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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/23/2016 3:14:32 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

• The Life Skills Center of Miami-Dade County, for example, pays 97 percent of its income to a management company as a “continuing fee.” And when the governing board of two affiliated schools in Hollywood tried to eject its managers, the company refused to turn over school money it held — and threatened to press criminal charges against any school officials who attempted to access the money.


sounds like a bad business transaction/relationship to me and if the school ends up being dissatisfied with the management company’s performance, then that company wont be hired back.

quote:

• Many management companies also control the land and buildings used by the schools — sometimes collecting more than 25 percent of a school’s revenue in lease payments, in addition to management fees.


So what?

quote:

• The owners of Academica, the state’s largest charter school operator, collect almost $19 million a year in lease payments on school properties they control in Miami-Dade and Broward counties, audit and property records show.


So what?

quote:

• Charter schools often rely on loans from management companies or other insiders to stay afloat, making charter school governing boards beholden to the managers they oversee. Loans to two Pompano Beach schools were disguised as gifts in financial documents to avoid scrutiny from the school district and make struggling schools appear solvent, the schools’ former managers said in court papers.


Sorry, when someone says “often” and then doesn’t provide numbers. There’s nothing to critique. As far as the loans, on the surface that sounds shady, but without actual dollars, or hearing the case from the other side, hard to judge.

quote:

• At some financially weak schools, tight budgets have forced administrators to cut corners. The cash-strapped Balere Language Academy in South Miami Heights taught its seventh-grade students in a toolshed, records show.


There are no details here. What does “taught its 7th grade students in a tool shed” even mean? Some schools make use of trailers for classes. Colleges even do it. Is a “tool shed” qualitatively different from a trailer? How long did this go on? A week perhaps? A few weeks? Years? See how the knowledge of that matters?

quote:

• The Academy of Arts & Minds in Coconut Grove went weeks without textbooks.


Yeah, stuff like that NEVER happens in public schools.

quote:

• Schools have also been accused of using illegal tactics to bring in more money — charging students illegal fees for standard classes, or faking attendance records to earn more tax dollars, court records show.


How many schools out of how many? Nah, that doesn’t matter does it? And as I mentioned above, then the marketplace works and those schools will go out of business.

quote:

• Charter schools in Miami-Dade take a disproportionately lower share of black, poor and disabled children, records show. One in three students in Miami-Dade traditional public schools are black, while one in five charter school students are black.


And that means what exactly?

quote:

• School district officials also suspect some charter schools have deliberately sought out high-performing students — contrary to the schools’ contracts.


Okay, that’s a humdinger given the bullet point immediately above it.

quote:

• This year, several South Florida charter schools made headlines for violating local rules or state laws, including Arts & Minds, which was accused of charging illegal fees to students,


“accused” but not convicted I see.

quote:

• and Balere, which the school district said turned into an after-hours nightclub on weekends.


Another so what? Any reason why the building cannot be put to whatever use the owners want?

quote:

• In Miami-Dade and Broward, about two in three charter schools are run by management companies, which charge fees ranging from 5 to 18 percent of a school’s income. These fees can exceed $1 million a year at a large charter school.


I wonder if im going to get tired of having to say “so what?” The idea of the marketplace is to sell a product for profit. How is a “management company” essentially any different than the people who run public schools?

quote:

• Statewide, about one in four charter schools have shut down since 1996, either voluntarily or at the command of local school districts — double the national average. Most schools close for financial rather than academic reasons. A Miami Herald review found 19 schools in Miami-Dade and Broward with rents exceeding 20 percent of their income in 2010 — about one in seven South Florida charter schools renting property that year. One Miami Gardens school spent 43 percent of its income on rent, according to audit reports.


So on the surface, it sounds like some schools failed because of bad business practices. There’s a good chance then of those that failed, many of them deserved to. So? That’s the nature of competition.

on another hand, how many of those schools would have "failed financially" is the state helped them in the exact same way as the public schools?

quote:

• Many of the highest rents are charged by landlords with ties to the management companies running the schools, The Miami Herald found. At least 56 charter schools in Miami-Dade and Broward counties sit on land whose owners are tied to management companies, property records show.


Sigh…so what?? Okay, im just going to skip over the last few because its all more of the same. All im reading so far is “we don’t like schools for profit” or “we don’t like capitalism.” Ive not seen one thing in any of the above that is consistent with the journalists’ charge of these things being in conflict with the mission of the schools educating kids.

quote:

Research Comparing Charter Schools and Traditional Public Schools. Information Capsule.

• Most studies have found that charter schools produce achievement gains that are about the same or lower than those found in traditional public schools, although a few studies have concluded that charter schools have a positive effect on student achievement. These inconsistent findings have led some researchers to conclude that the rapid growth of the charter school movement has significantly outpaced the evidence supporting its impact on student achievement. ….
• there may never be a single definitive study that determines if charter or traditional public schools provide students with better learning opportunities


Without looking at the research myself, its hard to judge the veracity of the statement, but lets take it at face value as it doesn’t seem too unreasonable---so according to you then, this is evidence of charter schools being a scam?

quote:

• This Information Capsule also reviews research comparing the qualifications of teachers at charter schools and traditional public schools and student segregation in charter schools. Most studies have found that charter school teachers have less teaching experience than teachers at traditional public schools


No duh and so what (yet again); experience doesn’t necessarily equate to quality and the teachers are likely younger in their careers and looking for opportunities.

quote:

• In addition, charter schools appear to intensify racial and economic segregation.


The journalists just say it, so it must be true right?

quote:

Charter Schools and Student Achievement in Florida

• by their fifth year of operation new charter schools reach a par with the average traditional public school in math and produce higher reading achievement scores than their traditional public school counterparts


Again, without data, hard to critique and why should I trust any writer who doesn’t provide that? but that said, note the higher reading scores?

quote:

• Among charters, those targeting at-risk and special education students demonstrate lower student achievement,


Do you even know what that is saying? did you read this? its comparing charter schools with other charter schools and saying that those who target at risk and special ed students aren’t doing as well as other charters schools who have normal population. Well duh!

quote:

• Controlling for preexisting traditional public school quality, competition from charter schools is associated with modest increases in math scores and unchanged reading scores in nearby traditional public schools.


This gets pretty tiresome---so now the charter schools are doing better at math too and that’s bad?

After so many bullet points of “pretty much nothing to see here” im going to stop here again and skip over the rest…

quote:

I went to university and earned the equivalent of a PhD without dissertation…


How many graduate credit hours past a masters’ degree and in what subject?

quote:

I will be happy to read your weak-ass reply to the picture I presented of a corrupt and ineffectual charter school movement.


You didn’t really present anything. You copy/pasted a newspaper article that you hoped presented a “corrupt and ineffectual charter school movement” but in my view, it didn’t succeed and what’s more your newspaper article conveniently ignored charter school successes.

If you truly were a teacher, and I believe you on that, I trust you would expect better and more thorough writing from your students.

Some of the schools seemingly did shady things, some of the schools closed---that is the nature of the free market. And to you that’s an indictment on the whole system?

quote:

What a con job. For profit, private sector waste is just as rampant as public institutional waste.


You have not shown that in the least. Rent is waste? Paying management companies is waste? you've provided absolutely no comparisons or even real numbers to look at.

quote:

School choice? snark!


Right, because freedom is a bad thing…




< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/23/2016 3:25:08 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/23/2016 5:00:54 PM   
bounty44


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to add a little more to whats already been said, florida specific:

quote:

Student Achievement in Florida’s Charter Schools: Key Findings

[im leaving a lot out for space sake, and hoping the lack of context doesn't detract from the point]

The data contained in this report, based on over 3.2 million test scores, is derived
from student performance on the Florida Comprehensive Achievement Test
(FCAT 2.0) and Algebra end-of-course exams.

The report compares the percentage of students in charter schools making learning gains
against the percentage of students in traditional public schools making learning
gains, by subject, grade level and subgroup. The percentage of students making
learning gains was higher in charter schools in 76 of the 96 comparisons. The
percentage of students making learning gains was higher in traditional public
schools in 10 of the 96 comparisons.


charter school students at all levels, outperformed their public school counterparts by percentage of students achieving a desirable level on a standardized reading test. 65-60, 66-58, 63-55 for elementary, middle, and high school respectively.

the same trend appeared in ALL subgroups---whites, blacks, Hispanics, poor and students with disabilities.

in math, it was 62-59, and 61-54 for elementary and middle school.

all the subgroups were better for charter schools with the exception of elementary school white, which was essentially a tie with public schools.

charter schools outdid the public schools in science, 55-54, and 53-49, with the 11 out of 12 subgroups in the charter schools performing better.

for algebra, it was 90-91, and 59-49 for middle school and high school. 6 of the charter school subgroups performed better; 4 were the same.

the achievement gap between white and black students, and white and Hispanic students, in reading, math and science was markedly lower in the charter school students at both the elementary and middle school levels. (no high school data)

it was lower in 3 out of the 4 instances in algebra. the 4th instance was no difference.

the percent of students making gains in reading is higher in charter schools and in 42 of the 48 sub group/school level categories.

in math, the numbers go back and forth between the schools depending on level and subgroup with a slight lean of charter over public.

these are final proficiency data for charter school and public school:

Reading Elem 65.1 59.6 Mid 66.1 57.9 High 62.5 54.7
Mathematics Elem 61.6 58.9 Mid 60.7 53.7
Science Elem 55.2 54.2 Mid 53.0 48.5
Algebra Mid 90.4 91.3 High 59.0 44.8

theres bunches more, but hopefully you get the idea...sure looks pretty "effectual" to me...

https://www.floridaschoolchoice.org/PDF/Charter_Student_Achievement_2013.pdf

I also note there are over 500 charter schools in florida. just how many of them are corrupt?

and given the success shown by the data above, exactly how is it again they are scams?

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/23/2016 5:17:12 PM >

(in reply to bounty44)
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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/23/2016 6:37:14 PM   
bounty44


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i was taking some offense at the "cashing in on kids" moniker associated with the title of the florida newspaper article.

a quick search showed there's actually an organization created by, get this, the American Federation of Teachers Union and a group called “in the public interest” which is “a comprehensive resource center on privatization and responsible contracting stated.” It takes just a quick minute to look at their website to see they are a pro-government/anti private sector alternative group.

Academica, the charter school management company mentioned in the florida article, is one of the national management groups under their scrutiny.

http://cashinginonkids.com/about/
http://www.inthepublicinterest.org/

im not a conspiracy theorist but im left wondering at the seeming "coincidental" overlap between both the phrase "cashing in on kids" and the presence of academica.

that said, it turns out the newspaper article is a variant of another that the authors wrote in which, they included at least one thing exculpatory to the criticisms leveled at charter schools in the newspaper article. This part speaks to the “for profit managers” that the newspaper article mentioned in a condemnatory way:

quote:

Hackett says the schools now operate without any for-profit managers; instead, the principals make all financial and educational decisions. “Overall, it’s cheaper and more efficient and more accountable,” she said.


theres more. they opened the newspaper article with this...

quote:

Preparing for her daughter’s graduation in the spring, Tuli Chediak received a blunt message from her daughter’s charter high school: Pay us $600 or your daughter won’t graduate. [school bad!]


making it seem like the school was charging this outrageous fee just to graduate. it turns out the parents of the girl failed to do 120 hours of the school required volunteer work, which is presumably, one way for the school to make ends meet. the mother complained, the school acquiesced and relegated it to a miscommunication. [school not so bad anymore]

they also said this, which was not in the newspaper article:

quote:

Charter schools first took hold in Florida in 1996, amid worries of overcrowded classrooms and poor student performance in urban school districts. They were seen as a cure for many of the problems in public schools, bringing innovative techniques and smaller classes to populations of students struggling to keep up. Charter schools were also designed to give parents more choices, and bring the principles of the marketplace to public education. Competition from charter schools was expected to force public schools to adapt and improve.

In many ways, the plan succeeded. Florida now has 519 charter schools — from small, specialized schools tucked in strip malls and churches to sprawling new campuses with 3,000 kids from kindergarten to 12th grade.

Some charter schools rank among the highest in the state in academic performance. School districts in Miami-Dade, Broward and around the state have responded to the competition by creating more magnet schools and specialized programs.


http://www.ivbe.org/floridacharter.htm

what's more:

quote:

In recent years, charter management organizations, which are non-profit, are growing faster than the education management organizations, which are for-profit.


that was not mentioned in their reporting.

https://marketbrief.edweek.org/marketplace-k-12/aft_nonprofit_launch_cashing_in_on_kids_website_spur_controversy/


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/23/2016 7:37:26 PM >

(in reply to bounty44)
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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/23/2016 7:43:13 PM   
bounty44


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sorry---I made a mistake above and ran out of editing time. the part about the successes of charters schools in general was indeed in the newspaper article.

(in reply to bounty44)
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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/23/2016 7:54:48 PM   
DominantWrestler


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Charter schools are allowed definition by a theme. Many choose high educational standards for exceptional students. Basically, selectively choosing those statistically likely to perform highly. Big surprise, schools with smarter students have higher test scores. However, I am in support of them as an alternative to keep public schools competitive, but come on, they are not the end all be all.

< Message edited by DominantWrestler -- 1/23/2016 8:00:42 PM >

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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 4:49:44 AM   
bounty44


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no---charter schools are "public" schools who are open to everyone. the schools don't cherry pick the smarter kids from the district.

but to address your "themes" point---some indeed have themes, some don't. unless you can supply the ratio, your point doesn't carry a lot of weight. also, you have to make the argument that themed schools necessarily attract more successful students as opposed to just students interested in that theme. the point being, average and below average students can still like science, theater, or business or whatever.

and even then, if you read my posts carefully you'll see that charter schools outperformed their public school counterparts consistently in all subgroups across all levels. youre going to suggest then that charter schools actively choose only the smarter blacks, the smarter Hispanics, the smarter poor and the smarter disabled students at the elementary level? and then they did the same at the middle school level? and then they did the same at the high school level? and that they actually did this all across the state in 500 plus schools (or at least in enough schools to sway the data their way)?

do you see the absurdity of that assertion?

the data also show about the % of students "making gains" is better in charters; that means students across all grade categories. unless you want to argue that the charter schools are so full of exceptional students that they can pull along the non-achievers to the point where the data looks good?

while im here, some more data from the report:

"Like traditional public schools, charter schools are assigned a performance grade"

2012-13 School Grades for Charter and Traditional Schools
Charter Traditional
Grade % Graded
A 42% 31%
B 20% 27%
C 21% 27%
D 10% 12%
F 7% 3%

so charters have significantly more schools with an A grade, and a slight edge, 62-58 in the above average and above category.

no one's really been claiming charter schools are the end all be all. we've been saying that generally speaking, they educate kids as well, and better, for less money and without the nonsense involved with public unions.

the real question here at the base of it all for people who oppose charter schools is, how is it that the free market produces excellent products for the least cost when it comes to so many aspects of our life, but for some mysterious reason, cannot be expected to do so when it comes to education?

some interesting stuff here:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=1000-1099/1002/Sections/1002.33.html


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/24/2016 5:19:33 AM >

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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 9:58:34 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

sounds like a bad business transaction/relationship to me and if the school ends up being dissatisfied with the management company’s performance, then that company wont be hired back.
Unless of course the 'school' is up to their ass in debt to the landlord and the management company. Did you miss the part where it takes about four years of recruiting students and some inept teachers before they can thread the economic waters? I think you did.

(in reply to bounty44)
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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 10:33:31 AM   
bounty44


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I suspect I "missed" a few things but as I pointed out above, over and over and over I found the weight of the points in the article to be either too light, or not relevant, so at some point, expecting more of the same, I stopped.

at the same time, i don't feel all that obliged to examine everything with a microscope when you more or less (seemingly) indiscriminately pasted an entire article you hoped would do the trick without really ascertaining if it indeed would.

that said---some schools were in debt, and perhaps mismanaged money or engaged in bad business practices. again, so what? that's the nature of business. eventually, as it is a business, they will get better at that end of it. interesting that you even point that out as public schools have virtually no incentive to be careful with money.

and in terms of "four years of recruiting students and some inept teachers..." again, even if its true (and one cant tell given the depth of the reporting in the article), so what? "inept teachers" don't get hired at public schools? the difference being with charter schools is they and the parents ultimately have more say over teacher retention than their union based counterparts. so again, youre actually preaching to your own doom there so to speak.




< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/24/2016 10:45:42 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 12:37:21 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

But, what did you mean by "an impoverished environment?"
One conflicted by gang bangers maybe, an environ of rampant drug and alcohol use, more tenants than owners, no available jobs within reach, high rate of vandalism, roaches, lack of adequate nutrition, lack of medical care, an abundance of family abuse, lack of books in the home, affectionately absent parents. But surely, you knew all that.

Why do some children in an affluent neighborhood fail? You never know what is really going on in the house next door, do you?

Why does one child in a family of successful children fail to measure up academically? Distracted from sibling rivalry maybe, or chooses some other course of success: music, the arts, drug addiction.

quote:

How are you going to address the home environment? How are you going to address the parent(s) being supportive of academic achievement?
That's a societal problem isn't it? You can't ask the schools to solve all of society's problems, although we readily blame the schools. Maybe it is a racial problem. Black children are more often expelled from preschool! Jeez. When are we going to solve the wealth disparity in this nation? When are we going to extinguish systematic racism and give everyone equal opportunities?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/24/2016 1:37:18 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 12:42:24 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

and in terms of "four years of recruiting students and some inept teachers..." again, even if its true (and one cant tell given the depth of the reporting in the article), so what? "inept teachers" don't get hired at public schools? the difference being with charter schools is they and the parents ultimately have more say over teacher retention than their union based counterparts. so again, youre actually preaching to your own doom there so to speak.
They do. That's why public school teachers undergo a five year probationary period. And what makes you think excellent teachers would go to work for charter piss-ant wages? Don't be foolish.

The parents judge the skill of charter school teachers? By what criteria? The only leverage the parents have is to threaten to withdraw their kids . . . and , , , , and . . . re-enroll them in those nasty public schools.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/24/2016 12:50:55 PM >

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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 12:48:03 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Sorry, when someone says “often” and then doesn’t provide numbers. There’s nothing to critique. As far as the loans, on the surface that sounds shady, but without actual dollars, or hearing the case from the other side, hard to judge.
Dollar numbers and conflict of interest relationships were detailed in the article. Did you go to a charter school? Read, man, read. Did you expect the Herald to do an investigation of all 500 charter schools?

(in reply to bounty44)
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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 1:34:08 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

News flash. Charter schools aren't part of the school district. Why in hell should school districts have ANY say to demand ANYTHING.
Every kid enrolled in a charter school sucks money away from the public schools. That's why.

quote:

So what. News flash. We the parents can fix a problem at a charter school. Whereas public shools just continue failing.
Bullshit. The only leverage charter school parents have is to threaten to withdraw their kids and re-enroll them in the public schools.

quote:

Bottom line; Government has the power to compel. Any time a private industry has the ability to deliver a good or service at the same cost or less, while maintaining public policy goals, it should be done privately.

Because private industry is a lot easier to fix than the government.

Just the opposite: government is a lot easier to fix with bribes from private industry. The private industry/elected-official collusion is the greatest source of corruption in our nation by a far margin. Nothing else even come close. You are blinded by your free market ideology. for the public good jobs were shipped overseas to slave wage workers and American consumers reaped junk products. American industry only survives by taking advantage of poverty in Asia and Mexico. Ayn Rand must have been a good fuck. Her ideas suck.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 1:43:48 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

and in terms of "four years of recruiting students and some inept teachers..." again, even if its true (and one cant tell given the depth of the reporting in the article), so what? "inept teachers" don't get hired at public schools? the difference being with charter schools is they and the parents ultimately have more say over teacher retention than their union based counterparts. so again, youre actually preaching to your own doom there so to speak.
They do. That's why public school teachers undergo a five year probationary period. And what makes you think excellent teachers would go to work for charter piss-ant wages? Don't be foolish.

The parents judge the skill of charter school teachers? By what criteria? The only leverage the parents have is to threaten to withdraw their kids . . . and , , , , and . . . re-enroll them in those nasty public schools.


so what public school teachers have a probationary period? that can actually mean an "inept" teacher can work for five years before the school finally lets 'em go. and that speaks to nothing of being "inept" after the five year period where its nearly impossible to do so.

gee I don't know---maybe because they don't want to work in a public school? or join a union? or have more autonomy? or because there's a glut of people with education degrees and they are willing to teach because they care about students and not as much about the dollars??

I didn't say the parents "judge the skill", I suggested parents have more influence as to teacher's retention.

you do know this all beside the point of charter schools educating kids the same, or better, for less expense--you are picking at straws.



(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 1:48:36 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Sorry, when someone says “often” and then doesn’t provide numbers. There’s nothing to critique. As far as the loans, on the surface that sounds shady, but without actual dollars, or hearing the case from the other side, hard to judge.
Dollar numbers and conflict of interest relationships were detailed in the article. Did you go to a charter school? Read, man, read. Did you expect the Herald to do an investigation of all 500 charter schools?


no I didn't go to a charter school.

no---the authors mentioned the possibility of conflicts of interest, but pretty much expounded on nothing in terms of it. and no, no real dollar numbers were "detailed" either. the authors spoke in broad generalities.

and yes, if someone's going to condemn charter schools as a whole, I expect them to examine them as a whole. not cherry pick instances that make them look bad.

and again, im going to point out, none your nitpicking here counters the main point of equal to better education for less dollars.






(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 1:57:03 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

News flash. Charter schools aren't part of the school district. Why in hell should school districts have ANY say to demand ANYTHING.
Every kid enrolled in a charter school sucks money away from the public schools. That's why.

quote:

So what. News flash. We the parents can fix a problem at a charter school. Whereas public shools just continue failing.
Bullshit. The only leverage charter school parents have is to threaten to withdraw their kids and re-enroll them in the public schools.

quote:

Bottom line; Government has the power to compel. Any time a private industry has the ability to deliver a good or service at the same cost or less, while maintaining public policy goals, it should be done privately.

Because private industry is a lot easier to fix than the government.

Just the opposite: government is a lot easier to fix with bribes from private industry. The private industry/elected-official collusion is the greatest source of corruption in our nation by a far margin. Nothing else even come close. You are blinded by your free market ideology. for the public good jobs were shipped overseas to slave wage workers and American consumers reaped junk products. American industry only survives by taking advantage of poverty in Asia and Mexico. Ayn Rand must have been a good fuck. Her ideas suck.


im incredulous---every kid at a charter school sucks money away from the public schools? THATS THE IDEA! competition in the marketplace of education. if the schools want those students, then they need to compete for them by raising the quality of their product or reducing expenses.

and your "bullshit" charge---yeah, since the schools need the kids in order to stay open, threatening to and actually withdrawing the kids is leverage enough. at the same time from what im reading, charter schools are more open to parental involvement and influence.

im sorry---your position is government is easier to fix than is private industry? right---and by what legitimate mechanism does that actually occur and when has it ever? the whole idea of the free market is the consumer helps to shape the private industry for the better through the consumption of their product. government has no such incentive.

anyway---i'll say it again for the 3rd or 4th time---none of this speaks to equal or better education for less dollars.

the short of it is, and I said this in one of my long posts. how is it the marketplace can produce superior products for less dollars but somehow mysteriously cannot do so in education?



< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/24/2016 2:24:02 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 1:57:03 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

so what public school teachers have a probationary period? that can actually mean an "inept" teacher can work for five years before the school finally lets 'em go. and that speaks to nothing of being "inept" after the five year period where its nearly impossible to do so.

gee I don't know---maybe because they don't want to work in a public school? or join a union? or have more autonomy? or because there's a glut of people with education degrees and they are willing to teach because they care about students and not as much about the dollars??

I didn't say the parents "judge the skill", I suggested parents have more influence as to teacher's retention.

you do know this all beside the point of charter schools educating kids the same, or better, for less expense--you are picking at straws.



Please hide your ignorance. They can be let go anytime during the probationary period. Public school teachers are not required to join a union or pay any dues in Florida.

Why are teachers the only people expected to work for the sake of altruism?

So, parents would bring influence to fire a teacher regardless of skill? On what basis? Do tell.

I'll repeat: the public school movement is a scam, just like the privatization of any public service. Hey, we have practically privatized the Army and look what a fuck up those independent contractors made in Iraq and Afawfulstan.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/24/2016 1:58:39 PM >

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 1:58:37 PM   
bounty44


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as you keep ignoring the main point, feel the need to be insulting, not to mention misunderstanding my smaller point while you are doing it, and apparently don't know the definition of "scam"---im thinking im pretty much done with this conversation.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/24/2016 1:59:23 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 2:00:25 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

as you keep ignoring the main point, and apparently don't know the definition of "scam"---im thinking im pretty much done with this conversation.

good.

(in reply to bounty44)
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RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/24/2016 2:04:37 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
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quote:

im sorry---your position is government is easier to fix than is private industry? right---and by what legitimate mechanism does that actually occur and when has it ever? the whole idea of the free market is the consumer helps to shape the private industry for the better through the consumption of their product. government has no such incentive.
It is an on-going process. If not bags of cash then promises of jobs when their public term is over. You deny that corruption is rampant between the private sector and elected officials or appointed regulators?

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association - 1/25/2016 6:45:50 AM   
DominantWrestler


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Joined: 7/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

no---charter schools are "public" schools who are open to everyone. the schools don't cherry pick the smarter kids from the district.


Never heard of gifted magnet or charter school? Did you not know that there are hundreds of thousands of children waiting to be let into these schools? Stop spreading propaganda because you don't check opinions contrary to you own

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 120
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