RE: Second hand smoke (Full Version)

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MistressLorelei -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/26/2006 9:11:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

In what context are you talking about? If you sit in a small room day after day with 20 smokers, I am sure that it will have an effect on you. But you really believe that getting a whiff of cigarette smoke from a smoker 20 yards from you as you sit on the beach is going to harm you? Use your head.

I will refer you to the US Surgeon General... and you can tell him to use his head on this one:
"There is No Risk-Free Level of Exposure to Secondhand Smoke
We know that secondhand smoke harms people’s health, but many people assume that exposure to secondhand smoke in small doses does not do any significant damage to one’s health. However, science has proven that there is NO risk-free level of exposure to secondhand smoke. Let me say that again: there is no safe level of exposure to secondhand smoke.
Breathing secondhand smoke for even a short time can damage cells and set the cancer process in motion. Brief exposure can have immediate harmful effects on blood and blood vessels, potentially increasing the risk of a heart attack. Secondhand smoke exposure can quickly irritate the lungs, or trigger an asthma attack. For some people, these rapid effects can be life-threatening. People who already have heart disease or respiratory conditions are at especially high risk."
Source:  http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/news/speeches/06272006a.html

quote:



I could say that water is bad for you and be right. If you are floating in the middle of the ocean without a life preserver, you will drown. But taking a bath in your home will not harm you.
It is so sad that now it is okay to outlaw something because you don't like it. 


If you guys want to smoke... do it, just don't do it where others want to breathe indoor air  which does not contain carcinogens from your cigarettes.  Fill your homes with all the smoke you like, and smoke in establishments which are pro-cancer anytime you wish. 

mistoferin:
quote:


To the fanatics that are behind and pushing these movements....I would suggest you use caution. Right now it's smoking. The next item on the agenda is obesity. (Gosh I sure hope none of you anti smoking fanatics are carrying a few extra pounds) Soon there could come a day when you could walk back into your job after lunch and be fired because you were seen eating at Burger King. Not given a position because you didn't match the numbers on the height/weight ratio scale.

If we keep allowing our rights to be stripped from us...it won't be long before we don't have any left to fight for.


So don't strip away the right of smokers' to smoke indoors.... Instead, strip away the non-smokers' rights to breathe safe indoor air?  That's the right you want?  You smoke, I choke... and all is right in the world.

I don't want rights to be stripped away.  I often speak about rights for minorities, abortion rights, etc. I, however, don't think it's fanatical to  place more importance in the right to breathe clean air, than the right to take clean air away from others.

When eating Burger King for lunch is proven to infringe on the rights of non-Burger King eating co-workers, as the greasy fat grams are filtered into the air and adding pounds and high cholesterol to others who didn't want to share the poor eating habits of another... you bet people would be complaining! 





mistoferin -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/26/2006 9:17:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
When eating Burger King for lunch is proven to infringe on the rights of non-Burger King eating co-workers, as the greasy fat grams are filtered into the air and adding pounds and high cholesterol to others who didn't want to share the poor eating habits of another... you bet people would be complaining! 


But it has already been proven. A diet high in fat causes major health problems in the long term. Heart disease and colon cancer leading the way. These diseases lead to higher health insurance premiums. Those costs are passed on to everyone, your co-workers, your neighbors and strangers who you've never even met....including me.




MistressLorelei -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/26/2006 9:32:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

But it has already been proven. A diet high in fat causes major health problems in the long term. Heart disease and colon cancer leading the way. These diseases lead to higher health insurance premiums. Those costs are passed on to everyone, your co-workers, your neighbors and strangers who you've never even met....including me.


I agree.... But then... smoking should be banned, right?  We know about the detrimental effects smoking has on those who do it... and our, as you said 'higher health insurance premiums' because of it.  And seat belts should be mandatory, because fatal accidents from non-seat belt wearers hikes up our auto insurance premiums as well, etc. 

Which rights are we wanting to protect again?  Based on your comment about heart disease and cancer causing you higher health premiums, I'd think smoking would be on the top of your ban list.




mistoferin -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/26/2006 9:37:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
Which rights are we wanting to protect again?  Based on your comment about heart disease and cancer causing you higher health premiums, I'd think smoking would be on the top of your ban list.


No actually none of them are on my ban list...you missed my point. I am not into banning things...or losing rights. I would prefer the government stay the hell out of my life. I stand on the side of adults being able to make their own choices. If I want to smoke a cigarette, I don't want there to be a law against it. If I want to eat a bloody red steak...I don't want there to be a law against it. If I want to eat my eggs sunny side up...I don't want there to be a law against it.




Termyn8or -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/26/2006 9:44:07 PM)

Geezus, it is sooooooo simple.

Put a sign on each public place whether it is smoking or not. Period. People go where they want.

If I own a business I make the rules. As long as that cannot be true of a restaurant, I will not own a restaurant. The city can go fuck themselves, but I'll tell you what, my non-smoking section will have an ample supply of clean, filtered air. If that is not good enough, I'll simply do without your business.

I think places that are more bar oriented would win with the smokers, and food oriented places would do better with non-smokers. I suspect if smokers wanted the food bad enough they would simply go and refrain from smoking, then mosey over to the bar to smoke and drink.

So instead of smoking and non-smoking areas, we have businesses, possibly even buildings. I've been to a building that had about six bars in it. That place is not going non-smoking. But down the street there is a retaurant................

One final comment ; When people start bitching about people smoking outside they have gone too far. Get over it. We are not giving up any more. Go away of you don't like us, and take your perfume and air fresheners with you, I can't stand those things. I want to smell food, smoke or air, not the secret formula you wear that's probably more of a carcinogen than cigarettes could ever hope to be.

You think there's nasty shit in tobacco ? take a look at your shampoo, do you know what those things are ? What about FDS, and deodorant ? You can't tell what any of this crap is anymore.

When I buy soap I buy Ivory. That is soap, I recognize it. Only a bit more refined than lye soap. Well when I go to get soap, I want soap, not a bunch of additives. If I decide I want something other than soap I will go get it.

Look in your medicine cabinets and read me all the ingredients off all the bottles. Then tell me which are good and no-good. Not going to happen.

T




MistressLorelei -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/26/2006 9:49:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
Which rights are we wanting to protect again?  Based on your comment about heart disease and cancer causing you higher health premiums, I'd think smoking would be on the top of your ban list.


No actually none of them are on my ban list...you missed my point. I am not into banning things...or losing rights. I would prefer the government stay the hell out of my life. I stand on the side of adults being able to make their own choices. If I want to smoke a cigarette, I don't want there to be a law against it. If I want to eat a bloody red steak...I don't want there to be a law against it. If I want to eat my eggs sunny side up...I don't want there to be a law against it.


I agree with you to a point, and agree to disagree about the rest.

I want rights and choices for all too.  I don't want to smoke, but if others want to, they should be able to anywhere, except in  public places where others are harmed directly and physically as smokers enjoy their right to smoke... and their "right" to harm others simultaneously.





Estring -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/26/2006 11:23:56 PM)

I will refer you to the US Surgeon General... and you can tell him to use his head on this one:
"There is No Risk-Free Level of Exposure to Secondhand Smoke

With all due respect to The Surgeon General, that is just not true. Common sense will tell you that is not true. Getting a whiff of smoke from across the street is not going to harm anyone. If that was the case, we better ban barbeques too, or campfires, or for that matter, cars. Or we had better all live in bubbles. Just admit that you don't like smoking, and that is why you want it banned. Don't hide behind some bogus statements about health. At least be honest. 




MistressLorelei -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/26/2006 11:50:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

I will refer you to the US Surgeon General... and you can tell him to use his head on this one:
"There is No Risk-Free Level of Exposure to Secondhand Smoke

With all due respect to The Surgeon General, that is just not true. Common sense will tell you that is not true. Getting a whiff of smoke from across the street is not going to harm anyone. If that was the case, we better ban barbeques too, or campfires, or for that matter, cars. Or we had better all live in bubbles. Just admit that you don't like smoking, and that is why you want it banned. Don't hide behind some bogus statements about health. At least be honest. 


I don't want smoking banned... just banned in  most public indoor locations.  I won't walk into a 'Cigar Bar' and expect there to be no smoking. 

Maybe this is why campfires, barbeques and cars are located OUTSIDE!   I don't think smelling smoke of a cigarette from across the street is what is being considered as 'being exposed to second hand smoke'. 

You will have to take up a case with the Surgeon General as to why he's wrong in his conclusion after years of research on this matter. 

I don't like a lot of things... but I don't want everything banned.   I hate smoking, so I don't want to do it first handed or second handed... Don't I have that right; that personal freedom? 

I respect your right to smoke... do it all you want, but not all over me.




Estring -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/27/2006 12:00:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

I will refer you to the US Surgeon General... and you can tell him to use his head on this one:
"There is No Risk-Free Level of Exposure to Secondhand Smoke

With all due respect to The Surgeon General, that is just not true. Common sense will tell you that is not true. Getting a whiff of smoke from across the street is not going to harm anyone. If that was the case, we better ban barbeques too, or campfires, or for that matter, cars. Or we had better all live in bubbles. Just admit that you don't like smoking, and that is why you want it banned. Don't hide behind some bogus statements about health. At least be honest. 


I don't want smoking banned... just banned in  most public indoor locations.  I won't walk into a 'Cigar Bar' and expect there to be no smoking. 

Maybe this is why campfires, barbeques and cars are located OUTSIDE! 

You will have to take up a case with the Surgeon General as to why he's wrong in his conclusion after years of research on this matter. 

I don't like a lot of things... but I don't want everything banned.   I hate smoking, so I don't want to do it first handed or second handed... Don't I have that right; that personal freedom? 

I respect your right to smoke... do it all you want, but not all over me.


Then why is smoking being banned in outdoor facilities such as sport stadiums? Why is it being banned at beaches? Why is it banned from outdoor restaurants? They are all outside as barbeques and campfires are. It just seems so obvious that a whiff of smoke from someone down the beach from you, or someone sitting in row g50 is not harmful. Do you get offended or afraid when smelling a distant campfire? I doubt it.
And no one is forcing you to smoke. And by the way, I don't smoke and never have. I just don't like people changing the truth to suit their agenda. 




MistressLorelei -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/27/2006 12:23:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Then why is smoking being banned in outdoor facilities such as sport stadiums? Why is it being banned at beaches? Why is it banned from outdoor restaurants? They are all outside as barbeques and campfires are. It just seems so obvious that a whiff of smoke from someone down the beach from you, or someone sitting in row g50 is not harmful. Do you get offended or afraid when smelling a distant campfire? I doubt it.
And no one is forcing you to smoke. And by the way, I don't smoke and never have. I just don't like people changing the truth to suit their agenda. 


It's the close proximity in public places.  I have the right to not breathe someone else's harmful air in a public arena.  If I pay $400 for a pair of Dolphins tickets... and am stuck sitting with a smoker on each side of me, I should have to inhale harmful fumes 2 inches away for 3-4 hours?    There are designated places for smokers to take a break and smoke till their heart's content.

I wouldn't think it was okay to bring harmful pollutants into the stadium and spray them while sitting in my seat.  Nor would it be okay to set up a bon fire, or barbeque from my seat.  
.
I don't like smoking,  but I am not changing truth to suit my agenda.  The truth is smoking is harmful to the smoker and to the second hand smoker.... the smoker has the right to harm himself, whether I like smoking or not.... but he can't harm others who don't wish to be harmed. 

No point in going on.... I don't see why people are so insistent on having the right to harm others when they can participate in their habit in places where it is allowed, and will only harm people who consent to it.




ShiftedJewel -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/27/2006 3:35:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Can we get a list or at least a menu where people can check off the Freedoms they are willing to relinquish versus the ones they want to fight for?

Smoking
Seat Beats
MC Helmets
Riding in the back of pick-up trucks
BDSM websites
Nudity
(feel free to add more)

How about a ban on pompous asses who need to use profanity in an attempt to make a strong point with a weak mind? Can we make a law to outlaw them? [:'(]


The right to bare arms.
The right to own and operate my own business.
The right to marry who I want and when I want.
The right to worship and practice whatever religion I choose.
 
Just to name a few.

quote:

There seem to be smokers, non smokers....and then there are anti smoking fanatics. The whole issue is getting ridiculous. Companies can now fire you for smoking...or refuse to hire you in the first place based upon your smoking status. People are losing custody of their children because they are smokers. There are towns that are trying to become smoke free...so it won't even be legal to smoke inside your own home.

To the fanatics that are behind and pushing these movements....I would suggest you use caution. Right now it's smoking. The next item on the agenda is obesity. (Gosh I sure hope none of you anti smoking fanatics are carrying a few extra pounds) Soon there could come a day when you could walk back into your job after lunch and be fired because you were seen eating at Burger King. Not given a position because you didn't match the numbers on the height/weight ratio scale.

If we keep allowing our rights to be stripped from us...it won't be long before we don't have any left to fight for.


Two of the most intelligent points on this thread.

You people bitch all you want, but when it starts hitting home, when they start taking away some of the things that matter to you.... remember how hard you fought to take away individual freedoms of others and consider it Karma. Cuz' it's gonna happen folks, just keep being the good little sheep and believe all the bogus bs that comes out of the mouths of polititians and it won't be long before you pay the price as well.
 
Then what? Then you count on the "rebels" among us to bail you out and return your right to eat fast food and gain 300 pounds if that's what you want to do, the freedom to own your own business and allow whoever you want to work for you, the choice of your grown children to be happy with whatever life partner suits them.... personally, I'll be among the gun totin', cigarette smokin' populace living in the sewers and throwing stones at the sheep herders.
 
Jewel




twicehappy -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/27/2006 5:09:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Yes twicehappy, we have a high pressure system that sits over california for most of the year meaning our air goes no where, not to mention people from other states keep moving in and contributing to the problem.. you see climate and population cause our problems.. and this is something most of us learn about in high school when studying about climate science. Air that doesn't move doesn't clean itself.. it is also why we have the strictest standards on car pollution nationwide and other types of emissions


Gee, your implication that i did not attend high school is a little insulting; i graduated from John Hopkins University and School of Nursing , where did you attend school?

No one was questioning why California is polluted only stating that it was and noting that the air where you live probably has more to do with your son's asthma than smoking.

quote:

A amjor air polluter in california is Long Beach Harbor,.... which is responsible for much of the cheap shit you buy at your local walmart.. but then again california is the reason why the USA is number one economically in the world, take us away and you wouldn't be. 


California does have the highest gross income per state at 1,660,794 million dollars, but when you subtract the 1,621,846 million dollars that is generated by the motion picture industry it only leaves roughly less than 8000 million dollars produced by the rest of the state.

Gross National Product by Region

Southeast       2,779,264

Mid East         2,263,453

Far West         2,239,824

Great Lakes   1,836,745

South West      1,388,034

Plains              794,607

New England   690,690

Rocky Mtns.      410350

Seems to me the USA would continue to exist without California or the Far Western region of the country just fine; as you can see by the table from the Federal Bureau of Economics it would hurt us more to lose the South Eastern or Mid Eastern regions which do not depend on one industry. After all we can live without movies, we cannot live without food.


quote:

is ironic if smoking didn't trigger him how he would have attacks when anyone lit up in his presense, but not otherwise. I think this is a little weird that people would have a hard time understanding that exposure to any burning plant could cause an allergic response, why would cigarettes be any different..


Here is a list from NIH that gives the various things that set off asthma attacks.


The list below gives some examples of things that can bring on asthma symptoms. 

Irritants, Air pollution, Cigarette smoke, Cold air or changes in weather, Strong odors from painting or cooking, Scented products, Strong emotional expression (including crying or laughing hard) and stress
Allergens, Animal dander (from the skin, hair, or feathers of animals),Dust mites (contained in house dust) ,Cockroaches ,Pollen from trees and grass, Mold (indoor and outdoor).
Others, Medicines such as aspirin and beta-blockers, Sulfites in food (dried fruit) or beverages (wine), A condition called gastroesophageal  reflux disease that causes heartburn and can worsen asthma symptoms, especially at night, Irritants or allergens that you may be exposed to at your work, such as special chemicals or dusts, Infections

You are against smoking because you claim it sets off your son's attacks, correct? So are you also joining the party to ban animals, grass, trees, painting, cooking, perfume, emotions, cold air or weather of any kind, and medicines?

And air pollution is number one on the list, California has the worst air quality of any state but apparently that does not bother you enough to move to prevent your son's asthma attacks. Seems a little backwards to me that you care enough to protest against smoking but not enough to remove your child from an environment where he breathes the number one cause of asthma attacks 24/7.  After all you can ask people not to smoke in your home but you cannot stop him from breathing.






twicehappy -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/27/2006 5:12:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tamerofwild1s

yep . them be the ones


Damnit! I knew there was a good reason i preferred to be an outlaw anti establishment biker type besides the Harleys and hot sweaty long haired tattooed hunks in leathers.





FangsNfeet -> RE: Second hand smoke (7/27/2006 3:17:32 PM)

"Not only that, if you die and are a smoker, your death is listed as smoking related, no matter the cause. "

So smoking killed JFK?




SirHedonicsslave -> RE: Second hand smoke (8/2/2006 10:35:43 AM)

i can give you one example of why "asthma" has been on the increase.....
because i smoke...not in the home, but outside, my oldest is diagnosed "borderline asthmatic"....because the doctor said so.....she's never wheezed, never had an asthma attack.....she does have allergies....to Penicillin and to new carpet...lots of smoke in new carpet i guess.
my youngest is diagnosed asthmatic.....although she has NEVER had an attack, never wheezes, never shows a single sign of asthma.....but, it is on her medical records.....
Why?   because at 7 weeks old she was intubated for 9 days due to one of her lungs collapsing totally and the other partially (she had RSV)...and the PICU docs said on her report to her regular doc that she "might become asthmatic in the future"....and because i smoke...although i never smoked in the home or while holding her or where she could breathe it.  I would even go out and smoke and come in and change my shirt before i picked her up.....didn't want her getting any of the smell of the smoke....
I still haven't figured any of this out....but, it's on their medical records and not much can be done about that.
I'm quitting smoking for my own good....but it just doesn't make much sense some of the limitations....Smokers...stay away from Missouri hospitals....it's now illegal to smoke ANYWHERE on the property...even outside...guess we could go stand in the street and smoke...lol.  And there's a town in Arkansas that it's illegal to smoke pretty much anywhere in public(thank the wife of the late Wal-Mart founder for that one....she believes that smoking is against moral values...hmmmmm...walmart does still sell them don't they???)........just think....this kind of bull crap just might be coming to a town near you........kinda reeks of the old "prohibition"....be a smoke runner instead of liquor?????





EnglishDomNW -> RE: Second hand smoke (8/2/2006 12:41:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

If you guys want to smoke... do it, just don't do it where others want to breathe indoor air  which does not contain carcinogens from your cigarettes.  Fill your homes with all the smoke you like, and smoke in establishments which are pro-cancer anytime you wish. 



I edited this rant.


Please remember, 99.99999999999999% of smokers will never smoke around you your whole life so as a group, we don't need your permission or approval to do something we enjoy. 

Anyway, to show you how ludicrously the anti-smoking lobby get about things, they complained about James Bond being shown smoking a cigar in "Die Another Day".  Despite the fact he had unprotected sex, drove like a lunatic through crowded areas firing a hail of bullets throughout the film, the biggest complaint was "he smoked a cigar".

You have to wonder at some point "are they really complaining about smoking?"

Or is it just an excuse to attack people doing something (legal) they don't like?

Get a new witch to hunt, I'm going for a cigarette.

(Rant over)

I think the anti-smoking people have issues that aren't related to smoking.




mistoferin -> RE: Second hand smoke (8/2/2006 12:52:39 PM)

Omg...is this still going????

I have an idea...why don't we combine this thread with all the gun control threads and just shoot everyone who can't agree? Of course, they will be allowed one last cigarette if they are smokers though.




CrappyDom -> RE: Second hand smoke (8/2/2006 2:17:51 PM)

My opinion of smokers is this, if they can fill my lungs with that shit, I should have the freedom to urinate and probably defecate on their legs.  Why do they want to oppress and take away this fundamental right of mine to shit all over them I just have no idea.  Isn't America all about freedom?




EnglishDomNW -> RE: Second hand smoke (8/2/2006 7:03:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

My opinion of smokers is this, if they can fill my lungs with that shit, I should have the freedom to urinate and probably defecate on their legs.  Why do they want to oppress and take away this fundamental right of mine to shit all over them I just have no idea.  Isn't America all about freedom?



Gawd........Why do they always have to go overboard?

If we're not arsonists, we're global polluters, or we are actively killing you by smoking 100 yards away on a busy street full of traffic and this "homing smoke" zooms directly up their nostrils.

I think anti-smokers have a case for not wanting smokers to smoke near them. 

But I also think this is less about smoking and more about finding someone to blame for everything wrong in your lives.




Dtesmoac -> RE: Second hand smoke (8/2/2006 7:30:18 PM)

Estring - ref no safe limit to smoke.

Any material designated as a carcinogen is generally in tests found to have no safe exposure level, unlike other hazardous materials where your body can normally deal with a certain quantity of the substance with no adverse effects they find in epidemialogical studies with cancer causing agents that even the smallest exposure changes the chances (however small that chance)of experiencing Cancer and therefore on the dose response graph there is no safe limit. 

Smoking can also dramatically increase the affects of exposure to other cocktails of harmful substances, susecptability to Asbestos related diseaes is also higher in smokers than non smokers. I don't like eating in a smokey environment it changes the taste of the food, but beer and good conversation in a smokers den is fine and the odd expsoure only increases my lung cancer risks by 0.000 bloody little, and thats less than the fact my house will be under water soon because of all the carbon your vehicles are shoving into the atmosphere.

If we band smoking, drinking, fornicating, planes and cars my life would be shortened........by the concrete path as I jumped depressed from my window....... 




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