RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters

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Lucylastic -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 3:08:20 PM)
A group of anti-government militia members have occupied the headquarters and visitors center of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Harney County, Ore., apparently seeking to provoke a standoff with the federal government. Several of the right-wing militia members are sons of Cliven Bundy, a Nevada cattle rancher whose fight with the U.S. Bureau of Land Management sparked an armed confrontation with federal officials in 2014. Militia members have been traveling to the town of Burns, Ore. in recent weeks in support of Harney County rancher Dwight Hammond, Jr. and his son Steven Hammond, who in 2012 were convicted of arson for setting fires on federal land where they had poached deer. (The wildfires burned 139 acres of Bureau of Land Management property in 2001.) In October, a federal judge sentenced the pair to five years in prison. The Oregonian reported earlier this week on escalating tensions as the Hammonds' prison date approached. JJ MacNab, who has covered right-wing extremists for Forbes magazine, first reported this afternoon that militia members had seized the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters. They appear to be led by Ammon Bundy, one of Cliven's sons. The building that Bundy and his cohorts have occupied is this headquarters and visitors center 30 miles south of Burns. It was closed for the weekend. Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters. (Wikipedia) Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters. (Wikipedia) In a YouTube video released Dec. 31, Ammon Bundy says that God directed him to go to Oregon, a state he had never visited before. "I began to understand how the Lord felt about the Hammonds," Bundy says in the video. "I began to understand how the Lord felt about Harney County and about this country. And I clearly understood that the Lord was not pleased with what was happening to the Hammonds… If we allowed the Hammonds to continue to be punished, there would be accountability." In another video, also posted Dec. 31, militia member John Ritzheimer bids farewell to his family as he prepares to drive to Oregon, where he says he is "100 percent willing to lay my life down in order to fight tyranny." Ritzheimer then directly addresses Dwight Hammond, Jr., the convicted arsonist rancher. "It's real simple, Dwight: Do you want to die in prison, labeled as a terrorist by these oppressors?" he asks. "Or do you want to die out here with us, as a free man? I want to die a free man." UPDATE, 10:02 pm: Oregon Public Broadcasting reports that the number of militia members in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters is likely between six and 12 people. (The Bundys and militia media have claimed between 100 and 150 men are holding the building.) Meanwhile, The Oregonian's Les Zaitz reports that Harney County has shut down its schools for the week.

Lucylastic -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 3:09:38 PM)
Bundy Militia Musters Again Over Paiute Land Steve Russell 1/3/16 Some of the same armed “militia” involved in the Cliven Bundy affair in Nevada have occupied federal land in Oregon formerly reserved for the Northern Paiute. Ironically, the “legal” basis for starting a fight with the federal government is that sovereignty “really” belongs to Oregon rather than the Paiutes, who have seen their federal trust land shrink from over one and a half million acres to a tiny remnant of 760 acres in Burns, Oregon, where this current armed standoff began. Cliven Bundy is a Nevada rancher who engaged in an armed standoff with the federal government in 2014 when some of his cattle were seized over 20 years of unpaid grazing fees. “Militia members” and “patriots” from all the western states and phototropic politicians from as far away as Arizona joined Bundy. Video at the time showed “militiamen” taking aim at federal officers, and the authorities decided a bloodbath over grazing fees was not sensible. When the federal agents stood down, the militias declared a major victory. This Saturday, January 2, the war over federal authority continued when an unknown number of militia members seized a building in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Ammon Bundy—Cliven Bundy’s son—released a video urging like thinking people to arm themselves and come to Oregon, declaring, “We’re going to be staying for several years.” The “militiamen” claimed the occupation of the empty building was accomplished by 150 armed men. The armed occupation of Malheur Wildlife Refuge grew out of demonstrations over the impending deadline for Steven Hammond, 46, and his father Dwight Hammond, Jr., 73, to report to federal custody to begin serving five years in prison each for arson on public lands. At the Hammonds’ trial, the government argued that the fires were set to cover up evidence of poaching activities. The Hammonds did not deny setting the fires but claimed their purpose was to destroy invasive species. In the 2014 standoff, Cliven Bundy claimed that federal agents had no authority in Nevada. He now claims the same of Oregon, stating Saturday, “United States Justice Department has NO jurisdiction or authority within the State of Oregon.” If anything is clear-cut about Indians in the Constitution, it is that relations with Indian nations are a federal responsibility. Carrying out that responsibility in Oregon, President U.S. Grant established the Maiheur Indian Reservation for the Northern Paiute in 1872. It is no coincidence that the historical reservation shares a name with the Maiheur National Wildlife Refuge, site of the current armed standoff. White settlement nibbled at the Maiheur Indian Reservation until the Bannock War in 1878, which ended with surrendered Paiutes and Bannocks on the reservation being removed, officially to the Yakama Reservation in Washington Territory. Unofficially, Paiutes had scattered all over the Western States that comprised their aboriginal lands. The Burns Paiute Reservation is the remains of the Maiheur Reservation and the Maiheur Wildlife Refuge is an alternative use for the federal land, for those who believe the federal government exists. As in Nevada, the Bundys claim the only lawful authority in the area is the Harney County Sheriff David Ward, who they have petitioned to take the Hammonds into “protective custody” from the U.S. Marshal. In a video posted on YouTube, Ammon Bundy said, “This is a time to stand up.” Willamette Week reported that militia members have been arriving in Burns, Oregon, for weeks. Jon Ritzheimer made a farewell video for his family before heading out to fight with the “oppressive, tyrannical” federal government and posted it on YouTube. If he were not promising to “die a free man,” his rant about the Constitution would be humorous. While he would fail my constitutional law course, his, ahem, unusual reading of the document loses some humor value when he offers it as a reason to “lay my life down to fight against tyranny,” tyranny put in place by “kids who never got their hands dirty who went off to college” and came back thinking they know as much about land management as farmers. Ammon Bundy claims on video to be doing God’s work and says of the 2014 standoff, “because people came, we are free.” He also claims that the U.S. Attorney threatened to get the Hammonds assigned to “a less desirable prison” if they kept consulting with the militia and that would be “a death sentence.” Urging people to join in, he referred to the occupation of the Wildlife Refuge as, “This wonderful thing that the Lord is about to accomplish.” The Oregonian reported that one of the occupiers is Ryan Payne, an army veteran who claimed to have organized snipers to target federal agents during the 2014 standoff at the Bundy ranch in Nevada. Another veteran of the Bundy standoff, Blaine Cooper, told The Oregonian, “I went there to defend Cliven with my life.” Oregonian coverage was up to date as of early January 3, and included this statement on the situation from Harney County Sheriff David Ward: After the peaceful rally was completed today, a group of outside militants drove to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, where they seized and occupied the refuge headquarters. A collective effort from multiple agencies is currently working on a solution. For the time being please stay away from that area. More information will be provided as it becomes available. Please maintain a peaceful and united front and allow us to work through this situation. According to reporting by the Associated Press, the Hammonds are not as quick to advocate shooting at federal officers as Cliven Bundy. The AP quoted a letter from the Hammond family lawyer, W. Alan Schroeder, to Sheriff Ward: “Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family.” Dwight Hammond himself told the AP that he and his father intend to turn themselves in on January 4 as ordered. "We gave our word that's what we would do, and we intend to act on it.” While state and federal law enforcement agencies discussed how to end the occupation without bloodshed, Cliven Bundy from his Nevada ranch and the occupiers in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge used social media to call for supporters to come to Oregon. And come armed. Read more at http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/01/03/bundy-militia-musters-again-over-paiute-land-162939

Lucylastic -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 3:12:27 PM)
here is a more....right wing link http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/ with this particular snippet (q) June 22, 2012, Dwight and Steven were found guilty of starting both the 2001 and the 2006 fires by the jury. However, the federal courts convicted them both as “Terrorist” under the 1996 Antiterrorism Act. Judge Hogan sentenced Dwight (Father) to 3 months in prison and Steven (son) to 12 months in federal prison. They were also stipulated to pay $400,000 to the BLM. Hogan overruling the minimum terrorist sentence, commenting that if the full five years were required it would be a violation of the 8th amendment (cruel and unusual punishment). The day of the sentencing Judge Hogan retired as a federal judge. In his honor the staff served chocolate cake in the courtroom. (r) On January 4,, 2013, Dwight and Steven reported to prison. They fulfilled their sentences, (Dwight 3 months, Steven 12 months). Dwight was released in March 2013 and Steven, January 2014.

Phydeaux -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 3:56:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic again you dont have the literacy skills to realise I said nothing of the kind. Oh! So you're okay with BLM occupying university buildings, and OWS occupying wall street, and the Rainbow coalition occupying bank offices.. just not right wing groups doing the same thing.... See because I can post out more than a dozen posts where you've spoken laudatorily of these groups without a shread of condemnation from you. Once again, please show me where I said ANYTHING like that? BUT where hasANY LEFTIST GROUP TAKEN OVER A FEDERAL BUILDING ARMED . laudatorily??? Bloody hell you really do seem to have an imagination and a lot of bullshit exaggeration problems with stuff you think you read? fuck off. You seem to have a real attention problem. I asked if you were Ok with them taking over federal buildings if they were unarmed. You said no. I pointed out that you have never condemned leftist groups for taking over buildings. See, now we are talking about unarmed leftists groups taking over buildings. I pointed out that you have spoken many times in favor of groups such as OWS, Black Lives matter etc - who have taken over buildings. And you have never once condemned them. So the point, dear Ms. Lastic is that you are a hypocrite. It wouldn't matter if the right wing group were armed, unarmed or little green men from outer space. You would be against them expressing their point of view. In other words, you like most other liberals, are fine with someone expressing a point of view so long as it agrees with yours. But let it vary one scintilla from your approved socialist ideology and your commitment to free speech vanishes like the wind and instead you are as repressive as any totalitarian ideologue. Grow up. Learn real tolerance. Lets give an example, shall we? BLM shut down Mall of the america's inconveniencing tens of thousands of people. Did you condemn them or support them? These Right Wing people protest egregious government sentencing - inconveniencing a handful of federal officials. And yet your condemnation is vociferous. Do you see a double standard?

Phydeaux -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 4:00:41 PM)
Not to put words in your mouth, but johuffingether makes post after post saying how great BLM is. And saying how terrible police brutality is. And yet the same johuffingether advocates calling out the Army Rangers and killing the right wingers. And he see's no hypocrisy, no irony, whatsoever. Killiing blacks bad. Killing right wingers good. Ie., Racist hypocrite.

kdsub -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 5:10:05 PM)
Would not an unarmed demonstration requiring forced eviction been a better option if they desired to bring their case to the American public? This stinks of armed rebellion in my way of thinking and deserves a strong quick response. What do you think conservative reaction would have been if armed African Americans occupied the Ferguson Missouri City Hall? Would you call them terrorists? Butch

CreativeDominant -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 5:14:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD This is more like OWS than McVeigh. It is also the same tactic used in the 60's by both the civil rights and anti war movements. And what happened to OWS, nothing. I didn't say that I agree with their actions, I was just pointing out that the left has used these tactics routinly, and that far from being a threat to the nation they have been treated like heroes. When did the left arm themselves and take over a federal building? Can you imagine if a group of OWS had been armed, or BLM Or even a muslim group and taken over a fed building? When did the left forcibly (with arms) take over a federal building. Just to add on to what Lucy was stating to make the overall question even more pronounced.... If one of these groups, behaving in a threatening manner and making demands to force the US Government to capitulate to their whims; would conservative want them taken down? OH FUCK YEAH! Which is why this group can tell itself all it wants that they are not terrorists. They are terrorists. They are thugs with guns. They took over a location that is not directly their property. They are spoiling for a fight with the US Government. Their 'protest' is absurd since the individuals were found guilty in a court of law. The best solution these guys can hope for is 'breaking and entering' and a pile of other serious felony charges. Its basically puts them away behind prison for a decade or two; after that, they are never allowed to legally own firearms. At worst they decided to become stupid and try for another Ruby Ridge or Waco, TX moment. In which case the US Government should just pass Posse Comatitus and tell the US Army: "We want that property back minus the terrorists". See how well those morons with their assault rifles, shotguns and personal body armor stack up against a company of M-1 Abrams, a flight of A-10 Warthogs, and perhaps a battalion of Rangers. Encircle the area and secure it. Then just let artillery pound the area into craters and rumble. That way conservatives can have a nice 'wake up call' to what happens when they place US Citizen lives at risk and annoy the US Government. If this is not crossing the line between 'legal use of the 2nd amendment', then the very next stunt by these wackos will! At least they did this action just before President Obama is set to give new details on gun control in the State of the Union address coming up. These morons just give the President and example of "What happens when the 2nd amendment is allowed to be abused by individuals that justify threatening and killing US Citizens to achieve their own political agendas". That's just more moderates swinging over to the liberal side..... What is really sad/amusing is that termie, bamad and others are not realizing this group is screwing with their gun rights in a much more major way than anything the Left could do in a year! Because 'honest and law abiding' citizens with guns....DO NOT....break laws! If conservatives were intelligent, they would be just as 'up in arms' over this as everyone else in the nation. But their conservative media is already hard at work spinning the bullshit so as to never let conservatives think on the facts clearly. God! Do you even realize how tyranny-supportive you sound?

Lucylastic -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 5:28:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic again you dont have the literacy skills to realise I said nothing of the kind. Oh! So you're okay with BLM occupying university buildings, and OWS occupying wall street, and the Rainbow coalition occupying bank offices.. just not right wing groups doing the same thing.... See because I can post out more than a dozen posts where you've spoken laudatorily of these groups without a shread of condemnation from you. Once again, please show me where I said ANYTHING like that? BUT where hasANY LEFTIST GROUP TAKEN OVER A FEDERAL BUILDING ARMED . laudatorily??? Bloody hell you really do seem to have an imagination and a lot of bullshit exaggeration problems with stuff you think you read? fuck off. You seem to have a real attention problem. I asked if you were Ok with them taking over federal buildings if they were unarmed. You said no. I pointed out that you have never condemned leftist groups for taking over buildings. See, now we are talking about unarmed leftists groups taking over buildings. I pointed out that you have spoken many times in favor of groups such as OWS, Black Lives matter etc - who have taken over buildings. And you have never once condemned them. So the point, dear Ms. Lastic is that you are a hypocrite. It wouldn't matter if the right wing group were armed, unarmed or little green men from outer space. You would be against them expressing their point of view. In other words, you like most other liberals, are fine with someone expressing a point of view so long as it agrees with yours. But let it vary one scintilla from your approved socialist ideology and your commitment to free speech vanishes like the wind and instead you are as repressive as any totalitarian ideologue. Grow up. Learn real tolerance. Lets give an example, shall we? BLM shut down Mall of the america's inconveniencing tens of thousands of people. Did you condemn them or support them? These Right Wing people protest egregious government sentencing - inconveniencing a handful of federal officials. And yet your condemnation is vociferous. Do you see a double standard? you didnt answer my original question which was short and to the point, your faux outrage is laughable, you cant state ANY Federal building being shut down by any armed group from the left. That was MY goalpost and you attempting to obfuscate, bloviate and try spread the goalposts so wide you could drive the titanic thru it. You want to put me in a camp that you cant, you are putting more than words in my mouth, you have fuck all to back it up with and you are trying to wriggle away from my question, which is simple to answer, except you cant accept it, I really have no interest in your bullshit excuses and worming in anything but the topic. Turning it into a "the left do so much worse" and ignoring WHAT THIS group has done is cobblers. But it is your MO, so...yanno, carry on. ON your own.

jlf1961 -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 5:28:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic When did the left arm themselves and take over a federal building? Can you imagine if a group of OWS had been armed, or BLM Or even a muslim group and taken over a fed building? When did the left forcibly (with arms) take over a federal building. Hmm, might I suggest you bone up on American History, specifically American Indian Movement occupation of the BIA Headquarters in Washington DC. Not to mention Alcatraz, and the National Monument at Wounded Knee. While long past the militant activities, it might also interest you to know that the AIM-International Confederation of Autonomous Chapters (which broke from the main AIM organization after accusations that the AIM leadership were responsible for the murder of Anna Mae Pictou Aquash) still celebrates the anniversaries of those armed takeovers. It is a common misconception among liberals that liberal movements do not resort to use of armed resistance, which is not the case. There are at least two Liberal Environmental groups that have in the past resorted to violence to further their message.

ifmaz -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 5:52:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic you didnt answer my original question which was short and to the point, your faux outrage is laughable, you cant state ANY Federal building being shut down by any armed group from the left. ... So when a group of people occupy Wall Street or a mall that's acceptable because they are not occupying a federal building and they are unarmed? If the refuge HQ was occupied by unarmed people with the same grievances as they currently have, would that be acceptable? I suppose the big question is: do you have an issue with the group being armed or the group being "conservative"?

thompsonx -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 5:59:45 PM)
Aim is a liberal organization?

BamaD -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 6:28:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic you didnt answer my original question which was short and to the point, your faux outrage is laughable, you cant state ANY Federal building being shut down by any armed group from the left. ... So when a group of people occupy Wall Street or a mall that's acceptable because they are not occupying a federal building and they are unarmed? If the refuge HQ was occupied by unarmed people with the same grievances as they currently have, would that be acceptable? I suppose the big question is: do you have an issue with the group being armed or the group being "conservative"? Being conservative of course.

Lucylastic -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 6:34:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic you didnt answer my original question which was short and to the point, your faux outrage is laughable, you cant state ANY Federal building being shut down by any armed group from the left. ... So when a group of people occupy Wall Street or a mall that's acceptable because they are not occupying a federal building and they are unarmed? If the refuge HQ was occupied by unarmed people with the same grievances as they currently have, would that be acceptable? I suppose the big question is: do you have an issue with the group being armed or the group being "conservative"? You suppose so much without answers.... strawmen logical fallacies, ad hominems and other crap just get you ignored. AGAIN

Lucylastic -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 6:36:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic When did the left arm themselves and take over a federal building? Can you imagine if a group of OWS had been armed, or BLM Or even a muslim group and taken over a fed building? When did the left forcibly (with arms) take over a federal building. Hmm, might I suggest you bone up on American History, specifically American Indian Movement occupation of the BIA Headquarters in Washington DC. Not to mention Alcatraz, and the National Monument at Wounded Knee. While long past the militant activities, it might also interest you to know that the AIM-International Confederation of Autonomous Chapters (which broke from the main AIM organization after accusations that the AIM leadership were responsible for the murder of Anna Mae Pictou Aquash) still celebrates the anniversaries of those armed takeovers. It is a common misconception among liberals that liberal movements do not resort to use of armed resistance, which is not the case. There are at least two Liberal Environmental groups that have in the past resorted to violence to further their message. for gods sake im sure we can bring up armed surrection going back to the time guns were invented. PUHLEEZE Im not stupid. Im NOT TALKING decades and more ago. We should have an american history section for those topics, that go on, instead of what is happening NOW, this century, this decade, even. Ive already made my question plain enough. Ive seen so much faffing about by people trying to drag other RECENT protests in to deflect, now history. If you cant respond to what Im saying and instead, responding with what YOU want to argue, then pfttttt I have no time.

ifmaz -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 6:38:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: ifmaz quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic you didnt answer my original question which was short and to the point, your faux outrage is laughable, you cant state ANY Federal building being shut down by any armed group from the left. ... So when a group of people occupy Wall Street or a mall that's acceptable because they are not occupying a federal building and they are unarmed? If the refuge HQ was occupied by unarmed people with the same grievances as they currently have, would that be acceptable? I suppose the big question is: do you have an issue with the group being armed or the group being "conservative"? You suppose so much without answers.... strawmen logical fallacies, ad hominems and other crap just get you ignored. AGAIN I asked some questions, and was extremely polite about doing so, and you ignore me? How very mature of you. Apparently you really do want an echo chamber and not a discussion.

Wayward5oul -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 6:41:06 PM)
Two things from the article linked in the OP that stood out to me: There was a peaceful protest of both local citizens and militia members earlier that day, and it was after that protest that the occupation occurred. But leaders of some of the militia groups that traveled to the protest, including ones who helped organize it, said they knew nothing of plans for the occupation and have publicly denounced it, both in a statement to the press and in a statement posted on Facebook. The ones involved in this are only a handful of 'hard-core' militia members led by Ammon Bundy. Bundy and his followers are not from Oregon and have no ties to the area. The men whose prosecutions were being protested, Dwight Hammond Jr. and Steven Hammond, have stated through their attorneys that they have no intention of disobeying orders to report for prison. The Bundy's have chosen to take the cause on as their own, after the Hammond family and local ranchers rejected Bundy's attempts to recruit them. If all of this is accurate, this is an outsider group coming in and taking up this cause, in a manner that those actually involved have rejected.

Phydeaux -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 7:03:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic again you dont have the literacy skills to realise I said nothing of the kind. Oh! So you're okay with BLM occupying university buildings, and OWS occupying wall street, and the Rainbow coalition occupying bank offices.. just not right wing groups doing the same thing.... See because I can post out more than a dozen posts where you've spoken laudatorily of these groups without a shread of condemnation from you. Once again, please show me where I said ANYTHING like that? BUT where hasANY LEFTIST GROUP TAKEN OVER A FEDERAL BUILDING ARMED . laudatorily??? Bloody hell you really do seem to have an imagination and a lot of bullshit exaggeration problems with stuff you think you read? fuck off. You seem to have a real attention problem. I asked if you were Ok with them taking over federal buildings if they were unarmed. You said no. I pointed out that you have never condemned leftist groups for taking over buildings. See, now we are talking about unarmed leftists groups taking over buildings. I pointed out that you have spoken many times in favor of groups such as OWS, Black Lives matter etc - who have taken over buildings. And you have never once condemned them. So the point, dear Ms. Lastic is that you are a hypocrite. It wouldn't matter if the right wing group were armed, unarmed or little green men from outer space. You would be against them expressing their point of view. In other words, you like most other liberals, are fine with someone expressing a point of view so long as it agrees with yours. But let it vary one scintilla from your approved socialist ideology and your commitment to free speech vanishes like the wind and instead you are as repressive as any totalitarian ideologue. Grow up. Learn real tolerance. Lets give an example, shall we? BLM shut down Mall of the america's inconveniencing tens of thousands of people. Did you condemn them or support them? These Right Wing people protest egregious government sentencing - inconveniencing a handful of federal officials. And yet your condemnation is vociferous. Do you see a double standard? you didnt answer my original question which was short and to the point, your faux outrage is laughable, you cant state ANY Federal building being shut down by any armed group from the left. That was MY goalpost and you attempting to obfuscate, bloviate and try spread the goalposts so wide you could drive the titanic thru it. You want to put me in a camp that you cant, you are putting more than words in my mouth, you have fuck all to back it up with and you are trying to wriggle away from my question, which is simple to answer, except you cant accept it, I really have no interest in your bullshit excuses and worming in anything but the topic. Turning it into a "the left do so much worse" and ignoring WHAT THIS group has done is cobblers. But it is your MO, so...yanno, carry on. ON your own. How rich. You complain I haven't answered your question in post #19, all the while ignoring my question to you in post 16. Which occurred first. So I don't really care what your goalposts are - or what the intent of your questions are or anything of the kind. As for the rest of your drivel. I suggest you look up the Hanafi Siege of 1977 - where leftists took over the district building and killed people. I also suggest you bone up on ELF and ALF. Of course, I'm not sure why you think taking over buildings is the sine qua non. Wouldn't you say destroying them is worse? If so, may I point you to the ferguson riots, or the watts riots, or the edison riot or the .... Lefties are so mindwashed...

jlf1961 -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 7:18:41 PM)
Lucy, I gave two historic examples of armed takeover by leftists. I also pointed out that two environmental groups have used violence and weapons to make their points, which if you would have bothered to check have happened IN THIS FUCKING CENTURY. This includes but is not limited to, armed invasion of research labs to free animals, fire bombing housing projects that have destroyed habitat, spiking trees scheduled to be harvested with metal which when hit with a chainsaw would cause serious injury with a real possibility of death. I had hoped that you were at least intelligent enough to do a little research on your part just to see how overwhelmingly stupid your question actually was. The tactic I used, as I understand it, is called diplomacy, and done so in a way that would allow you the chance to retract or reword the question without someone making you out to be foolish, ill informed and out of touch with the real world of left leaning protests. It was the most respectful way I could think of to do so. Now I do apologize for giving your intellect more credit than it deserves.

BamaD -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/3/2016 9:28:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Lucy, I gave two historic examples of armed takeover by leftists. I also pointed out that two environmental groups have used violence and weapons to make their points, which if you would have bothered to check have happened IN THIS FUCKING CENTURY. This includes but is not limited to, armed invasion of research labs to free animals, fire bombing housing projects that have destroyed habitat, spiking trees scheduled to be harvested with metal which when hit with a chainsaw would cause serious injury with a real possibility of death. I had hoped that you were at least intelligent enough to do a little research on your part just to see how overwhelmingly stupid your question actually was. The tactic I used, as I understand it, is called diplomacy, and done so in a way that would allow you the chance to retract or reword the question without someone making you out to be foolish, ill informed and out of touch with the real world of left leaning protests. It was the most respectful way I could think of to do so. Now I do apologize for giving your intellect more credit than it deserves. Do you have to favor armed occupation to see that there is something wrong with another judge changing the sentence for these men after they have served the original sentence and have COMMITED NO OFFENSES SINCE?

joether -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/4/2016 2:10:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: joether At worst they decided to become stupid and try for another Ruby Ridge or Waco, TX moment. In which case the US Government should just pass Posse Comatitus and tell the US Army: "We want that property back minus the terrorists". Wow. You really are an idiot. You really don't realize the passe comitatus act was passed to prevent the army from being used for domestic law enforcement..... No, actually, your the idiot. The bill was passed into law to prevent the US Military from being used as law enforcement in most circumstances. However, if the President signs a specific document, federal armies can be mobilized and used to handle any number of threats. For example, if the government had intel on a major terrorist plotting to blow up a city, the President could order special forces to act via this document. Therefore, what I stated was correct and you really should re-read the act....

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