RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association

RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 7:17:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 "cite please?"---don't you get tired of asking that and having people tell you "do your own looking?" and then also insinuating youre a lazy troll to boot. Actually, if you're making a claim, it's on you to support that claim. By the same token, if you question a claim, it's not on you to prove someone else's claim. If it's a "common knowledge" claim, then, the requester of the cite can go pound sand.

bounty44 -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 7:22:12 AM)
yep, im quite aware of that, ive spoken to others on the same principal. so in this case, its my contention that its common knowledge that charter schools are succeeding. on a finer point though--we make claims all the time and in the midst of many of our casual conversations, we don't ask for "cites" or "documentation"---we have the relative good graces to trust the speaker. expecting otherwise, is to be burdensome to talking. in academia the general principle is, when in doubt, cite; but we are not that here. so I will ask for them when someones claim is outrageous or I clearly have knowledge to the contrary. otherwise, i'll give the speaker the benefit of the doubt and have the good manners to look myself if im really that interested or doubtful.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 7:28:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler From a strict right wing economic numerical analysis, by having teacher unions, negotiating power of employees increases. By increasing wages, you increase quality of the workers seeking a position. Therefore unions increase wages which increase competence. It's the general wage to merit correlation that is the basis of what people falsely call American capitalism Except, they don't. That's the problem with the current tenure-based system. As long as you're good enough to not get fired, you're going to have a job, and your raises will come as long as you continue to be good enough (or don't do something really fucking stupid) to not get fired. Dealing with teacher unions means you can expect an applicant of a certain quality level. I think State laws determine the requirements for a person to be a teacher, and the unions will make sure it doesn't allow members that don't meet those requirements (if a teachers' union represents non-teachers [ie. custodians, office staff, etc.], those members will likely be required to only meet the requirements of those positions). However, membership in a teachers' union only guarantees the members at least meet the lowest standard. It's not a guarantee of quality, expertise, etc. My point was that because alternate fields pay more, more capable people will seek other employment, like tutoring and teaching post secondary if not deviate to other fields completely Salaries should be based on the ease/difficulty of finding qualified applicants. There is zero reason why a shoveler should get a higher wage than an astrophysicist. The pools from which applicants can come are much different. Wages, also, should reflect the need to attract the required talent. Raising wages without raising the standard necessary might attract better talent, but if the bar isn't set high enough, you're going to attract more people who just barely meet the standard. Before the crash, when unemployment was under 5%, my local fast food joints were offering $10/hr. starting out. They were having difficulty finding applicants to fill their positions. Unless there is a large shortage of teachers, wages shouldn't rise simply to attract a greater number of qualified applicants.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 7:57:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Perhaps you missed the part where I stated: "Negotiating higher wages, classroom sizes, medical co-pays, etc. isn't exactly asking government to correct a wrong." Asking government to correct a wrong, is the whole "petition government for the redress of grievances" part. If you're negotiating for higher wages, that means you had negotiated for those previous wages, making them NOT a wrong. Negotiations occur at the expiration of a previous contract which is no longer in force. Old salaries no longer exist, hence a grievance exists. Oh, please. Negotiations happen prior to the previous contract's expiration, unless the negotiations go poorly and extend beyond the previous contract. Imagine how many teachers could get fired if the CBA is no longer in effect, which could also prevent them from being rehired under the new CBA. No way the Unions are going to risk that. That would be shitty representation, at the very least. quote: quote: If a teacher's union is negotiating with the Superintendent, etc. of TPS, that does not fall under the First Amendment because they are not petitioning government. And, public union (not just teacher unions) negotiations with government are not for "redress of grievances." Similar to rights to freedom of expression, public school teachers enjoy rights to freedom of association, based on the First Amendment's provision that grants citizens the right to peaceful assembly. These rights generally permit public school teachers to join professional, labor, or similar organizations; run for public office; and similar forms of association. However, teachers may be required to ensure that participation in these activities is completely independent from their responsibilities to the school. That means jack shit. The TPS teachers aren't negotiating with government, thus, their situation doesn't meet the reasons of the 1st Amendment. quote: quote: If Florida has passed state laws saying that teachers and other public employees have the right to negotiate for A, B, C, etc., then that's great. But, understand that's not a Constitutional right, and law can be passed negating it. Don't believe me? Ask Scott Walker. Florida's Collective Bargaining Law takes account of financial emergencies. Public Employee Unions still exist in Wisconsin with curtailed powers. Yes, they exist with curtailed powers. That was my point. The laws that grant those powers can be changed, removing those powers. In the case of WI, it wasn't all. quote: You don't contest the effect of impoverished family environments on the development of cognitive abilities in very young children then? You've now moved from low socioeconomic status to "impoverished family environments." I maintain that academics supporting home environments are more important to student success than how much money that home brings in. You can have poor home environments without that home being impoverished, and the academic results will tend to reflect that. Are you going to pass a law that demands families set up home environments that are supportive of academic success? Do you have to have highly developed cognitive abilities to get good paying jobs? My Dad's mother didn't attend school past 6th grade. She started working to support the family (sounds a bit impoverished, no?). I have no idea how much education my Dad's father had, but he busted his ass in a Youngstown, Ohio steel mill. My Dad and his sister have college degrees. His brother went into the military instead, and has made quite a comfortable life for himself and his family. Of my 6 cousins, I know 5 have college degrees. I'm not sure about the other one. Of those 5, one has a Ph.D, and 2 have Master's degrees (all 3 of them are kids of my uncle who didn't have a college education). My Dad's 4 kids all have college degrees, and one has a Master's Degree. Academics were stressed to my Dad, aunt and uncle. Academics were stressed to their children. You have a son and daughter of immigrants (at least one of whom only had a 6th grade education) who somehow managed to raise 3 kids who all graduated HS, two of home have college degrees (at least one with an advanced degree), who have raised 10 kids, and at least 9 have college degrees, 4 with advanced degrees, and one with a doctorate. It has to start in the home. The parent(s) has to be supportive of academic success. How do we legislate that sort of thing?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 8:27:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: But, what did you mean by "an impoverished environment?" One conflicted by gang bangers maybe, an environ of rampant drug and alcohol use, more tenants than owners, no available jobs within reach, high rate of vandalism, roaches, lack of adequate nutrition, lack of medical care, an abundance of family abuse, lack of books in the home, affectionately absent parents. But surely, you knew all that. No, I didn't know that was what you were referring to, thus the question. I have zero problem with your definition, either. I'm glad we can agree on that. I understand that not all families have the financial ability to move out of an area. An environment of rampant drug and alcohol abuse are choices made by the parent(s). Help is available for that. Lack of adequate nutrition? Parent's responsibility. Lack of medical care? Parent's responsibility. Family abuse? That's obviously a choice being made by a parent. A parent's responsibility. Affectionately absent parent(s)? That's also a parent's responsibility. quote: Why do some children in an affluent neighborhood fail? You never know what is really going on in the house next door, do you? Why does one child in a family of successful children fail to measure up academically? Distracted from sibling rivalry maybe, or chooses some other course of success: music, the arts, drug addiction. Poor home environments aren't limited to those of lower socioeconomic status. Does help show that it's not the school district, teachers, etc. that are responsible. quote: quote: How are you going to address the home environment? How are you going to address the parent(s) being supportive of academic achievement? That's a societal problem isn't it? You can't ask the schools to solve all of society's problems, although we readily blame the schools. "We?" Maybe you do, but I sure as hell don't. Here's how I look at teacher pay: teachers get paid enough to educate, but not enough for all the other demands placed on them. Remove all the other things teachers are required to be for their students, and teacher pay is really good pay. All the extra roles schools are demanded to play cause schools to spend a lot more money. Toledo Public spends more than twice as much as Anthony Wayne, yet outcomes aren't even close. The increased spend is due, in large part, to the non-education requirements (free breakfasts, free/reduced lunches, etc.). It should not be the responsibility of a school district to make sure students have adequate nutrition. No, it's not the schools or the teachers, in general, that are the problems. quote: Maybe it is a racial problem. Black children are more often expelled from preschool! Jeez. That's a racially discriminatory comment in and of itself. Are the kids being expelled because of their skin color, or behavior? quote: When are we going to solve the wealth disparity in this nation? When are we going to extinguish systematic racism and give everyone equal opportunities? There is no need to solve the wealth disparity. You want more? Do what it takes to legally earn more. Where is systematic racism? We can't wipe out all racism in one fell swoop (though I wish it were that easy). We can only address it when it pops up. We can't erase it by putting it in place (Affirmative Action).

DesideriScuri -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 8:35:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 no---charter schools are "public" schools who are open to everyone. the schools don't cherry pick the smarter kids from the district. Never heard of gifted magnet or charter school? Did you not know that there are hundreds of thousands of children waiting to be let into these schools? Stop spreading propaganda because you don't check opinions contrary to you own Why are there waiting lists? Perhaps because there are only so many spots available because of building size, number of teachers, etc.? Parents have to put their kids on a waiting list. Why would a parent put a kid on their waiting list? Perhaps because they believe their kids will get a better education? Perhaps if the public schools were doing a better job, there would be less of a flight to charter schools?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 8:41:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 in academia the general principle is, when in doubt, cite; but we are not that here. so I will ask for them when someones claim is outrageous or I clearly have knowledge to the contrary. otherwise, i'll give the speaker the benefit of the doubt and have the good manners to look myself if im really that interested or doubtful. Well, we agree on this stuff, but expecting "good manners" from others isn't going to happen as much as we'd like, and what someone else deems "outrageous" you might deem "common knowledge."

Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 9:00:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: and in terms of "four years of recruiting students and some inept teachers..." again, even if its true (and one cant tell given the depth of the reporting in the article), so what? "inept teachers" don't get hired at public schools? the difference being with charter schools is they and the parents ultimately have more say over teacher retention than their union based counterparts. so again, youre actually preaching to your own doom there so to speak. They do. That's why public school teachers undergo a five year probationary period. And what makes you think excellent teachers would go to work for charter piss-ant wages? Don't be foolish. The parents judge the skill of charter school teachers? By what criteria? The only leverage the parents have is to threaten to withdraw their kids . . . and , , , , and . . . re-enroll them in those nasty public schools. [:D] Boy you really are an arrogant prick. A lot of quite competent teachers are fed up with inner city public schools, where their safety is threatened and classroom disruption is the norm. A lot of quite good teachers were let go when chicago closed 50 schools; or as in florida when the teacher of the year was let go due to non-seniority. A lot of teachers prefer a religious environment; or prefer to work in prep environment yet there are no openings in a public schools. A lot of teachers don't want to subisidize a union that speaks against their values. There are more than 90 million people that are not working currently. Many of them teachers or specialties that could be used in a classroom. One of the huge reforms that so empowered florida is it allowed subject matter experts - such as bankers, engineers, doctors to teach without at teaching certificate, in their area of expertise, and to get accredited in that area easily. But the bottom line, again to me is simply results. Charter schools at EVERY grade level, in florida, getting better results than public schools. At 68% of the cost. As for leverage - most people leaving a charter school will go to another charter school, or homeschooling. They will not return to the failing public school that got them there in the first place.

Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 9:17:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Bottom line; Government has the power to compel. Any time a private industry has the ability to deliver a good or service at the same cost or less, while maintaining public policy goals, it should be done privately. Because private industry is a lot easier to fix than the government. Just the opposite: government is a lot easier to fix with bribes from private industry. The private industry/elected-official collusion is the greatest source of corruption in our nation by a far margin. Nothing else even come close. You are blinded by your free market ideology. for the public good jobs were shipped overseas to slave wage workers and American consumers reaped junk products. American industry only survives by taking advantage of poverty in Asia and Mexico. Ayn Rand must have been a good fuck. Her ideas suck. Thus demonstrating the problem with leftists everywhere. There's an old joke - what did socialists (such as yourself) do for light before candles? A: Lightbulbs. Socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried. Which shouldn't be surprising. Sooner or later, market forces win out. Your vehemence against private endeavors betrays a lack of historical knowledge and a lack of understanding on how the world works. Regarding private industy/elected official corruption: I don't suppose you have any cites to back up your gospel? Please, no occupy wall street cites, or media matter quotes. Back to the topic: Public schools in florida have sucked for a very long time. Bottom 10 for more than twenty years. Once we got fed up enough and let private industry in - it got better - and fast. Don't get me wrong - Carvalho is making huge improvements - getting mdcps to top 8 is huge. Simultaneously cutting 2 billion from the budget. But that fact that he could cut 2billion without firing a teacher - says that there was a huge amount of waste and bloat. That said - he still hasn't made a competitive product.

Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 10:32:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And, Scandinavia. Your lack of any factual knowledge betrays a lack of intellect on the actual world... Once again your "knowledge" is myth and out of date. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/jun/16/20070616-080932-5740r/?page=all http://nypost.com/2015/10/19/sorry-bernie-scandinavia-is-no-socialist-paradise-after-all/ http://reason.com/blog/2012/06/08/sweden-not-a-socialist-standard-bearer-a http://www.nationalreview.com/article/248263/swedens-quiet-revolution-duncan-currie http://patriotupdate.com/sweden-leads-way-dumping-socialism/ Here, let me quote a bit Since the early 1990s, when it suffered a painful financial crisis, the Scandinavian country has deregulated key industries (such as airlines, telecommunications, and electricity), lowered its overall tax burden, established universal school vouchers, partially privatized its pension system, abolished certain government monopolies, sold a number of state-owned enterprises (including the parent company of Absolut vodka), and trimmed public spending. Several years ago, it eliminated gift and inheritance taxes. The World Economic Forum now ranks Sweden as the second-most competitive economy on earth, behind only Switzerland. According to the 2010 Index of Economic Freedom (compiled by the Wall Street Journal and the Heritage Foundation), Sweden offers greater business freedom, trade freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and property-rights protection than does the United States.

DominantWrestler -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 11:17:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler From a strict right wing economic numerical analysis, by having teacher unions, negotiating power of employees increases. By increasing wages, you increase quality of the workers seeking a position. Therefore unions increase wages which increase competence. It's the general wage to merit correlation that is the basis of what people falsely call American capitalism Except, they don't. That's the problem with the current tenure-based system. As long as you're good enough to not get fired, you're going to have a job, and your raises will come as long as you continue to be good enough (or don't do something really fucking stupid) to not get fired. Dealing with teacher unions means you can expect an applicant of a certain quality level. I think State laws determine the requirements for a person to be a teacher, and the unions will make sure it doesn't allow members that don't meet those requirements (if a teachers' union represents non-teachers [ie. custodians, office staff, etc.], those members will likely be required to only meet the requirements of those positions). However, membership in a teachers' union only guarantees the members at least meet the lowest standard. It's not a guarantee of quality, expertise, etc. My point was that because alternate fields pay more, more capable people will seek other employment, like tutoring and teaching post secondary if not deviate to other fields completely Salaries should be based on the ease/difficulty of finding qualified applicants. There is zero reason why a shoveler should get a higher wage than an astrophysicist. The pools from which applicants can come are much different. Wages, also, should reflect the need to attract the required talent. Raising wages without raising the standard necessary might attract better talent, but if the bar isn't set high enough, you're going to attract more people who just barely meet the standard. Before the crash, when unemployment was under 5%, my local fast food joints were offering $10/hr. starting out. They were having difficulty finding applicants to fill their positions. Unless there is a large shortage of teachers, wages shouldn't rise simply to attract a greater number of qualified applicants. If there is only a set number of jobs and the quality of your application pool increases and you try to take the most qualified, you will most likely yield a better set of employees

mnottertail -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 11:41:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And, Scandinavia. Your lack of any factual knowledge betrays a lack of intellect on the actual world... Once again your "knowledge" is myth and out of date. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/jun/16/20070616-080932-5740r/?page=all http://nypost.com/2015/10/19/sorry-bernie-scandinavia-is-no-socialist-paradise-after-all/ http://reason.com/blog/2012/06/08/sweden-not-a-socialist-standard-bearer-a http://www.nationalreview.com/article/248263/swedens-quiet-revolution-duncan-currie http://patriotupdate.com/sweden-leads-way-dumping-socialism/ Here, let me quote a bit Since the early 1990s, when it suffered a painful financial crisis, the Scandinavian country has deregulated key industries (such as airlines, telecommunications, and electricity), lowered its overall tax burden, established universal school vouchers, partially privatized its pension system, abolished certain government monopolies, sold a number of state-owned enterprises (including the parent company of Absolut vodka), and trimmed public spending. Several years ago, it eliminated gift and inheritance taxes. The World Economic Forum now ranks Sweden as the second-most competitive economy on earth, behind only Switzerland. According to the 2010 Index of Economic Freedom (compiled by the Wall Street Journal and the Heritage Foundation), Sweden offers greater business freedom, trade freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and property-rights protection than does the United States. Why quote Sun Myung Moon and the most disreputable nutsucker slobber blogs on earth? And its too bad too, because National Review used to be factual even if it held a different view, I am sure Buckley is turning over in his grave. The NYPost doesnt contain as much fact as the dailymail, or the national enquirer. So, you got cockgargling, and nutsucker slobber blogs, no actual fact, which is very apparent in the world around us. Scandinavia, working. Try to not nutsucker so hard, you look like a goddamn buffoon.

DominantWrestler -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 11:42:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And, Scandinavia. Your lack of any factual knowledge betrays a lack of intellect on the actual world... Once again your "knowledge" is myth and out of date. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/jun/16/20070616-080932-5740r/?page=all http://nypost.com/2015/10/19/sorry-bernie-scandinavia-is-no-socialist-paradise-after-all/ http://reason.com/blog/2012/06/08/sweden-not-a-socialist-standard-bearer-a http://www.nationalreview.com/article/248263/swedens-quiet-revolution-duncan-currie http://patriotupdate.com/sweden-leads-way-dumping-socialism/ Here, let me quote a bit Since the early 1990s, when it suffered a painful financial crisis, the Scandinavian country has deregulated key industries (such as airlines, telecommunications, and electricity), lowered its overall tax burden, established universal school vouchers, partially privatized its pension system, abolished certain government monopolies, sold a number of state-owned enterprises (including the parent company of Absolut vodka), and trimmed public spending. Several years ago, it eliminated gift and inheritance taxes. The World Economic Forum now ranks Sweden as the second-most competitive economy on earth, behind only Switzerland. According to the 2010 Index of Economic Freedom (compiled by the Wall Street Journal and the Heritage Foundation), Sweden offers greater business freedom, trade freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and property-rights protection than does the United States. Tax dodgers will go to tax havens like Johns will go to the fleshpots of the world. Doesn't mean they are moral

Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 11:48:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And, Scandinavia. Your lack of any factual knowledge betrays a lack of intellect on the actual world... Once again your "knowledge" is myth and out of date. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/jun/16/20070616-080932-5740r/?page=all http://nypost.com/2015/10/19/sorry-bernie-scandinavia-is-no-socialist-paradise-after-all/ http://reason.com/blog/2012/06/08/sweden-not-a-socialist-standard-bearer-a http://www.nationalreview.com/article/248263/swedens-quiet-revolution-duncan-currie http://patriotupdate.com/sweden-leads-way-dumping-socialism/ Here, let me quote a bit Since the early 1990s, when it suffered a painful financial crisis, the Scandinavian country has deregulated key industries (such as airlines, telecommunications, and electricity), lowered its overall tax burden, established universal school vouchers, partially privatized its pension system, abolished certain government monopolies, sold a number of state-owned enterprises (including the parent company of Absolut vodka), and trimmed public spending. Several years ago, it eliminated gift and inheritance taxes. The World Economic Forum now ranks Sweden as the second-most competitive economy on earth, behind only Switzerland. According to the 2010 Index of Economic Freedom (compiled by the Wall Street Journal and the Heritage Foundation), Sweden offers greater business freedom, trade freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and property-rights protection than does the United States. Tax dodgers will go to tax havens like Johns will go to the fleshpots of the world. Doesn't mean they are moral It also doesn't mean oppressive taxes or the governments that inflict them are moral, either. Pretty stupid comment. I may frame it. First time I've ever heard sweden, with an income tax of 56% and a VAT tax of 25% as a tax haven.

Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 11:50:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And, Scandinavia. Your lack of any factual knowledge betrays a lack of intellect on the actual world... Once again your "knowledge" is myth and out of date. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/jun/16/20070616-080932-5740r/?page=all http://nypost.com/2015/10/19/sorry-bernie-scandinavia-is-no-socialist-paradise-after-all/ http://reason.com/blog/2012/06/08/sweden-not-a-socialist-standard-bearer-a http://www.nationalreview.com/article/248263/swedens-quiet-revolution-duncan-currie http://patriotupdate.com/sweden-leads-way-dumping-socialism/ Here, let me quote a bit Since the early 1990s, when it suffered a painful financial crisis, the Scandinavian country has deregulated key industries (such as airlines, telecommunications, and electricity), lowered its overall tax burden, established universal school vouchers, partially privatized its pension system, abolished certain government monopolies, sold a number of state-owned enterprises (including the parent company of Absolut vodka), and trimmed public spending. Several years ago, it eliminated gift and inheritance taxes. The World Economic Forum now ranks Sweden as the second-most competitive economy on earth, behind only Switzerland. According to the 2010 Index of Economic Freedom (compiled by the Wall Street Journal and the Heritage Foundation), Sweden offers greater business freedom, trade freedom, monetary freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, freedom from corruption, and property-rights protection than does the United States. Why quote Sun Myung Moon and the most disreputable nutsucker slobber blogs on earth? And its too bad too, because National Review used to be factual even if it held a different view, I am sure Buckley is turning over in his grave. The NYPost doesnt contain as much fact as the dailymail, or the national enquirer. So, you got cockgargling, and nutsucker slobber blogs, no actual fact, which is very apparent in the world around us. Scandinavia, working. Try to not nutsucker so hard, you look like a goddamn buffoon. LOL - the more you bitch and moan and avoid posting any factual data, the better I like it. Your side can't argue facts so all you're left with is bitter personal attacks. Loser.

mnottertail -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 11:52:58 AM)
where is your factual data? deregulation has nothing to do with anything. you dont understand socialism, economics, and in fact anything you post on, you just copy out of slobbering nutsucker blogs. you and your couple buddies masturbate each other, but thats all that happens.

Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 11:54:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail where is your factual data? deregulation has nothing to do with anything. you dont understand socialism, economics, and in fact anything you post on, you just copy out of slobbering nutsucker blogs. you and your couple buddies masturbate each other, but thats all that happens. LOL - tell you what - you try posting a few mainstream articles from the last 5 years that say sweden isn't turning away from socialism - and we'll talk. I've already done my due diligence. Put up or shut up.

mnottertail -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 12:03:10 PM)
post any mainstream factual one in the last 5 years that says it is turning away from socialism. All you have is slobbering nutsuckers spewing asswipe in non-sequiturs and strawmen. Mainstream media usually dont do articles on nothing happening. Nutsucker slobber blogs and nutsuckers shit their pants and cockgargle incessantly about nothing. The democratic socialist party has been the largest party in the Riksdag since 1917. The (parliament) is composed of several parties, like England, and the socialists are at 40-55% consistently, holding the largest share of seats in government.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 12:54:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler From a strict right wing economic numerical analysis, by having teacher unions, negotiating power of employees increases. By increasing wages, you increase quality of the workers seeking a position. Therefore unions increase wages which increase competence. It's the general wage to merit correlation that is the basis of what people falsely call American capitalism Except, they don't. That's the problem with the current tenure-based system. As long as you're good enough to not get fired, you're going to have a job, and your raises will come as long as you continue to be good enough (or don't do something really fucking stupid) to not get fired. Dealing with teacher unions means you can expect an applicant of a certain quality level. I think State laws determine the requirements for a person to be a teacher, and the unions will make sure it doesn't allow members that don't meet those requirements (if a teachers' union represents non-teachers [ie. custodians, office staff, etc.], those members will likely be required to only meet the requirements of those positions). However, membership in a teachers' union only guarantees the members at least meet the lowest standard. It's not a guarantee of quality, expertise, etc. My point was that because alternate fields pay more, more capable people will seek other employment, like tutoring and teaching post secondary if not deviate to other fields completely Salaries should be based on the ease/difficulty of finding qualified applicants. There is zero reason why a shoveler should get a higher wage than an astrophysicist. The pools from which applicants can come are much different. Wages, also, should reflect the need to attract the required talent. Raising wages without raising the standard necessary might attract better talent, but if the bar isn't set high enough, you're going to attract more people who just barely meet the standard. Before the crash, when unemployment was under 5%, my local fast food joints were offering $10/hr. starting out. They were having difficulty finding applicants to fill their positions. Unless there is a large shortage of teachers, wages shouldn't rise simply to attract a greater number of qualified applicants. If there is only a set number of jobs and the quality of your application pool increases and you try to take the most qualified, you will most likely yield a better set of employees Who wouldn't take the best of the applicants? But, you still have to get through the current composition of "tenured" teachers. The unions tend to provide more job security for those that need it most. The best teachers aren't in fear of their jobs over performance. Phydeaux keeps bringing up the "Teacher of the Year" that lost her job the next year. That wasn't because her performance was poor, or she made some terrible decision that caused her firing. She was let go because she was low woman on the totem pole. And, that's how unions work. Those at the bottom are the ones that get shafted, until there are others below them to get shafted. I've seen several people where I work (private industy, so it's not public union representation) who have amazing work ethics and attitudes for 90 days. Guess what happens after that. As soon as the get into the union, their attitudes drop and so does their work ethic and productivity. There are many union members where I work that are amazing workers, too, to be fair. What's funny is that some of the worst workers have the most years of service, and are also the biggest complainers about the "quality" of the newest hires.

mnottertail -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/25/2016 12:57:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 yep, im quite aware of that, ive spoken to others on the same principal. so in this case, its my contention that its common knowledge that charter schools are succeeding. on a finer point though--we make claims all the time and in the midst of many of our casual conversations, we don't ask for "cites" or "documentation"---we have the relative good graces to trust the speaker. expecting otherwise, is to be burdensome to talking. in academia the general principle is, when in doubt, cite; but we are not that here. so I will ask for them when someones claim is outrageous or I clearly have knowledge to the contrary. otherwise, i'll give the speaker the benefit of the doubt and have the good manners to look myself if im really that interested or doubtful. I have cited several citations where they are failing considerably. That is common knowledge.

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