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RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 8:42:45 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Well, I am not sure how to set up a link to the article I posted, but maybe someone else who visits it can. Go to dennisprager.com, click on dennis writes, and the article is called "smoke and lose your son".

And by the way, I am not a smoker.

Oh cool, the link was already added. Thanks.


You seem to think that "freedom" means being able to foul the air willy nilly, and the water too. If I dumped sewage in a river upstream from you I bet you would cry about that because we share that water. If I dump trash in the streets in front of your house and you have to look at it I am impeding your right to have a litter free view of the street and possibly it will blow into your yard. If I play music so loud in my car in my yard while doing yard work that the ground shakes and it gives you a headache I am invading your space. If I take a portable stereo into a restaurant and blare it into your ear while you eat I am doing the same thing. It is called respecting common space and other human beings. I have gotten headaches from second hand smoke, you do not get headaches from it... Good for you! But don't think that these symptoms are not real just because you do not feel them.

Your freedom only applies as long as it doesn't impede my freedom... period. You do not have the right to piss in a public fountain either.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 381
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 10:26:02 AM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

I only stated that until some one can show me verifiable proof that second hand smoke is the demon from hell killer that you claim i will hold my ground..
quote:



My posts so far have only been based on or asking for facts. As i stated earlier any facts i gave you are just that, verifiable facts from the same agencies you got your findings from. The difference?

From the dictionary:

Main Entry: fact
the quality of being actual : ACTUALITY <a question of fact hinges on evidence>
something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact> b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>

Main Entry: finding

the result of a judicial examination or inquiry b : the results of an investigation -- usually used in plural : findings 

Facts hinge on evidence, findings are the result of examing pieces and drawing a conclusion.


Again, you can believe the experts who say second smoking is harmful, or not... but those who believe the experts and wish to avoid second hand smoke in places where the general public belongs.... are entitled to not breath the air the top health agencies have found to be harmful.

Yes, findings are the result of observing the facts and making a conclusion.  When highly acclaimed experts make these conclusions, believing it is not a far fatched idea... especially, when these experts have reviewed the autopsy reports, and medical records you keep mentioning.

And then there is hypocrisy.  A recent post of yours directed at another member regarding his thoughts on a bdsm activity ....
Quote:
quote:


I do hope you are being sarcastic here because neither or your suggestions is very safe. In reality there are numerous reasons not to do either. 



Perhaps you should have supplied autopsy reports for the activity in question.  Besides, if the acts were consensual... then so what.  Second hand smoke is not consensual to most of us, and the surgeon general has yet to warn us on the harmful effects of breast torture.

You have tried to justify why second hand is not harmful to others... which, in the eyes' of many (including the top health experts in the world), you haven't done.... all so you can be allowed to smoke in public.  I don't think my statements are the ones being self-serving. 

I'll chalk it up to an agreement to disagree....



(in reply to twicehappy)
Profile   Post #: 382
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 10:30:27 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Well, I am not sure how to set up a link to the article I posted, but maybe someone else who visits it can. Go to dennisprager.com, click on dennis writes, and the article is called "smoke and lose your son".

And by the way, I am not a smoker.

Oh cool, the link was already added. Thanks.


You seem to think that "freedom" means being able to foul the air willy nilly, and the water too. If I dumped sewage in a river upstream from you I bet you would cry about that because we share that water. If I dump trash in the streets in front of your house and you have to look at it I am impeding your right to have a litter free view of the street and possibly it will blow into your yard. If I play music so loud in my car in my yard while doing yard work that the ground shakes and it gives you a headache I am invading your space. If I take a portable stereo into a restaurant and blare it into your ear while you eat I am doing the same thing. It is called respecting common space and other human beings. I have gotten headaches from second hand smoke, you do not get headaches from it... Good for you! But don't think that these symptoms are not real just because you do not feel them.

Your freedom only applies as long as it doesn't impede my freedom... period. You do not have the right to piss in a public fountain either.


So because you get headaches from second hand smoke, it should be banned? Amazing.

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Profile   Post #: 383
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 11:19:04 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Because many people cough, all of us stink like it when exposed, and many get headaches from it, yes... it should be banned in COMMON ENCLOSED areas. Smoke all you want outside, in your car, in your house, outside the doorway... I really do not care.. as long as I do not get a headache from it and the smoker doesn't foul my hair and clothing from it... why should I pay for extra dry cleaning?

Do loud thumping stereos on the freeway in stop and go traffic playing rap disturb you when you feel like your spine is being jarred from it? Does this give you a headache? There are laws against this noise pollution also. I went to an Indian Casino with state of the art ventilation system that allows smoking recently... My throat hurt when I left, my hair smelled, my head hurt... I won't go back. I feel blessed that in most environments in this state I do not have to deal with that. I can avoid the places I do... I do not like to gamble anyhow. You may not mind stinking like shit from someone else's bad habit, I do mind, it freaking bugs the crap outta me. I used to smoke, I know it isn't that God Damned hard to excuse oneself to a location that no one is affected by a dirty, nasty and foul habit. I believe from being a smoker in the past and suffering ill consequences from it that second hand smoke does impact others in a very negative way. I lived with it when I was a little kid, my parents smoking in the car, inside, making me cough, suffering bad allergies all my life... guess what? Since I quit smoking for the first time in my life I smell things I never have smelled before.. even as a little kid, because both of my parents were smokers too. My allergies are almost completely gone, because I am allergic to cigarette smoke. I live this, and there is no way you could convince me my experience is wrong, nor the experiences of countless others. Lets face it, most nonsmokers do not feel like you, and we have rights too, and the freedom to exist without this pollutant around us when it is so easy to get smokers to go outside with it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 384
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 11:30:48 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		If you are actually allergic to cigarette smoke...how is it that you managed to smoke for so many years? I hear many people state that they are allergic to this, that or another thing...yet I have to wonder if people understand what an allergy is. A true allergic reaction is not a pleasant experience, one that often needs medical intervention. I don't understand how someone could expose their body on a regular basis to something they are actually allergic to.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 385
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 11:37:05 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Just as an aside, I was under the impression that one could develope an allergy at any point in life. Example, not allergic at birth but it developed later on. Just as I have heard of those that were allergic to something when they were quite young but had it lessen or go away as they got older.
Example: I knew a gentleman that had been stung by bees as a child but then as an adult was stung and almost died from the allergic reaction.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 386
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 11:43:38 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		 Airborne allergies cause stuffy nose, watery eyes, asthma, cough. I had these all my life. I had to have jaw surgery because my jaws developed incorrectly due to open mouthed breathing. I have allergies to many other things. There are many types of allergic reactions, for example if I had penicillin it could kill me. Some people are allergic to poison oak and it causes a skin rash, I do not have that sensitivity. I could look up medical literature about allergy, but most people here are familiar with hay fever, which is the type of allergy I lived with my whole life all the time. I still have some allergies to different things, but I am not chronically ill from it anymore, and I used to be all the time. I had to be rushed to the hospital on two occasions the last two years I smoked with asthma attacks, adult onset asthma. I haven't even had shortness of breath in over a year.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 11:51:03 AM   
Dauric


Posts: 254
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		...

Just for a moment let's put aside the completely healthy people that need to deal with second hand smoke. My first job out of high-school was at an auto-body shop, the machismo atmosphere left all the breather masks in a locked cabinet. The first day I was asked to mix a paint color I spent the better part of an hour in a poorly ventilated concrete bunker filled with paint fumes. That night I was rushed to the emergency room with chjemical burns on my trachaea and upper lungs.

For the most part I'm fine now, but on really smoggy days, enclosed places with one or two smokers, or at the entrances to a building where smokers collect by the dozens (too lazy or rude to move away from the doors I guess) I can end up in excruciating pain with every breath.

Just my own $0.02

Dauric.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 388
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 11:58:03 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dauric

...

Just for a moment let's put aside the completely healthy people that need to deal with second hand smoke. My first job out of high-school was at an auto-body shop, the machismo atmosphere left all the breather masks in a locked cabinet. The first day I was asked to mix a paint color I spent the better part of an hour in a poorly ventilated concrete bunker filled with paint fumes. That night I was rushed to the emergency room with chjemical burns on my trachaea and upper lungs.

For the most part I'm fine now, but on really smoggy days, enclosed places with one or two smokers, or at the entrances to a building where smokers collect by the dozens (too lazy or rude to move away from the doors I guess) I can end up in excruciating pain with every breath.

Just my own $0.02

Dauric.


My sister quit visiting my mother because of second hand smoke except in the summer when she could visit mostly outside with her. My sister would get bronchitus or pneumonia everytime she came and stayed inside with my mom. She also has lupis, so her immune system is screwed up. My mom quit smoking inside years ago though. There are many people with compromised immune systems that do not handle pollutants well, including perfumes.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Dauric)
Profile   Post #: 389
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 12:03:18 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Because many people cough, all of us stink like it when exposed, and many get headaches from it, yes... it should be banned in COMMON ENCLOSED areas. Smoke all you want outside, in your car, in your house, outside the doorway... I really do not care.. as long as I do not get a headache from it and the smoker doesn't foul my hair and clothing from it... why should I pay for extra dry cleaning?

Do loud thumping stereos on the freeway in stop and go traffic playing rap disturb you when you feel like your spine is being jarred from it? Does this give you a headache? There are laws against this noise pollution also. I went to an Indian Casino with state of the art ventilation system that allows smoking recently... My throat hurt when I left, my hair smelled, my head hurt... I won't go back. I feel blessed that in most environments in this state I do not have to deal with that. I can avoid the places I do... I do not like to gamble anyhow. You may not mind stinking like shit from someone else's bad habit, I do mind, it freaking bugs the crap outta me. I used to smoke, I know it isn't that God Damned hard to excuse oneself to a location that no one is affected by a dirty, nasty and foul habit. I believe from being a smoker in the past and suffering ill consequences from it that second hand smoke does impact others in a very negative way. I lived with it when I was a little kid, my parents smoking in the car, inside, making me cough, suffering bad allergies all my life... guess what? Since I quit smoking for the first time in my life I smell things I never have smelled before.. even as a little kid, because both of my parents were smokers too. My allergies are almost completely gone, because I am allergic to cigarette smoke. I live this, and there is no way you could convince me my experience is wrong, nor the experiences of countless others. Lets face it, most nonsmokers do not feel like you, and we have rights too, and the freedom to exist without this pollutant around us when it is so easy to get smokers to go outside with it.


Would you cassify beaches or forests as outside? How about stadiums? How about sitting outside on your apartment balcony? All these places are illegal for smoking now in many places in California. That is why as a non smoker, I am so against this ban smoking movement. And we all know that is exactly what it is.
No one is saying that second hand smoke is good for you. But getting a whiff of smoke from someone's balcony is not going to affect the vast majority of people. And the fact that you used to smoke and are still alive makes me wonder how smelling smoke outside would be worse for you.
The surgeon General says second smoke is bad. In what context? In an enclosed room? On the beach? In Dodger Stadium? That is like saying water is bad. It is in certain situations. Are you floating in the middle of the Pacific Ocean without a life raft, or are you taking a bath? There is a big difference.
I feel bad for people like you who have strong reactions to cigarette smoke. But infringing on and even taking rights away from a large group of people because of a small group who have reactions is a bad precedent. And as the attacks on fast food, soft drinks, and obesity increase, it really hurts everyone.  

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RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 12:05:16 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dauric

...

Just for a moment let's put aside the completely healthy people that need to deal with second hand smoke. My first job out of high-school was at an auto-body shop, the machismo atmosphere left all the breather masks in a locked cabinet. The first day I was asked to mix a paint color I spent the better part of an hour in a poorly ventilated concrete bunker filled with paint fumes. That night I was rushed to the emergency room with chjemical burns on my trachaea and upper lungs.

For the most part I'm fine now, but on really smoggy days, enclosed places with one or two smokers, or at the entrances to a building where smokers collect by the dozens (too lazy or rude to move away from the doors I guess) I can end up in excruciating pain with every breath.

Just my own $0.02

Dauric.


And who's fault is that? Smokers or your bad decision?

_____________________________

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RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 12:10:17 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		In California (including West Hollywood, which I was in about a month ago) you can go outside to smoke on patios. I know this to be so because I was at a coffeehouse next to Borders. I am not from Southern California, and that was why I noted the ashtrays on the patio of this cafe. If they aren't allowed to smoke, then why the ashtrays?

In any restaurant I have been to in California they have ashtrays on the tables outside. I have no problem with this.

I stated my position on inside buildings open to the public for private business or public business. I do not disagree that people should be able to smoke in certain sections of a stadium, unless the stadium owner(s) do not want to allow it, it is their property after all. Just my opinion

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Estring)
Profile   Post #: 392
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 12:31:27 PM   
MistressLorelei


Posts: 997
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Would you cassify beaches or forests as outside? How about stadiums? How about sitting outside on your apartment balcony? All these places are illegal for smoking now in many places in California. That is why as a non smoker, I am so against this ban smoking movement. And we all know that is exactly what it is.
No one is saying that second hand smoke is good for you. But getting a whiff of smoke from someone's balcony is not going to affect the vast majority of people. And the fact that you used to smoke and are still alive makes me wonder how smelling smoke outside would be worse for you.
The surgeon General says second smoke is bad. In what context? In an enclosed room? On the beach? In Dodger Stadium? That is like saying water is bad. It is in certain situations. Are you floating in the middle of the Pacific Ocean without a life raft, or are you taking a bath? There is a big difference.
I feel bad for people like you who have strong reactions to cigarette smoke. But infringing on and even taking rights away from a large group of people because of a small group who have reactions is a bad precedent. And as the attacks on fast food, soft drinks, and obesity increase, it really hurts everyone.  


If you agree that second hand smoke can be harmful indoors, (and I can appreciate your reasoning that people should be allowed to smoke on their balconies, or outside at restaurants), but why are you so adamant that smokers be allowed to smoke everywhere ... period?   In all but very few places, smoking is allowed on balconies and most any place outdoors.  Why not fight for smokers to smoke outdoors as they please, rather than than to smoke indoors everywhere?

Just curious...

Regarding stadiums... if you are sitting in a seat beside a smoker who is blowing smoke at you for a 3 hour period of time (i.e. football game), it really doesn't matter if that seat is indoors or outdoors.  Also, I have  been burned a couple of times, and almost burned many times by excited smoking concert-goers back in the days when smoking was legal in stadiums.  Smoking while intoxicated and waving your arms frantically near people inches away isn't all too safe.  A triple whammy... smell like their smoke, get burned by their cigarettes, and inhale their cancerous fumes.... that's fair.

(in reply to Estring)
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RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 12:52:02 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

Just as an aside, I was under the impression that one could develope an allergy at any point in life


You are correct. 
That's how it was explained to me in the ER when I had an allergic reaction to something I'd taken previously.


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Profile   Post #: 394
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 12:54:32 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

Provide me with one death certificate that lists second hand smoke as the primary or underlying cause and i will shut up.

I can provide you with death certificates that state a heart attack was the cause of death with the underlying cause being recorded as morbid obesity.




I said this earlier on this same thread but I'll say it again, and perhaps a bit more clearly...

Technically on death certificates the actual and underlying cause of death are supposed to be actual illnesses that caused the death, not conditions that contributed to the death.  For instance if you lived in a house with lead poisoning that would not be listed, nor would living in a house with a smoker (i.e. inhaling their smoke or eating lead paint). * 

So most succinctly put, it simply isn't even considered one of the categories to list on a death certificate.  The CDC provides specific guidance on terms that are supposed to be used if the coroner feels like they need to explain the origin of the person’s death.  None or those terms are second hand smoke. ** 

The actual classification for categories under cause of death or underlying cause of death that the CDC and coroners use originate from the World Health Organization’s International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems.  Second hand smoke is not one of the diseases or possible classifications that can be used on a death certificate at least according to their list of possible classification. ***

Hopefully this long explanation will put to rest the often-used argument of, “I don’t see it on a death certificate, hence no one dies of it and it’s not real.”

What second hand smoke does is advance or create medical problems (such as asthma, lung cancer, heart disease, etc) that wouldn't occur unless you were in that particular environment. **** Hence studies that assess the dangers of second-hand smoke compare households and individuals that are exactly the same, except for the prevalence of second-hand smoke to assess the dangers.  Some of those studies include:

Journal of the American Medical Association, Acute Effects of Passive Smoking on the Coronary Circulation in Healthy Young Adults:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/286/4/436

World Health Organization, Volume 83: Tobacco Smoke and Involuntary Smoking, International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC)
http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol83/volume83.pdf

In particular I'll repost this link for the third time on this thread, which is the United Surgeon General's report on the dangers of second hand smoke.  That report is located at: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/secondhandsmoke/report/ 

You may want to look at pages 424-426 which contains a table that summarizes the key studies over the years that have documented the link between lung cancer and second hand smoke.

Call me crazy but I'll take the documentation from the US Surgeon General, Journal of the American Medical Association, and the World Health Organization as pretty strong proof of the health problems associated with being exposed to secondhand smoke.

C~

* From the CDC's Physicians' Handbook on Medical Certification of Death (2003) p.40:

The cause of death means the disease, abnormality, injury, or poisoning that caused the death, not the mechanism of death, such as cardiac or respiratory arrest, shock, or heart failure.

** From the CDC's Physicians' Handbook on Medical Certification of Death (2003) p.32-33

*** See: http://www3.who.int/icd/currentversion/fr-icd.htm

****  The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: A Report of the Surgeon General p.43 which has a chart that literally summarizes the connection between secondhand smoke and cancer.


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

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Profile   Post #: 395
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 1:09:27 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
but why are you so adamant that smokers be allowed to smoke everywhere ... period?  


I must have missed something. Where exactly was it that he (or anyone else for that matter) said that?

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 8/9/2006 1:11:50 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MistressLorelei)
Profile   Post #: 396
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 1:14:23 PM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei


And then there is hypocrisy.  A recent post of yours directed at another member regarding his thoughts on a bdsm activity ....

                             
quote:

Twicehappy
I do hope you are being sarcastic here because neither or your suggestions is very safe. In reality there are numerous reasons not to do either. 


Wow! I am flattered; you had to read back through 46 of my posts to get to this one. You must be grasping at straws. Sp here is the original post i answered in its entirety:

quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy

If you can stand the initial burn, heat shrink tubing on your nipples is really hot!

I swear you need to hit the auctions and beg your Master to come home with an old-tymey wringer type washing machine... mechanical wringer cranks are best for tit flattening and you can do both tits at once (stereo), electric motor wringers easily stall and hardly support stereo screams of agony bliss.each tit for simulated stereo! 


Below is why i made the comment you so assiduously searched for. My comment was based on facts.

As a visiting nurse i once spent a month or so making thrice weekly visits to an Amish woman who had accidentally got her hand caught in the wringer of an old gas powered wringer type washing machine.

It broke all four of her fingers not to mention various lacerations and incisions from the surgery to remove the slivers of broken bones. She eventually regained 60% use of that hand.

Having witnessed first hand the results of putting a body part through one of those wringers i can say it is an incontrovertible fact that damage was done to a human body part. I can say it is fact that a washing machine wringer is not a safe place to insert your breasts.

My dead Lord designed and built custom motorcycles, my current Lord builds motorcycles, i race and build motorcycles, we have all used heat shrink tubing and a heat gun. Heat shrink tubing melts at 343 degrees centigrade.

As a nurse i know human skin begins to scald at 125 degrees centigrade, anything after that can and does cause serious burns. 

So can you explain to me at which point i was being hypocritical?

quote:

Perhaps you should have supplied autopsy reports for the activity in question.  Besides, if the acts were consensual... then so what.


As stated above i was in possession of the fact that either of these activities was harmful. If any interested party had requested further facts i would have provided them.

The act was not consensual, the act had not been performed, it was a suggestion for an act, therefore i made the statement that the act was potentially dangerous as i had facts that it was.

And FYI most states have laws against many of the practices those of us who participate in bdsm engage in

quote:

When highly acclaimed experts make these conclusions, believing it is not a far fatched idea...


Once upon a time all the best scientific minds agreed the world was flat. They drew their findings and conclusions from much observation and study.

Then evidence was found that reversed their decision.

quote:

You have tried to justify why second hand is not harmful to others... which, in the eyes' of many (including the top health experts in the world), you haven't done.... all so you can be allowed to smoke in public.  I don't think my statements are the ones being self-serving. 


When those experts have facts that prove that it is harmful i would at that point consider the evidence.

What you are missing is this; It is a fight about the government taking away our ability to choose.

So yes, i fight the anti smoking campaign, i am a card carrying ABATE member who fights against helmet laws and i am a gun toting card carrying member of the NRA as well.

We both need to be free to live with our choices either way we choose. Your path leads to destruction of those freedoms.  

Will you fight when they tell you how much you can weigh? What you can eat? How many children you can bear? What type of sexuality you can practice? What age you will be allowed to live to? Where you can live?

Or will you lie back quietly and do what Uncle Sam tell you to do, because he has all the findings and even some of the facts.

Hmmm….i finally checked your profile and you are a domme? Amusing that you are so ready to submit………


< Message edited by twicehappy -- 8/9/2006 1:22:11 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 397
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 2:30:02 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		It is a quandry.  Most of us beleive it is good and right to have standards and legal consequences to parents who do harm to their children.  Interestingly enough, no one cares about how to try and make parents less likely to do harm in the first place, but that's another issue.

The question of whether second hand smoking does harm, or whether it does harm to the point of something there should be legal consequences for are serious questions, and not to be taken lightly at all.  I know that my health was certainly compromised growing up due to being in a heavy second hand smoke environment.  Do I think my gaurdians should have been ordered to quit or face fines or even have myself and my sister taken away? 

And obviously for adults there's no real issue at all- inside there should be separate sections, outside there shouldn't be a problem.

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Profile   Post #: 398
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 3:00:00 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		And obviously for adults there's no real issue at all- inside there should be separate sections, outside there shouldn't be a problem.

I agree LA. And wasn't that the way it was before all this nonsense started?

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Profile   Post #: 399
RE: Second hand smoke - 8/9/2006 3:14:25 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

And wasn't that the way it was before all this nonsense started?

It was indeed, not that the idea ever had a chance of working.  Smoke never seemed to obey the little signs that say Non-Smoking Section and I don't think that's changed recently.

~stef

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Profile   Post #: 400
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