and that in a few days, after they had destroed Israel they could go back. That is when they formed the "refugee" camps. Since that form a pool of resentment they used them as a weapon against Israel and have never made a serious attempt to assimulate them. 90 years and they still think of themselves as refugees.

CreativeDominant -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 11:15:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss Just something that has popped up in my mind of late. The Israel/Palestine incident that really caused the refugee exodus would have been before I was born..back in the 1960s. I know that there were refugee camps in Syria, Jordan...and I knew people in college who were Palestinian and lived in Gaza and the West Bank. Most of these people would, by now, have had families. I am noticing that many people who are young and who were born in Syria or Jordan to refugee parents still call themselves "Palestinian refugees". Why? Leaving aside who has a valid "claim" to the Israel and Palestine region (because either way...you would have a displaced group), when are the descendants of refugees no longer "refugees". Example-how long will the Syrians who have fled be considered refugees? I understand that many who were born as Syrian citizens will probably always consider themselves refugees. The children being born in Europe, Lebanon, Jordan...are not really refugees. Wouldn't they be Lebanese, Jordanian, German, Italian? Some context here--my dad was born and raised in Spain. He fled during Franco's era. He could not go back until Franco's death, but, by then, he had settled here in the US, married my mom and had kids.. Even though he was not (at that time) a US citizen, we all were so he eventually (after about 15 yrs) became a US citizen. He considers himself American (specifically- a Spanish(born) American). Also, I know not every country automatically confers citizenship on those born on its soil. Actually it goes back to the 40's when Isreal got their independence the Arabs istantly declared war on them. They told the Arabs in israel to leave and that in a few days, after they had destroed Israel they could go back. That is when they formed the "refugee" camps. Since that form a pool of resentment they used them as a weapon against Israel and have never made a serious attempt to assimulate them. 90 years and they still think of themselves as refugees. Shhhhhhh...the Palestinians are never wrong.

KenDckey -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 11:16:52 AM)
Even before that, the majority of Jews went to refugee camps and Isreal where they were promised a homeland by Europeans, and the Europeans limited the numbers allowed into what was called Palestine at the time. I believe, that when the flood of Jews came off the boat, great numbers were issued weapons and sent to the front once the war started. This is a reasonable depiction of displaced persons from WWII including more than just Jews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displaced_persons_camp

BamaD -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 12:03:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Even before that, the majority of Jews went to refugee camps and Isreal where they were promised a homeland by Europeans, and the Europeans limited the numbers allowed into what was called Palestine at the time. I believe, that when the flood of Jews came off the boat, great numbers were issued weapons and sent to the front once the war started. This is a reasonable depiction of displaced persons from WWII including more than just Jews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displaced_persons_camp Yes, but the Jews aren't still in the camps and they don't still consider themselves to be refugees.

NorthernGent -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 12:15:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss Also, I know not every country automatically confers citizenship on those born on its soil. Never, ever been the case in England. You could be born in Venezuela , lived there for 20 years, came here and providing you contribute you're in. Something to be proud of. Really good values that other places around the world simply do not agree with, including some countries in Europe. In terms of when you stop being a refugee? Can't speak for the experience of someone fleeing a country or moving for economic reasons, but I think that providing a person contributes to what we're trying to achieve then you're one of us and this is quite rightly your home. My ancestors are a mix of Welsh, Scottish, Cornish and from different parts of England, but I was born in England, lived here all my life; and so I've been very fortunate to have a stable life. I suppose it depends from country to country but here providing you're contributing not many people cares where you came from and what your past problems have been, so I suppose for us you're no longer a refugee when you do something useful in our country.

KenDckey -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 12:15:33 PM)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/jew_refugees.html Yeah, they have pretty much immigrated to Israel.

NorthernGent -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 12:26:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Even before that, the majority of Jews went to refugee camps and Isreal where they were promised a homeland by Europeans, and the Europeans limited the numbers allowed into what was called Palestine at the time. I believe, that when the flood of Jews came off the boat, great numbers were issued weapons and sent to the front once the war started. This is a reasonable depiction of displaced persons from WWII including more than just Jews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displaced_persons_camp I like Eastern Europe as a place to visit. The architecture is out of this world and is a big attraction for me. I'm also a fan of museums, so while I'm there I'll take in a few. I've been to museums in Jewish quarters in the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary and Germany. The common theme in these museums and in pretty much every history book you care to pick up, Eastern European Jews considered themselves to be Polish or Czech first and Jewish second. It is a common misconception that the majority of Jewish people wanted this place somewhere because they were 'Jews'. They, and this should be an obvious statement, were subject to the same Nationalistic influences as any other group of human beings. The reason they left Czechoslovakia and Poland and such places after WW2? Because they were chased out. Even after everything that had happened. It is a source of shame in the Czech Republic that even after what had happened they couldn't show those people charity and instead hounded them out of the country. 'They' weren't promised a homeland by Europeans; 'they' were chased out of a lot of these places with a traditional large Jewish population. These days many Jews have returned to Europe. Continental Europe. The Jewish population of England weren't chased out, in fact they were given homes here. But, it is a strange thing that those Jewish people returning to Europe choose places such as Germany and Eastern Europe rather than say England where there weren't any pogroms and the like. That's a strange thing.

Termyn8or -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 1:28:40 PM)
"Actually it goes back to the 40's when Isreal got their independence the Arabs istantly declared war on them. " I don't know about others, but when you invade a land and take it over and displace the people who were there, that can hardly be called "gaining your independence". It is called "conquering". I am not going to go into who belongs on that land, I don't much care anymore. They say they own it because of a book of fiction, albeit with a few morals to the story and actual facts and insight here and there. Except for Leviticus, he was as crazy as, well, Hamurabi would be a good comparison. The bottom line is that the Jews are no more going to leave Israel than we are going to leave the US. It was wrong to take the land and fuck over the natives but what's done is done. At least we stopped fucking with the natives here. For a while they were even exempted from our drug laws so they could do a bunch of peyote (natural mescaline) and crawl into a hole and have a vision. (tell you what, the first time I did mescaline my friends purposely left me alone, it was a trip, unlike when you get high and go to a concert or something, it was an experience) At any rate, the US government creates refugees. Meddling in the affairs of other countries. The US, UK and Israel have become the axis of evil, forcefully bestowing their control of natural resources and banking on the world. These entities started the shit in Ukraine (we know now), Syria, imposed our dictators in Iraq and previously in Iran, Saudi Arabia as well as other countries, and a century ago in a bunch of countries in South America. We let them even put their name on the countries, like Rhodesia, named after a "leader" like "leaders" like the house of Saud. However, I do not feel guilt. That means I especially do not feel guilt for what others do, whether they do it in my name or not. I didn't tell them to do it so therefore I believe we should not take in any more people. We have enough. People in other countries counter with that our population density is so low. Yeah, well I like it that way and I would prefer half the people here get lost. More than half. I don't care if Europe is stacked like a can of sardines, that is their fucking problem, and I personally think enough of their problems have already followed us here. And this government does exactly what the founders of this country broke away from. (I do not call them "Fathers", I think that is stupid term to use in that situ) People in Australia call the founders of this country tax evaders. Of course they are so socialistic and authoritarian thralled that their opinion means nothing to most of us. They say we should give up our guns. Let's hope a croc eats them. Stand there and watch the croc eat your kid, after you turned your gun in to the government. Not that I would personally enjoy it, but it would smarten them up. Now congressmen and whoever in the US government who want to take them, I DO want to see their kids eaten by a wild animal. They are not Australians, they are not ruling over a sane and safe society and they should fucking know it. T^T

Termyn8or -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 1:35:42 PM)
"The common theme in these museums and in pretty much every history book you care to pick up, Eastern European Jews considered themselves to be Polish or Czech first and Jewish second. " I herd different, from old people and people who were there. The Jews invented the term "Polak" as a derogatory term. And then they joked that "You Polaks own the streets, but we own everything else". That is why the Katyn forest massacre happened, it was originally blamed on the Germans but it came out later (like the USS Liberty) that the Russians did it. They were very pro Jew and the people they threw in the ground there were those who would not cooperate, who actually consider Hitler as doing them a favor. What they put in museums is not necessarily true. T^T

blnymph -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 1:47:54 PM)
you seem to believe every nonsense that fits your view of things "Polak" means Pole ... in Polish

NorthernGent -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 2:19:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "The common theme in these museums and in pretty much every history book you care to pick up, Eastern European Jews considered themselves to be Polish or Czech first and Jewish second. " I herd different, from old people and people who were there. The Jews invented the term "Polak" as a derogatory term. And then they joked that "You Polaks own the streets, but we own everything else". That is why the Katyn forest massacre happened, it was originally blamed on the Germans but it came out later (like the USS Liberty) that the Russians did it. They were very pro Jew and the people they threw in the ground there were those who would not cooperate, who actually consider Hitler as doing them a favor. What they put in museums is not necessarily true. T^T The obvious, historical problem with this is that the Jewish population in places such as Poland and Russia didn't own very much at all and were routinely hounded by the authorities. The Jewish population lived in 'the shetl', dictated to them by the authorities in what was pretty much a series of ghettos. They were treated as second class citizens, and it wasn't uncommon for any outbreak of violence, whether anything to do with the Jewish population or not; to turn into smashing up Jewish property and killing Jews. The Russians were terrible for it. Wasn't the Katyn massacre to do with cleansing the Polish Intelligentsia? Not sure what it has to do with the Jewish population?

Termyn8or -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 3:09:35 PM)
""Polak" means Pole ... in Polish " Yeah, but they made it into a derogatory thing. "the Jewish population in places such as Poland and Russia didn't own very much at all and were routinely hounded by the authorities. " That is what they say. They also say the Rothschild family, with holding by the most conservative estimates are about $230 trillion (Credit Suisse), were textile merchants. Jews are very very good at business, and very intelligent. they often do succeed because of their own merit. but eventually like any group will get too big for its britches. And they do. "Give me control over the currency and I care not who makes the laws". How about the words to a song to iliustrate : Some folks are born, Silver spoon in hand, Lord don't they help themselves, But when the taxman comes to the door, The house looks like a rummage sale Take Krystahlnacht in Germany. Business owners were targeted, Jewish business owners. If they were so humble and lowly, how the fuck did they own so many businesses ? (also they had already declared a sort of "war": on Germany and was boycotting just about anyting they could) But are you saying Krystahlnacht was against paupers ? And of all the pogroms throughout the world, none of them were justified. that all of them were based on blind hate ? That a Pope condemned them for circumcising Christian slaves for no reason, because of course they are so morally superior they would never enslave anyone. That the Pharoh of Egypt said "Do not let a Hebrew sit on the throne of Egypt" for no fucking reason ? Because before that, Jews were prominent in the government. the problem was the wanted to get more prominent. The good Jews are good people and do actually add to the world's knowledge base and generally improve the human condition with technology and medicine and all that. but with that intelligence they are also extremely dangerous. they have the kind of things I was taught, about not getting caught. And notice I have not been caught. I know human nature, I know who they are and how they are. They are very similar to the Arabs they seem to hate so much. I bet that bugs them, and may be the impetus for some of their animousity. Not to discount those centuries of war of course... Bottom line, what we really need to spread around the world is birth control. Bill Gates should finance that if any girl is born and her Father does not have a job she gets a free Norplant. Do it in the US too. you do this if you are civilized people, rather than the coathanger or living in squalor like in the deep south where they get married at 12, or in those horrid third world countries that look good because of US foreign "aid" like Yemen where a 40 year old killed his 8 year old bride by consumating their marriage. Ripped her up inside. Can you imagine dying like that ? No, we must somehow make sure that our kids have kids AFTER they grow up. That they have useful skills and will not be on welfare. And that is something we should spread all around the world. the way they are doing it now will destroy the world. Like Bill Gates with the vaccines, dammit Bill, give them vaccines against pregnancy ! Save or feed, 2 now, 12 later, 144 later, 1,728 later... .... .... You are only exacerbating the problem. It is time to stop. Sorry. T^T

NorthernGent -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 3:13:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or That is what they say. No, it's not what they say. It is recorded historical fact that the Jewish people couldn't even choose where to live let alone anything else. It is recorded historical fact that outbreaks of wanton violence directed at the Jewish population were commonplace. These things are documented. 'Not what they say, and not what you would like to believe to fit your crazed 'it's all the bankers led by "The Jews"' theory of human civilisation.

Termyn8or -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 3:17:36 PM)
Recorded and documented do not equal proven. I could bring up my record to prove it. Like a business that keeps three sets of books. Your problem is you think these "authorities" are honest. T

Real0ne -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 3:22:37 PM)
gent confuses recorded historical propaganda with recorded historical fact as I have shown in virtually every thread

JVoV -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 4:20:13 PM)
FR: I think the only real answer is that you stop being a refugee when where you are can actually be called home, no matter how far away from that place you may have started. When you aren't being hunted anymore. When there's a peaceful night's sleep, instead of bombs going off. When the people around you treat you like a human being, regardless of where you came from and why you left. When you feel gratitude and allegiance to the land of your destination, though never losing hope for your place of origin. It's the same moment when you stop being a victim and start being a survivor.

Termyn8or -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 4:28:50 PM)
I must say that I agree JV. In the personal context. But I think what is being sought in the thread here is when your legal status changes. T^T

NorthernGent -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 4:34:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Recorded and documented do not equal proven. I could bring up my record to prove it. Like a business that keeps three sets of books. Your problem is you think these "authorities" are honest. T Well, world opinion is divided on the matter of the documented evidence with regard to the Nazis, "the bankers" and "the Jews". You two plus Mr Rogers think that the Nazis were a peaceful, unassuming lot set up by Britain, "the Jews", "the bankers", and this has led to "the US of K". The rest of the world disagrees.

Termyn8or -> RE: When Do You Stop Being A Refugee? (12/27/2015 5:34:11 PM)
"You two plus Mr Rogers think that the Nazis were a peaceful, unassuming lot set up by Britain, "the Jews", "the bankers", and this has led to "the US of K"." I do not think, nor have I ever said or written or typed that I thought the Nazis were peaceful. They were seriously pissed off after seeing their country brought nearly to ruins by people who were ACTUALLY inferior, and the fact that they got as far as they did proves that. However that does not mean they were right, or moral, or nice or kind. Nothing of the sort. They pretty much acted like the US government on steroids, except that they did the country alot of good and Germans still reap the benefits in industrialisation that Hitler started. But they were not nice. T^T

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