RE: Flint Water Situation (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/15/2016 9:40:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Isn't Flint doco-maker Michael Moore's home town and place of residence?

I'm surprised none of our resident Right wingers has noted this and drawn (what might be to them) the obvious connections and conclusions ......


Thats because we prefer to debate issues not character assassinations. You're surprised because it doesn't comport with how *you* debate.




Phydeaux -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/15/2016 10:00:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Here's a .. less partisan rendering of events.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karegnondi_Water_Authority
And.. just to add insult to injury.
The lead we're talking about doesn't actually come from the flint water source.
It seems for years, the city and state falsified lead testing results. http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/11/documents_show_city_filed_fals.html
The lead contaminating the water is coming from old lead pipes, with 15,000 homes still having them, and the even MORE pipes that used 50% lead solder.
Now there has been widespread reports that the lead problem was because of a failure to add orthophoshate. However, tests showed that orthophosphate did not resolve the issue. http://flintwaterstudy.org/tag/lead-corrosion/
Now, the decision to stop using detroit city water and use flint water was made before Flint went bankrupt.
Here's a bit of the timeline
The water authority was set up in 2007
In 2010 the trustees of the various cities met for the first time.
2011 Flint has its manager appointed due to poor finances.
The authority (controlled by democrats) decide to continue, while flint studied the question.
Flint decides to continue based on engineering studies by Rowe Engineering.
2013 the Army Corp of Engineering grands final permits.
March 2013 Flint decides to buy water from the authority.
October 2013, a bunch more democrats added to the authority.
So, look this is cynical partisan politics at its worst - "never let an emergency go to waste".
The fact of the matter is that a bad engineering decision was made - no doubts.
But these decisions were not made by Snyder. The decision to build the flint project was made by the water authority which was overwelmingly democrat.
Flint, eventually decided to purchase water- as did every other city. Yet you don't hear a witch hunt against those democrats -- even though they are facing the same exact issues.
I am curious about one thing... why not just turn the water back on from detroit?
Making this a partisan issue is vile.


Phydeaux, it's correct that the lead is coming from the solder used to sweat the copper plumbing. However, the switch to the Flint River is the even that changed what was going through that plumbing. Apparently, the water has a different chemical profile, leading to the lead leaching out. I've read several articles on this, and there was some mention of the water from Detroit containing a chemical that prevents or limits this leaching. I can't recall if the Flint River water degraded this prevention chemical, or it's not being used by that water authority, though I think it was the former.





Sigh. The water from the flint river has high levels of chlorides and chlorates. Which reacts with the solder to make it more water soluble.
Often orthophoshate (as I said twice earlier) is added to the water to prevent that. Tests were done, and it was shone that orthophosphate was not effective, for reasons no one here will be remotely interested in, since its, yanno, actual science.

So there was a lot of hoopla because the ortho phosphate wasn't being used - you're poisoning the children.

It wasn't used because it didn't work.




Phydeaux -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/15/2016 10:24:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Dear sweet heaven, yes, I found a gem.
quote:

If it went mainstream with a fair presentation I had no need to comment.

You wouldnt know mainstream, if it mangled your face.
And with that for tonite im outta here...
[sm=LMAO.gif]


This whole thing is rather predictable. .

Flint hasn't elected a republican mayor since its charter in 1974. 41 years of democrat rule did exactly what 41 years of liberal democrat rule does in virtually every circumstance. Bankruptcy. Democrats fuck up big time, as in this case. They pass feel good legislation that costs money; they cozy up to unions and cronys of the dim party - they go bankrupt

Feelings,appearances, and appeasing democrat constituent are more important than factual analysis and competency. You know most government projects just pay too much, are way behind schedule due to featherbedding - but no these guys are so incompetent they can't even deliver water - something as simple as pump water from point a to point b - something every fucking city in the country does.

And then when it all blows up - somehow its the republican governors fault - because its more important to get partisan gain from it.

The democrats responsible for this debacle have know for years they were cheating on the testing protocol.
The democrat in charge of the EPA knew for a year they were poisoning people.

You want to target people - then you target the people that properly deserve it. You send the democrat CEO of the Karegondi Water authority packing.
Send Sarreh Hiddeath of the EPA to jail for willful endangermeant.

You want to hold people responsible - fire the city council, and the people that cheated on the water testing.
Think about it- they have one job to test the water of their constituents to make sure that its safe - and they failed. But you'd rather hold the governor responsible.

Well bullshit. Its time you democrats quit killing people and actually work to protect the people you're supposed to serve. Stop giving democrats a pass because they're democrats. Flint by itself is a terrible example of what happens in every single place the liberal democrats have ruled by single party fiat for 50 years - whether its chicago, philadelphia, detroit, gary indiana, or washington dc.






tj444 -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/15/2016 10:33:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

And when tlj says..
quote:

" To poison all the children in an historic American city is no small feat. Even international terrorist organizations haven't figured out yet how to do something on a magnitude like this.
well that sure sounds like an attack.



Ummm... tj (that would be me) didn't say that.. Micheal Moore (an angry resident & water drinker of Flint) said it.. He has a website.. if what he said bothers you, take yer bitching over to him.. (link to his website is below his quote in my previous post)..




Phydeaux -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/15/2016 10:48:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

And when tlj says..
quote:

" To poison all the children in an historic American city is no small feat. Even international terrorist organizations haven't figured out yet how to do something on a magnitude like this.
well that sure sounds like an attack.



Ummm... tj (that would be me) didn't say that.. Micheal Moore (an angry resident & water drinker of Flint) said it.. He has a website.. if what he said bothers you, take yer bitching over to him.. (link to his website is below his quote in my previous post)..


You posted it without editing it out. Means you thought it was worth saying. IF you didn't, edit it out. Own up to your quotes.




tj444 -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/15/2016 11:24:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

And when tlj says..
quote:

" To poison all the children in an historic American city is no small feat. Even international terrorist organizations haven't figured out yet how to do something on a magnitude like this.
well that sure sounds like an attack.



Ummm... tj (that would be me) didn't say that.. Micheal Moore (an angry resident & water drinker of Flint) said it.. He has a website.. if what he said bothers you, take yer bitching over to him.. (link to his website is below his quote in my previous post)..


You posted it without editing it out. Means you thought it was worth saying. IF you didn't, edit it out. Own up to your quotes.

It was HIS expression of how pissed off he was, as a resident and someone having been poisoned by govt actions.. to edit it out or various other parts would have diminished HIS expression of anger, why should I edit out his anger??? He has a right to be angry, doesnt he?.. I bolded the part I thought was most interesting, however.. if I thought the part you focused on was important then i would have bolded it as well, but I didnt.. and quite frankly, if Americans poison other Americans, its your business as an American to do something about it (or not).. apparently that doesnt concern you much since you are blabbing away about democratic politicians and focusing on one sentence out of the entire page and not focusing on the actual poisoning of your fellow Americans!.. yeah, people like you is what makes America great (sarcasm)..




angelikaJ -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/15/2016 3:23:04 PM)

FR:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/15/this-is-how-toxic-flints-water-really-is/?wpmm=1&wpisrc=nl_evening

"A group of Virginia Tech researchers who sampled the water in 271 Flint homes last summer found some contained lead levels high enough to meet the EPA's definition of "toxic waste."..."




Phydeaux -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/16/2016 9:29:59 PM)

So why was detroit water so expensive..

Public unions.

The outside audit firm found staggering levels of
inefficiency and waste in the Detroit Water and
Sewerage Department (“DWSD”), including an
average cost of $86,135 per employee for close to
2,000 employees, when fewer than 400 would suffice.
The report also concluded that the Department’s 257
job classifications—containing three to five skill
levels per classification—could be reduced to 31.
Auditors estimated that the recommended reduction
and outsourcing measures would save the
Department roughly $900 million over a decade.

Only it turns out the City of detroit water didn't comply with environmental requirements either..


But the public impact of this waste was not
merely financial. In a September 9, 2011 order,
United States District Judge Sean Cox found that
the DWSD’s collective bargaining-induced
inefficiencies were preventing it from meeting its
minimum environmental requirements under the
federal Clean Water Act. Noting that the department
19
had remained in a recurring cycle of non-compliance
for over thirty years, Judge Cox listed several “root
causes” for the continued non-compliance, including:
“excessive and unnecessary delays in hiring qualified
personnel”; “the DWSD’s required use of the City’s
Human Resources Department, resulting in
significant delays in filling critical positions at the
DWSD”; “the City’s personnel policies, civil service
rules, and union rules and agreements, restricting
the compensation, recruitment and prompt hiring of
necessary personnel”; and “obsolete job descriptions
and qualifications.” United States v. City of Detroit,
No. 77-71100, 2011 WL 4014409, at *22 (E.D. Mich.
Sept. 9, 2011).
Finding specifically that “certain CBA [collective
bargaining agreement] provisions and work rules”
were “impeding the DWSD from achieving and
maintaining both short-term and long-term
compliance with its NPDES permit and the Clean
Water Act,” the court struck and enjoined then-inforce
CBA provisions or work rules that threatened
compliance and prohibited future CBAs from
containing terms that threaten long-term
compliance. United States v. City of Detroit, No. 77-
71100, Dkt. 2410, at *4–6 (E.D. Mich. Nov. 4, 2011)

Since the union controlled Detroit water hasn't provided safe water persuant to the Federal clean water act

FOR 30 YEARS - how about we fire them all, and actually get the job done... hmm>>




thompsonx -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/16/2016 9:43:02 PM)

Since the union controlled Detroit water hasn't provided safe water persuant to the Federal clean water act

FOR 30 YEARS - how about we fire them all, and actually get the job done... hmm>>

False premis will always insure a false conclusion...or at least the concllusion you wish to pose.




bounty44 -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/17/2016 3:55:52 AM)

and the false premise there is what?

that unions (or even government) are more inefficient compared to their counterparts?

its the only premise I see underlying the post. if you see another one, bring it forward. if you refute that one (which is mind boggling), do so with evidence. you know, like show us all how the JUDGE in this case was wrong.






Lucylastic -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/17/2016 4:04:47 AM)

DETROIT—U.S. President Barack Obama signed an emergency declaration Saturday that clears the way for federal aid for Flint, Mich., which is undergoing a drinking water crisis.
The White House also said the Federal Emergency Management Agency will co-ordinate all disaster relief efforts to “alleviate the hardship and suffering” of residents. FEMA has been authorized to provide water, filters, cartridges and other items for 90 days. Flint can get up to $5 million in direct funding, although the state must match 25 per cent, and more money can come through an act of Congress.
Republican Gov. Rick Snyder requested emergency and disaster declarations late Thursday, saying needs “far exceed the state’s capability,” and added that emergency measures could cost $41 million.
Snyder said Saturday that Obama denied the disaster declaration request based on the legal requirement that such relief is intended for natural events, fires, floods or explosions. Despite the legal limitation, the governor is considering an appeal to exhaust “every opportunity to provide resources” for residents, his spokesman, Dave Murray, said.
The tap water in Flint, population 99,000, became contaminated after the city switched from the Detroit water system to the Flint River while a pipeline to Lake Huron is under construction. The decision to use the river was made while a Snyder-appointed emergency manager was running city government because of its financial problems. The corrosive water from the Flint River lacked adequate treatment and caused lead to leach from old pipes in homes and schools.
Flint returned to the Detroit system in October after elevated lead levels were discovered in children and could tap into the new pipeline by summer. But officials remain concerned that old pipes could continue to leach lead, to which exposure can cause behaviour problems and learning disabilities in children, as well as kidney ailments in adults.
The National Guard has been distributing free water, filters and other supplies and FEMA workers were already providing logistical and technical support.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/01/16/obama-approves-emergency-aid-over-flint-water-crisis.html




MrRodgers -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/17/2016 7:21:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

So.. just curious here.

The mayor of flint is a democrat - dayne walling.
Susan Hedman - in charge of the EPA district 5, who knew about lead levels since April - is a democrat.
The state department of water quality originally entered under the democrat governor - pretty good bet he's a democrat. Dan Wyant.
The Geneese County Board of Commissioners - has 8 democrats and 1 republican.
The County Water executive and Karegnondi Water Authority is Jeff Wright - also a democrat.
The Representative for the district is Dan Kildee - a democrat.
The leader of the Senate Democrats is Jim Ananich - from Flint.
The state representative is Sheldon Neeley - D Flint.
Both US senators - Gary Peters, and Debbie Stabenow - are democrats.


And yet somehow.. you want to blame the Republican Governor.

And you think bounty should stop posting partisan dribble.


But as long you are making this once again a partisan issue, it is my understanding that the state's contribution (along with roads & water) was decreased and of course, they are republican 'fiscal' conservatives [sic] and accordingly a Snyder-appointed emergency manager was appointed to switch to the Flint water infrastructure which had decayed to a dangerous level. (some parts 100 years old) So just who is really to blame for all of this ?

HERE

HERE

"For years, residents in this city bleeding jobs and soaked in red ink have been facing growing water bills. Some have climbed as high as several hundred dollars a month." Gee I wonder why ?

HERE




Lucylastic -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/17/2016 6:27:38 PM)

Flint’s water contamination crisis began in April 2014 after Darnell Earley, an unelected emergency manager appointed by Snyder, switched Flint’s water source to the long-polluted and corrosive Flint River in a bid to save money. Earley is now the emergency manager of Detroit Public Schools. This week, Detroit’s teachers have staged a series of "sickouts" to protest the vast underfunding of the public schools, which have black mold, rat infestations, crumbling buildings and inadequate staffing. We are joined by Curt Guyette, an investigative reporter for the ACLU of Michigan whose work focuses on emergency management and open government. Michigan has the most sweeping emergency management laws in the country, which allow the governor to appoint a single person to run financially troubled cities.

TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, we’re also joined by Curt Guyette, an investigative reporter for the ACLU of Michigan. His work focuses on emergency management and open government. Michigan has the most sweeping emergency management laws in the country, which allow the governor to appoint a single person to run financially troubled cities. Emergency Manager Darnell Earley, who presided over the Flint water switch, is now the emergency manager of the Detroit public school system. This week, Detroit’s teachers have staged a series of "sickouts" to protest the vast underfunding of the public schools, which have black mold, rat infestation, crumbling buildings and inadequate staffing. Detroit teachers say they have up to 45 or 50 students in some classrooms.

AMY GOODMAN: So, Curt Guyette, can you talk about how this man, who is the one who ultimately pushed the switch, relying on the—turning from the Detroit water system to Flint’s river, that has poisoned so many people, is now in charge of the Detroit Public Schools? And we’re hearing health problems, not to mention education problems.

CURT GUYETTE: Well, one of the things about the emergency manager law is that these managers were given extreme unchecked authority. And the thinking was, the reason for doing that is they were given the ability to come in, clean up the problems and get out. And so there was an 18-month time limit put on their terms. Except that this governor is exploiting what amounts to a loophole in that law. So what happens is that these emergency managers serve for 17 months and 29 days, and the day before their term expires, they resign. A new emergency manager is put in place, and the clock starts ticking all over again. And they just shuffle them from one place to another. So Earley goes from Flint to run DPS. And it just perpetuates this control. It can go on, really, forever, if they want it to, denying people of their democratically elected representation, because the school board, which has been fighting emergency management every step of the way, gets completely marginalized. They have zero authority whatsoever. And that goes to the heart of the problem of this law. It eliminates the democratic checks and balances that make a democracy functional.

And the other thing is, what we’re seeing here is really the imposition of austerity. This is what austerity looks like. So you have all the problems in these schools that you just reported on, because they’re treating it like a managerial problem rather than a structural problem. I’ve used before the analogy: It’s like being the captain of the Titanic, and you hit an iceberg. It doesn’t matter who’s at the helm; the ship is going down unless you plug the hole. And they haven’t plugged the holes. They haven’t fixed the structural problems.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Curt Guyette—Curt, we have just about a minute, but I just wanted to ask you, in terms of the cities that Governor Snyder has chosen to institute these emergency managers, what’s the racial composition of a lot of these cities?

CURT GUYETTE: With the exception of one, they are all majority African-American. And they’re also all very poor cities. So this is a racial issue, and it’s a class issue.

AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Dr. Hanna-Attisha, I wanted to go back to this question of Legionnaires’ disease. I mean, if it could get any worse, is there a connection between the water contamination, the lead poisoning and Legionnaires’ disease?

DR. MONA HANNA-ATTISHA: Well, I’m not an expert on Legionnaires’, but the water chemistry was a perfect setup for this to happen. The corrosive water that was untreated with corrosion control not only leached lead, but it also leached iron from the pipes. And iron eats up the chlorine, which you need to kill your bacteria. And then the iron also served as a nutrient or food for bacteria to overgrow. So it was a perfect setup for outbreaks like this.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you both for being with us. Of course, we’ll continue to follow this story. Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha of Hurley Children’s Hospital, and Curt Guyette, an investigative journalist with the ACLU of Michigan, thanks so much for joining us.




thompsonx -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/17/2016 7:04:41 PM)


ORIGINAL: bounty44

and the false premise there is what?

Comrade has terminal stupidity taken over your thought process?

that unions (or even government) are more inefficient compared to their counterparts?

It is pretty clear that the government (demopubs and republicrats)has done it's best to phoque this up by making political decissions as opposed to water quality decissions. Would making it a financial/comercial decission solve the problem in favor of those who have to drink the water? or those who would profit financially from the decission?





Phydeaux -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/17/2016 10:37:13 PM)

Proving that once again you didn't read or dispute a damn fact I posted.

The facts on the ground are this.


1. The decision to build a water source from flint watr river was made 4 YEARS before flint went bankrupt.
2. 11 cities and municipalities - all democrat - are having the same issue as flint - but the only one you want to talk about is flint. Apparently people having lead poisoning is less important than demonizing the republicans.
3. The city counsel, the elected mayor, and the administrator all concurred in the decision to switch to flint water.
4. None of the emergency managers bankrupted Flint. Fllints unions did that. Flint could not afford to pay for its detroit water; it could not affort to pay its city salaries; it couldn't affort to pay its fire and police.

So instead of blaming the guys who were taksed with trying to get the city working again, to restore services - blame the people who put them there.




Phydeaux -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/17/2016 11:02:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


But as long you are making this once again a partisan issue,


I'm making it a partisan issue? Thats rich- lastic and tj et.al call for the resignation of snyder, yet I'm the one making it partisan by pointing out in excrutiating detail the actual facts on the ground.

More than 8 years of failed efforts by democrats to switch water sources, after the original democrat water source got too expensive, and a town ruined by 41 years of democrat rule could no longer afford water.

quote:


it is my understanding that the state's contribution (along with roads & water) was decreased and of course, they are republican 'fiscal' conservatives [sic]


And yet none of your sources say that. Find a source that actually says something like that - and we'll discuss it.

But more importantly, for the first time michigan is starting to be able to pay its bills. Funding for capital improvement has steadily increased from 2013; debts have been paid down, and moody's had increased michigan's credit rating lowering money wasted to higher interest.

quote:


and accordingly a Snyder-appointed emergency manager was appointed to switch to the Flint water infrastructure which had decayed to a dangerous level. (some parts 100 years old) So just who is really to blame for all of this ?


You're ignoring every single point. Flint made the decision to switch water 4 years before snyders emergeancy manager; and recommitted to the decision with the full support of the planning engineer, the city council, the water board, the mayor. All democrats.


quote:


"For years, residents in this city bleeding jobs and soaked in red ink have been facing growing water bills. Some have climbed as high as several hundred dollars a month." Gee I wonder why ?


Could it be because 50 and 60% rate increases from Detroit were common?

For example:
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/wayne-county/2015/03/11/detroit-water-sewer-rate-increases/70166240/






tweakabelle -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/18/2016 12:42:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Isn't Flint doco-maker Michael Moore's home town and place of residence?

I'm surprised none of our resident Right wingers has noted this and drawn (what might be to them) the obvious connections and conclusions ......


Thats because we prefer to debate issues not character assassinations. You're surprised because it doesn't comport with how *you* debate.

Really????? If that is the case, then I am going to have to find another term for all the character assassination and abuse the Right has thrown at me on these boards. And over time there has been an awful lot of character assassination and abuse - mountains of it, far more than I care to remember. If your claim has any merit, then that abuse wasn't abuse but something else .....

Of course there is another explanation - that you are deluding yourself on this point, just as you regularly delude yourself on other issues. All that is needed for this explanation to be valid is that your behaviour on this issue is consistent with your behaviour on other issues on these boards in the past (and present too).

That seems a far more reasonable and cogent explanation to me.




bounty44 -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/18/2016 4:37:30 AM)

of course one wonders if the liberals (or anyone) were screaming for bill Clinton's head:

http://freebeacon.com/politics/clintons-own-water-pollution-scandal/

quote:

While the Republican field spent their night debating in South Carolina, Hillary Clinton was on MSNBC talking about how “outraged” she is over the water pollution crisis in Michigan and how she “would be doing everything [she] could” to fix it if she were president. However, Clinton’s husband had a similar issue when he was governor of Arkansas.

Clinton has chosen to make the water situation in Flint, Michigan, an issue for her campaign, sending staffers to meet with the town’s mayor and further investigate the emergency. She called out Republican Gov. Rick Snyder for his inaction, saying she was “outraged” he hadn’t brought in federal assistance to help fix the issue.

The issue of government inaction in response to a deteriorating water supply is one that should be familiar to Clinton. In Arkansas, her husband was the target of criticism for standing idly by as the state’s powerful chicken industry contaminated the drinking water supply for 300,000 people with 500,000 tons of chicken waste from northwest Arkansas…

It took Clinton 17 months of being notified of the situation by state health inspectors for him to declare it a “disaster emergency” and get the people in the town connected to a city water supply...

When Clinton ran for president in 1992, his inaction in the face of water pollution was viewed as a major liability for his campaign that President George H. W. Bush could capitalize on.

“Officials of President Bush’s campaign organization are considering a campaign stop in [the White River basin] to highlight Mr. Clinton’s environmental record, or sending a television production crew to the region to film a political advertisement,” the New York Times wrote in 1992.

The Clinton campaign did not respond to a request for comment on whether there is a difference between the Arkansas water contamination problem and the current situation in Michigan.




Lucylastic -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/18/2016 4:50:47 AM)

yeah the chicken industry fouled the water, not the reppublicans in charge of the state who switched to a bad water supply to save a little money.
Lead poisoning was brushed over.
You can try to drag people thru history, It doesnt change the facts that, yes, Republicans took over management because of bad leadership and they poisoned thousands of people in flint, as a result.



And if you think clinton did something bad as well. why are you not calling for ANYONES head as a result?
You wanna ban the EP and regulations, are you in favour of poisoning water and getting away with it?




bounty44 -> RE: Flint Water Situation (1/18/2016 6:46:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
But as long you are making this once again a partisan issue


everything is a "partisan issue" if the predicates of the case are natural consequences of social/political ideology.




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