RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/21/2016 2:42:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Ok. So exactly why should the tax payers pay for teachers that can't be fired, who deliver inferior results at inflated costs.
The collective bargaining agreement provides a process for the evaluation and dismissal of even tenured teachers who are not teaching effectively.

quote:

Why exactly do you think that happens? You don't think its because in the negotiations the thugs don't say "if you don't give us what we want we will make life hell for you?"
Again you display your ignorance of the bargaining process.


A. We're not talking one or two bad apples; the entire public school system is delivering results inferior to charter schools at higher costs.
Charter schools BUILD (rent) and Teach at 80% of the cost that public schools charge to just teach. Why should the tax payer pay for that?

B. If a teacher desires to drag out the firing process - it takes over two years to fire a teacher. During which time the teacher collects pay. Why should the taxpayers be in favor of that.

C. The collective bargaining agreement you are so proud of calls for younger teachers to be laid off first. So higher cost teachers are protected regardless of how well they teach. Notably about two years ago, the teacher of the year was laid off because she had low seniority.

Why should the taxpayer pay for a system that promotes average or bad teachers over good ones?

As for my putative ignorance of the collective bargaining process - first, they're not open to the public.
Second - I may not have gotten to watch the sausage being made, but I am damn well familiar with the outcome, as I have done contracting work for MDCPS; worked at a school; have students in the schools; and am an informed tax payer.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/21/2016 4:29:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

the national right to work website has tons of those stories:

Florida is a right to work state. However, the Constitution gives persons the right of lawful assembly to redress grievances. Public employees enjoy guarantees of the Bill of Rights. You don't like it, change the Constitution.

The Constitution prevents the Federal Government from removing The People's right to peaceably assemble and petition government for redress of grievances.
Union negotiations aren't exactly "peaceable assemblies" to "petition for redress of grievances." Negotiating higher wages, classroom sizes, medical co-pays, etc. isn't exactly asking government to correct a wrong.
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/petition-overview

It is your judgment that Union negotiations are not peaceable assemblies that bargaining does not address grievances. You have a lot of moxie when you have never attended a lawful bargaining secession in Miami. You are seriously mistaken. In fact the U.S. Bill of Rights was incorporated into the contract by mutual ascent.
The Florida Legislature established a law for bargaining between public employees and their government employers in around 1972. As far as I know there has never been a strike that effected the students, although I do recall maybe one or two after school picket lines around the downtown administrative building to express grievances pertaining to working conditions. The school board is an agency of government
Bargaining in Florida is mediated by the rules of PERC ~ Public Employee Relations Commission. The following is a litany of employee rights from the Commission handbook:
Rights of Public Employees
Public employees have the right to choose to participate in employee organizations
for the purposes of collective bargaining or other activities which mutually benefit two or
more employees. The following rights are some of those enjoyed by public employees:
To form, join, and participate in employee organizations.
To negotiate collectively about wages, hours, and terms and conditions
of employment.

To be represented in grievances.
To act together to help or protect each other by legal means other
than a strike.
To refuse to take any action in support of an employee organization
Following are some examples of protected activities. Employees may draft a
petition complaining about their safety or working conditions and ask other employees to
sign it. Employees may not be discharged for trying to organize a new employee
organization. They may also file grievances under a collective bargaining agreement
without being treated adversely for doing so.
An employee may request union representation
in an interview with the employer if he reasonably believes disciplinary action
may result. Employees may speak freely in trying to convince fellow employees to stop
supporting one employee organization and to support another instead.

The following is from the link you provided and I believe it supports my position.
Perhaps the right of petition has escaped their attention precisely because it continues to work so well. The petition clause is the tacit assumption in constitutional analysis, the primordial right from which other expressive freedoms arise. Why speak, why publish, why assemble against the government at all if such complaints will only be silenced?
As Justice John Paul Stevens stressed in his dissent in Minnesota Board for Community Colleges, “The First Amendment was intended to secure something more than an exercise in futility.” The petition clause ensures that our leaders hear, even if they don’t listen to, the electorate. Though public officials may be indifferent, contrary, or silent participants in democratic discourse, at least the First Amendment commands their audience.

What is it about teachers and other public employees that in your mind make us subservient citizens with second class rights?


Perhaps you missed the part where I stated: "Negotiating higher wages, classroom sizes, medical co-pays, etc. isn't exactly asking government to correct a wrong." Asking government to correct a wrong, is the whole "petition government for the redress of grievances" part. If you're negotiating for higher wages, that means you had negotiated for those previous wages, making them NOT a wrong.

If a teacher's union is negotiating with the Superintendent, etc. of TPS, that does not fall under the First Amendment because they are not petitioning government. And, public union (not just teacher unions) negotiations with government are not for "redress of grievances."

If Florida has passed state laws saying that teachers and other public employees have the right to negotiate for A, B, C, etc., then that's great. But, understand that's not a Constitutional right, and law can be passed negating it. Don't believe me? Ask Scott Walker.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/21/2016 4:41:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

I think you mean there's a direct relationship. Suburbs tend to have higher property values, and the schools tend to perform better, though I would have to add that I don't believe the relationship is causal by any stretch.
Thank you. I meant to affirm that affluent homes account for good schools and impoverished homes generate failing students. I think the history of events that lead to the impoverishment of inner cities was correct inasmuch as I experienced it. Wiki has a pretty good article on the development of impoverished inner cities in the Northeast and Midwest.
quote:

If an impoverished family won the megabajillions lottery, and was no longer impoverished, would academic success improve?

Unlikely that it would because an impoverished environment has effects on the brains of toddlers and preschool children that likely cannot be reversed, much like the lead in the waters of Flint, MI and its debilitating effects on the cognitive development of children under six years.


Let's not use the Flint water situation, as that isn't necessarily limited to only the impoverished areas of Flint, and that doesn't explain the results in Toledo, Detroit. etc.

But, what did you mean by "an impoverished environment?"

quote:

quote:

I highly doubt my family's academic performance was better than it would have been had we instead attended his school district. Students who moved from his district to mine usually didn't have much change in academic success.

Exactly correct because you would have carried your comfortable middle class childhood development with while the students who moved from the ghetto to the burbs were already irreparably damaged.
There is so much literature available about the effect of poverty on cognitive function and on academic achievement. I will link only one here. The literature is overwhelming.
Living in poverty can be a difficult task to undertake. A family in poverty will often have to go without more than other families who have more resources. Therefore, those people that grow up in poverty do not have the means to obtain certain resources, such as education(preschool, pre-k, K-12, etc.) as those who come from a family that has the resources to obtain an education among other things. Young children’s cognitive development is negatively affected by poverty; in order to solve this problem, one has to tackle the conditions that children live in by helping their entire family with education and better economic and financial resources so that children can have higher cognitive development and have the potential for better life outcomes.


But, what of those who lived in the same middle class 'burbs with me, growing up? My next door neighbors (who were more affluent) had one excellent student and one mediocre student. The Korean family a few doors down had 3 excellent students, and they were at least as well off as my family. Then, you have some other kids in our very same neighborhood that lived there as long, if not longer, than we had, whose kids were not even close to being the brightest bulbs in the box. But, there are also stories (movies, too, iirc) about inner city kids who have excelled in academics.

How are you going to address the home environment? How are you going to address the parent(s) being supportive of academic achievement?




thompsonx -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/21/2016 5:59:58 PM)


ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: servantforuse

And they educate kids with less money per student. Teachers and their unions hate these alternative schools though.

Cite please



Cite already given in previous quotes. try reading them.

I read your cite and here is what it said:

Probable Causes of the Disparities
Accountability Practices
(1) Lack of Centralized Data Collection and Monitoring
• The absence of a centralized data collection and monitoring system for charter school funding fuels a
system of poor accountability and leads to abuses, misuses, misinterpretations, and a general “falling short”
of what the law intends.

What that means in laymans terms is that you are lying again and, as usual, are full of shit.




Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/21/2016 8:41:58 PM)

Yeah, since you missed it the first time around:

Here's a national study saying in 2009, public schools got 1800 dollars more:

http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/Main-Menu/Organizing-a-school/Charter-schools-Finding-out-the-facts-At-a-glance/Charter-schools-Finding-out-the-facts.html

Here's a huffpoo article quoting studies that shows public schools getting $4400 dollars more in 2011.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/30/charter-school-funding-_n_5242159.html


Here's an NPR article saying charter schools get 70 cents on the dollar. https://stateimpact.npr.org/florida/2012/02/08/should-florida-charter-schools-receive-equal-funding/

Here's a study published in 2014 saying the difference in 2011 was $2100 http://floridacharterschools.org/news/charter_school_funding_inequity_expands/

If you want the exact funding formula - its here - but it will be over your interest level: http://floridacharterschools.org/schools/taps/Manual_for_Financial_Reporting_09.pdf
Note the formula GUARANTEES 20+% more funds for public schools.








Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/21/2016 8:46:55 PM)

And this study shows charter schools get 68-72% funding compared to public schools.

Now consider this: when's the last time you heard a charter school complain about funding. What about a public school...




thompsonx -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 4:15:09 AM)


ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Yeah, since you missed it the first time around:


The first time around I quoted from your source.

I read your cite and here is what it said:


Probable Causes of the Disparities
Accountability Practices
(1) Lack of Centralized Data Collection and Monitoring
• The absence of a centralized data collection and monitoring system for charter school funding fuels a
system of poor accountability and leads to abuses, misuses, misinterpretations, and a general “falling short”
of what the law intends.

What that means in laymans terms is that you are lying again and, as usual, are full of shit.


Here's a national study saying in 2009, public schools got 1800 dollars more:

http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/Main-Menu/Organizing-a-school/Charter-schools-Finding-out-the-facts-At-a-glance/Charter-schools-Finding-out-the-facts.html

Here's a huffpoo article quoting studies that shows public schools getting $4400 dollars more in 2011.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/30/charter-school-funding-_n_5242159.html


Here's an NPR article saying charter schools get 70 cents on the dollar. https://stateimpact.npr.org/florida/2012/02/08/should-florida-charter-schools-receive-equal-funding/

Here's a study published in 2014 saying the difference in 2011 was $2100 http://floridacharterschools.org/news/charter_school_funding_inequity_expands/

If you want the exact funding formula - its here - but it will be over your interest level: http://floridacharterschools.org/schools/taps/Manual_for_Financial_Reporting_09.pdf
Note the formula GUARANTEES 20+% more funds for public schools.



For the stated reasons in your own cite you stand corrected and an obvious liar




bounty44 -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 4:57:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: bounty44

don't know if this has been brought up yet-

Once again you post from a prestated position of ignorance...don't yu ever get tired of reaffirming your ignorance?

--and the relative success of charter schools,


Cite please...your opinions have been shown to have a value less than that of used shit paper.




all that means Einstein is I hadn't read through the prior 55 posts in order to say what I wanted to say. apparently you think its requisite before anyone posts that they read through the entire thread first?? any idea how impracticable and therefore stupid that position is? that you use that as a reason to be insulting tells me something about the quality of your character.

"cite please?"---don't you get tired of asking that and having people tell you "do your own looking?" and then also insinuating youre a lazy troll to boot.

apart from that what I posted is pretty much common knowledge even in liberal la la land, in the amount of time it took you to be insulting, you could have found the answer yourself.

are you here for any other reason than to be mean-spirited? you must be a miserable sort aren't you? I feel sorry for you...




bounty44 -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 5:06:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I read your cite and here is what it said:

Probable Causes of the Disparities
Accountability Practices
(1) Lack of Centralized Data Collection and Monitoring
• The absence of a centralized data collection and monitoring system for charter school funding fuels a
system of poor accountability and leads to abuses, misuses, misinterpretations, and a general “falling short”
of what the law intends.

What that means in laymans terms is that you are lying again and, as usual, are full of shit.




the main contention here and the evidence presented has been that charter schools outperform their public school counterparts and they do so with less expense.

the quote you pulled out speaks to the probable reasons why there is a funding disparity (and you only chose one for some indiscernible reason)---its not germane to the topic.

so what exactly is the lie?





mnottertail -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 7:13:56 AM)

http://educationopportunitynetwork.org/charter-schools-fail-new-reports-call-their-magic-into-question/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/02/opinion/more-lessons-about-charter-schools.html?_r=0
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/07/01/ohios-effort-to-reform-its-ridiculed-charter-schools-is-a-big-fail/
http://www.slate.com/blogs/schooled/2015/12/17/for_profit_charter_schools_are_failing_and_fading_here_s_why.html
http://dianeravitch.net/2015/09/05/florida-hits-a-milestone-over-300-failed-charter-schools/

A lot of failure out there as well.




DominantWrestler -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 7:15:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler
From a strict right wing economic numerical analysis, by having teacher unions, negotiating power of employees increases. By increasing wages, you increase quality of the workers seeking a position. Therefore unions increase wages which increase competence. It's the general wage to merit correlation that is the basis of what people falsely call American capitalism


Except, they don't. That's the problem with the current tenure-based system. As long as you're good enough to not get fired, you're going to have a job, and your raises will come as long as you continue to be good enough (or don't do something really fucking stupid) to not get fired.

Dealing with teacher unions means you can expect an applicant of a certain quality level. I think State laws determine the requirements for a person to be a teacher, and the unions will make sure it doesn't allow members that don't meet those requirements (if a teachers' union represents non-teachers [ie. custodians, office staff, etc.], those members will likely be required to only meet the requirements of those positions). However, membership in a teachers' union only guarantees the members at least meet the lowest standard. It's not a guarantee of quality, expertise, etc.



My point was that because alternate fields pay more, more capable people will seek other employment, like tutoring and teaching post secondary if not deviate to other fields completely




Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 10:33:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWrestler
From a strict right wing economic numerical analysis, by having teacher unions, negotiating power of employees increases. By increasing wages, you increase quality of the workers seeking a position. Therefore unions increase wages which increase competence. It's the general wage to merit correlation that is the basis of what people falsely call American capitalism


Except, they don't. That's the problem with the current tenure-based system. As long as you're good enough to not get fired, you're going to have a job, and your raises will come as long as you continue to be good enough (or don't do something really fucking stupid) to not get fired.

Dealing with teacher unions means you can expect an applicant of a certain quality level. I think State laws determine the requirements for a person to be a teacher, and the unions will make sure it doesn't allow members that don't meet those requirements (if a teachers' union represents non-teachers [ie. custodians, office staff, etc.], those members will likely be required to only meet the requirements of those positions). However, membership in a teachers' union only guarantees the members at least meet the lowest standard. It's not a guarantee of quality, expertise, etc.



My point was that because alternate fields pay more, more capable people will seek other employment, like tutoring and teaching post secondary if not deviate to other fields completely



And?

Look, like it or not money with caveats is a measure of how we value things.

Lawyers, since they put you in jail or get you out of jail - get huge bucks.
Doctors - since they extend your life, raise the quality of your life give you huge bucks.

Really good business men, who can make a lot of money for their investors, hence raising the quality of their life - get big bucks.

Thats the advantage of capitalism - money flows freely to the things that matter to people, and away from things that don't. Misallocation of capital which endemically occurs in democrat land aka socialism aka venezuela aka chicago aka flint aka Atlantic city, aka stockton aka detroit aka obamacare aka....




vincentML -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 11:17:07 AM)

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A. We're not talking one or two bad apples; the entire public school system is delivering results inferior to charter schools at higher costs.

Comparing apples to oranges. Charter schools have a much lower teacher/student ratio. I often had more than 32 students in my chemistry labs. Show me a charter school with similar situations. Apples to apples - how do charter schools compare to parochial schools and to independent privates schools?

quote:

I may not have gotten to watch the sausage being made, but I am damn well familiar with the outcome, as I have done contracting work for MDCPS; worked at a school; have students in the schools; and am an informed tax payer.

But you never walked in my shoes teaching 150 or 160 students five days each week. You haven't a clue of the task in the classroom and the hours spent at home for preparation and evaluations. You have never taught immigrant children or impoverished children. You look at statistics of so called comparative success when the literature tells us to be suspicious of them. Teachers ought to be paid a hell of a lot more than they are now. If you want better results add more teachers and classrooms to reduce the student/teacher ratio. You say the system is a failure but you point the finger of blame only at the teachers' union. Account for the terrible waste in the administrative structure. There are many more TSAs at District level related to "improving" curriculum. Point the finger of blame at administrative waste. You worked in a school as a contractor (nothing to do with education) and talked with students. That makes you informed? Have you ever attended a school board meeting and expressed your informed citizen grievances? I thought not. Hear that bell ringing? No, it is not a school bell. It is the sound of my bullshit detector.




Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 12:00:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

A. We're not talking one or two bad apples; the entire public school system is delivering results inferior to charter schools at higher costs.

Comparing apples to oranges. Charter schools have a much lower teacher/student ratio. I often had more than 32 students in my chemistry labs. Show me a charter school with similar situations. Apples to apples - how do charter schools compare to parochial schools and to independent privates schools?


Bullshit. Public schools in dade county get more than $12700 per student. Charter schools get $8700.

Bottom line. Charter schools spend their money wiser, and get better results. Period.



quote:


quote:

I may not have gotten to watch the sausage being made, but I am damn well familiar with the outcome, as I have done contracting work for MDCPS; worked at a school; have students in the schools; and am an informed tax payer.

But you never walked in my shoes teaching 150 or 160 students five days each week. You haven't a clue of the task in the classroom and the hours spent at home for preparation and evaluations.


The school I worked at was for juvenile delinquents. The kids were in shackles. They committed murders, armed robberies. Don't tell me I haven't experienced impoverished youth.

As for 160 students. Big deal. Your official workday is like 7 hours. You work 9 months a year. You get more paid holidays than G-d. Your starting salary in dade county is $24.10 an hour, in a county where the median income is $15.10 an hour. And your benefits packages are in the top quartile whereas most dade county employees are not. Who gets a guaranteed pension in the private sector... no one.

You ever work a factory job 72 hours a week? Or 4 years where I averaged 116 hours a week? Ever go 8 years without a vacation? So spare me your self pitying bull-shit.
quote:

If you want better results add more teachers and classrooms to reduce the student/teacher ratio. You say the system is a failure but you point the finger of blame only at the teachers' union.


The cost to add public schools just in miami dade county.- is 800,000,000 dollars this year. One school (Norland) is slated at over 40,000,000. This is almost the total (55million) allocated for all charter schools in the entire state.

Charter school teachers cost half as much as union teachers. And are grateful for the job.



quote:

Have you ever attended a school board meeting and expressed your informed citizen grievances?
Many, many times. As well as nominated for the PTA president.

The anger out here in the real world is palpable. So I suggest you shut your pothole and be grateful - and instead of whining about being over worked, and underpaid you realize that you have a lot better circumstances and should be thankful.




vincentML -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 12:23:26 PM)

quote:

Perhaps you missed the part where I stated: "Negotiating higher wages, classroom sizes, medical co-pays, etc. isn't exactly asking government to correct a wrong." Asking government to correct a wrong, is the whole "petition government for the redress of grievances" part. If you're negotiating for higher wages, that means you had negotiated for those previous wages, making them NOT a wrong.
Negotiations occur at the expiration of a previous contract which is no longer in force. Old salaries no longer exist, hence a grievance exists.

quote:

If a teacher's union is negotiating with the Superintendent, etc. of TPS, that does not fall under the First Amendment because they are not petitioning government. And, public union (not just teacher unions) negotiations with government are not for "redress of grievances."
Similar to rights to freedom of expression, public school teachers enjoy rights to freedom of association, based on the First Amendment's provision that grants citizens the right to peaceful assembly. These rights generally permit public school teachers to join professional, labor, or similar organizations; run for public office; and similar forms of association. However, teachers may be required to ensure that participation in these activities is completely independent from their responsibilities to the school.

quote:

If Florida has passed state laws saying that teachers and other public employees have the right to negotiate for A, B, C, etc., then that's great. But, understand that's not a Constitutional right, and law can be passed negating it. Don't believe me? Ask Scott Walker.
Florida's Collective Bargaining Law takes account of financial emergencies. Public Employee Unions still exist in Wisconsin with curtailed powers.

You don't contest the effect of impoverished family environments on the development of cognitive abilities in very young children then?




vincentML -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 12:44:51 PM)

quote:

The anger out here in the real world is palpable. So I suggest you shut your pothole and be grateful - and instead of whining about being over worked, and underpaid you realize that you have a lot better circumstances and should be thankful.
The anger in the real world was misdirected early on after the Market crash by suck up politicians who should have called out the derivatives scams. Wall Street thieves should have gone to prison.

Plantation mentality. Yassah, boss, I is happy and grateful working in the fields. Shiiiit!

quote:

As for 160 students. Big deal. Your official workday is like 7 hours. You work 9 months a year. You get more paid holidays than G-d. Your starting salary in dade county is $24.10 an hour, in a county where the median income is $15.10 an hour. And your benefits packages are in the top quartile whereas most dade county employees are not. Who gets a guaranteed pension in the private sector... no one.
You conveniently ignore the hours of nights and weekends I had to work at home.

Pensions in the private sectors died from corporation mismanagement of funds and products, and were substituted by the 401K scam.

quote:

The school I worked at was for juvenile delinquents. The kids were in shackles. They committed murders, armed robberies. Don't tell me I haven't experienced impoverished youth.
And that qualifies you as an informed citizen on public education! [8|]




Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 7:00:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The anger out here in the real world is palpable. So I suggest you shut your pothole and be grateful - and instead of whining about being over worked, and underpaid you realize that you have a lot better circumstances and should be thankful.
The anger in the real world was misdirected early on after the Market crash by suck up politicians who should have called out the derivatives scams. Wall Street thieves should have gone to prison.



How patronizing of you - to assume I confuse bankers with union teachers. Hedge fund managers and teachers - only have one thing in common - I'll leave you to guess what that might be. But we do agree - a lot of bankers should be in jail. Instead, they're donating to Clinton....'nuff said?
quote:



Plantation mentality. Yassah, boss, I is happy and grateful working in the fields. Shiiiit!
and its this kind of attitude which is why our we ditched public school - and why charter schools continue to grow at 15% per year. And why inch by inch public school reforms are coming..
quote:



quote:

As for 160 students. Big deal. Your official workday is like 7 hours. You work 9 months a year. You get more paid holidays than G-d. Your starting salary in dade county is $24.10 an hour, in a county where the median income is $15.10 an hour. And your benefits packages are in the top quartile whereas most dade county employees are not. Who gets a guaranteed pension in the private sector... no one.
You conveniently ignore the hours of nights and weekends I had to work at home.
Oh boo-hoo. If you're salaried in virtually any private industry job in the country you're working way more hours than you. So boo hoo that you might actually work 40.

Here's a post article to educate you on the real state of workers:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2014/09/02/the-average-work-week-is-now-47-hours/

More than half of all salaried workers are working 50+ hours per week. So boo-hoo you and your teacher workdays....

quote:

Pensions in the private sectors died from corporation mismanagement of funds and products, and were substituted by the 401K scam.

Its taxpayers paying more than 4500 new york teachers pensions of 100K+ that are a scam. You didn't earn it. You don't deserve it. You benefitted from crony groups sucking at the government tit.

quote:

And that qualifies you as an informed citizen on public education! [8|]



No. Being informed qualifies me. Being uninformed (oh 2million casualties of hiroshima and nagasaki) qualifies you to be a teacher, apparently.




Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/22/2016 7:07:01 PM)

You want proof that government workers are overpaid?http://smallbusiness.chron.com/average-employee-retention-rate-18799.html

Government workers have the highest retention rate of all job classifications.

They have the lowest quit rates - .5%

In other words - unlike you- most workers realize they have a cush job. They never get a better offer - so they stay put.
Even in difficult times, like these, when workers tend to keep jobs at all costs - the quit rates in private industry are 3.5 times higher.




vincentML -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/23/2016 12:15:33 PM)

~FR~

THE CHARTER SCHOOL MOVEMENT IS A SCAM


Apologies to the OP for this thread divergence into the pros/cons of charter schools. The topic was originally offered by a critic of public schools, which is really unrelated to the topic in the OP. However, the critical poster evidently has an obsessive anger against teachers’ unions and public schools, which he apparently holds accountable for all the world’s ills. The credentials for his critical expertise? He worked in a factory, on a construction project, had conversations with criminal teens who were in shackles, was nominated (presumably not elected) to a PTA, attended school board meetings but offered no notable comments or challenges to the board (probably watched on TV) So, in rebuttal, I give you a litany of what’s wrong with charter schools. I do this with a privileged career of teaching maybe 5000 kids and touching many lives, hopefully for the better.

The following are excerpted from an investigative article in the Miami Herald in 2011 “Florida charter schools: big money, little oversight “

• Florida’s charter school movement has grown into $400-million-a-year powerhouse backed by real-estate developers and promoted by politicians, but with little oversight.

• they continue to operate with little public oversight. Even when charter schools have been caught violating state laws, school districts have few tools to demand compliance.

• Charter schools have become a parallel school system unto themselves, a system controlled largely by for-profit management companies and private landlords — one and the same, in many cases — and rife with insider deals and potential conflicts of interest.

• Some schools have ceded almost total control of their staff and finances to for-profit management companies that decide how the schools’ money is spent.

• The Life Skills Center of Miami-Dade County, for example, pays 97 percent of its income to a management company as a “continuing fee.” And when the governing board of two affiliated schools in Hollywood tried to eject its managers, the company refused to turn over school money it held — and threatened to press criminal charges against any school officials who attempted to access the money.

• Many management companies also control the land and buildings used by the schools — sometimes collecting more than 25 percent of a school’s revenue in lease payments, in addition to management fees.

• The owners of Academica, the state’s largest charter school operator, collect almost $19 million a year in lease payments on school properties they control in Miami-Dade and Broward counties, audit and property records show.

• Charter schools often rely on loans from management companies or other insiders to stay afloat, making charter school governing boards beholden to the managers they oversee. Loans to two Pompano Beach schools were disguised as gifts in financial documents to avoid scrutiny from the school district and make struggling schools appear solvent, the schools’ former managers said in court papers.

• At some financially weak schools, tight budgets have forced administrators to cut corners. The cash-strapped Balere Language Academy in South Miami Heights taught its seventh-grade students in a toolshed, records show.

• The Academy of Arts & Minds in Coconut Grove went weeks without textbooks.

• Schools have also been accused of using illegal tactics to bring in more money — charging students illegal fees for standard classes, or faking attendance records to earn more tax dollars, court records show.

• Charter schools in Miami-Dade take a disproportionately lower share of black, poor and disabled children, records show. One in three students in Miami-Dade traditional public schools are black, while one in five charter school students are black.

• School district officials also suspect some charter schools have deliberately sought out high-performing students — contrary to the schools’ contracts.

• This year, several South Florida charter schools made headlines for violating local rules or state laws, including Arts & Minds, which was accused of charging illegal fees to students,

• and Balere, which the school district said turned into an after-hours nightclub on weekends.

• In Miami-Dade and Broward, about two in three charter schools are run by management companies, which charge fees ranging from 5 to 18 percent of a school’s income. These fees can exceed $1 million a year at a large charter school.

• Statewide, about one in four charter schools have shut down since 1996, either voluntarily or at the command of local school districts — double the national average. Most schools close for financial rather than academic reasons. A Miami Herald review found 19 schools in Miami-Dade and Broward with rents exceeding 20 percent of their income in 2010 — about one in seven South Florida charter schools renting property that year. One Miami Gardens school spent 43 percent of its income on rent, according to audit reports.

• Many of the highest rents are charged by landlords with ties to the management companies running the schools, The Miami Herald found. At least 56 charter schools in Miami-Dade and Broward counties sit on land whose owners are tied to management companies, property records show.

• For example, the Lincoln-Martí Charter School in Hialeah paid $744,000 in rent last year — about 25 percent of the school’s $3 million budget, even after the landlord reduced the rent by $153,000. The previous year, the school spent one-third of its income on rent, audit records show.

• Records show the landlord, D.P. Real Estate Holdings, and the management company are run by the same man: former Miami-Dade School Board member Demetrio Perez Jr. Perez’s son, Demetrio J. Perez, works at the management company, which operates three Lincoln-Martí charter schools.

• The Lincoln-Martí charter schools were established by three friends of the elder Perez, who owns a string of well-known private schools and daycare centers also called Lincoln-Martí.


There are so many more apparently crooked deals and overly cozy relationships in this article, you won’t know whether to laugh or cry. I only gave you enough to taste the texture of the debacle. I don’t mean to say there are not some successful charter schools in the state but they are few and far between. Miami-Dade has answered the challenge of these few successful charter schools with the birth of specialized “magnet schools.”

The birth of the idea came from Al Shanker, the gutsy boss of the NYC Teachers Union back in the 60s or early 70s, who suggested groups of talented teachers should be allowed to set up their own schools and design their own curricula without the constraints of the Administrative bureaucracy. I think Al would cry, tough as he was, if he could see what happened to his idea.

The rest of these items come from articles in ERIC, Educational Research Index whatever. And address specific bullshit arguments made by proponents of charter schools in vain attempts to grab the public money.

Research Comparing Charter Schools and Traditional Public Schools. Information Capsule.

• Most studies have found that charter schools produce achievement gains that are about the same or lower than those found in traditional public schools, although a few studies have concluded that charter schools have a positive effect on student achievement. These inconsistent findings have led some researchers to conclude that the rapid growth of the charter school movement has significantly outpaced the evidence supporting its impact on student achievement. ….

• there may never be a single definitive study that determines if charter or traditional public schools provide students with better learning opportunities

• This Information Capsule also reviews research comparing the qualifications of teachers at charter schools and traditional public schools and student segregation in charter schools. Most studies have found that charter school teachers have less teaching experience than teachers at traditional public schools

• In addition, charter schools appear to intensify racial and economic segregation.

Charter Schools and Student Achievement in Florida

• by their fifth year of operation new charter schools reach a par with the average traditional public school in math and produce higher reading achievement scores than their traditional public school counterparts

• Among charters, those targeting at-risk and special education students demonstrate lower student achievement,

• Controlling for preexisting traditional public school quality, competition from charter schools is associated with modest increases in math scores and unchanged reading scores in nearby traditional public schools.

Do Charters Retain Teachers Differently? Evidence from Elementary Schools in Florida

• Among all teachers, those in charter schools appear more likely to exit the profession than those in the traditional public sector, and in both sectors the least effective teachers are more likely to exit than their more effective counterparts. [snip]

• We interpret these results as indicating that whatever administrative or organizational differences may exist in charter schools, they do not necessarily translate into a discernible difference in the ability to dismiss poorly performing teachers.

Critical Race Theory and the Proliferation of U.S. Charter Schools

• the majority of students in charter schools do not significantly outscore their traditional school peers on measurable indicators of academic performance.

• Additionally, students in charter schools do not have comparable schooling experiences to their middle-class, White peers in affluent urban and suburban schools.

• Using critical race theory to analyze recent charter school research, we challenge the notion of marketplace theory as a viable reform strategy to create more equitable education,

• and we suggest that the substantial financial profits associated with charter schools are one reason policymakers continue to ignore the negative outcomes of charter schools and push for the creation of more charter schools.

Teacher Satisfaction and Turnover in Charter Schools

• Charter schools see as many as one in four teachers leave annually, and recent evidence attributes much of this turnover to provisions affected by collective bargaining processes and state laws such as salary, benefits, job security, and working hours

Charter Schools' Discipline Policies Face Scrutiny

• But in a few urban districts where high discipline rates at charter schools have drawn scrutiny, school officials have recently taken steps aimed at ensuring that students in both charter and other public schools are treated fairly.

• Some experts on charters, though, say increased accountability on disciplinary issues in the sector is overdue.

Choice without Equity: Charter School Segregation

• Our findings suggest that charters currently isolate students by race and class. This analysis of recent data finds that charter schools are more racially isolated than traditional public schools in virtually every state and large metropolitan area in the nation. In some regions, white students are overrepresented in charter schools while in other charter schools; minority students have little exposure to white students.

• Data about the extent to which charter schools serve low-income and English Language Learners is incomplete, but suggest that a substantial share of charter schools may not enroll such students.

• As charters represent an increasing share of our public schools, they influence the level of segregation experienced by all of our nation's school-
aged children. After two decades, the promise of charter schools to use choice to foster integration and equality in American education has yet to be realized. (Contains 50 footnotes, 46 tables and 9 figures.)

Charter Schools, Equity, and Student Enrollments: The Role of For-Profit Educational Management Organizations

• Research suggests that charter schools operated by for-profit entities may take a more entrepreneurial approach when expanding their operations and thus may be more inclined to serve less disadvantaged and less costly students

• They seem to seek out more Black students but are also focused on selecting fewer poor students than we see among regular public schools. When examining differences in the size of EMOs, we find that these effects appear most likely to occur among schools operated by large-sized EMOs.

The Qualifications and Classroom Performance of Teachers Moving to Charter Schools

• I find that less qualified and less effective teachers move to charter schools, particularly if they move to urban schools, low-performing schools, or schools with higher shares of nonwhite students. It is unclear whether these findings reflect lower demand for teachers' credentials and value added or resource constraints unique to charter schools, but the inability to recruit teachers who are at least as effective as those in traditional public schools will likely hinder charter student achievement.



Finally, just to reply to a few of my counterpart’s dumbass questioning of my own experience: Yes, I worked in a factory, the Hyatt Bearing Division of GM; Yes, I worked in constructing as a laborer building new houses in the Florida summer to earn some extra cash for my family; yes, I served two years in the army; Yes, some years I was a union member and some years I free loaded, depending on my mood; yes, I went to university and earned the equivalent of a PhD without dissertation because I was a single parent; yes, I am living off the pension money that so generously allows me to summer at Trump Tower Uganda every year; yes, the pension system administrators are pissed because I am still alive and collecting after all these years;

but mostly I am proud and satisfied I was able to touch the lives of more than 5000 kids, better than constructing or manufacturing some shit that people have to be persuaded to buy.

I will be happy to read your weak-ass reply to the picture I presented of a corrupt and ineffectual charter school movement.

For profit hospitals, for profit jails, for profit schools.

What a con job. For profit, private sector waste is just as rampant as public institutional waste.

School choice? snark! [8|]










Phydeaux -> RE: Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association (1/23/2016 2:50:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

~FR~

THE CHARTER SCHOOL MOVEMENT IS A SCAM


blah blah blah.. can't answer the facts engage in character assassination

quote:


• Florida’s charter school movement has grown into $400-million-a-year powerhouse backed by real-estate developers and promoted by politicians, but with little oversight.


And the public school powerhouse is 3 billion a year - just in Miami Dade County.

And by little oversight - you mean - no political control by democrats.
Yep. Thats the whole point.

On the other hand the oversight that matters - is the parents of the students.

Those students parents spend a lot more time with their students - than public school parents - and they rate the schools higher.

quote:


• they continue to operate with little public oversight. Even when charter schools have been caught violating state laws, school districts have few tools to demand compliance.
News flash. Charter schools aren't part of the school district. Why in hell should school districts have ANY say to demand ANYTHING.
quote:


• Charter schools have become a parallel school system unto themselves, rife with insider deals and potential conflicts of interest.
unlike say.. public schools.
quote:


• Some schools have ceded almost total control of their staff and finances to for-profit management companies that decide how the schools’ money is spent.
and?
quote:


• The Life Skills Center of Miami-Dade County
• Many management companies also control the land and buildings used by the schools
• The owners of Academica,
• Charter schools often rely on loans


So what. News flash. We the parents can fix a problem at a charter school. Whereas public shools just continue failing.

You want to compare problems - how about we compare academica with chicago public schools shall we - the poster child for poor results, racial segregation, and political mismanagement. And oh yeah, they closed down 50 schools and owe a billion into the union's slush fund.

quote:



• At some financially weak schools, tight budgets have forced administrators to cut corners. The cash-strapped Balere Language Academy in South Miami Heights taught its seventh-grade students in a toolshed, records show.


Now the first criticism that would concern me - slightly. I don't care if its a pod (like at public schools) a tool shed, or the taj mahal. So long as it was conducive to learning.
quote:



• The Academy of Arts & Minds in Coconut Grove went weeks without textbooks.


As opposed to public schools - where that happened every year for 3 years for my kids , and the other years where there was 1 book for 2 students...


quote:


• Schools have also been accused of using illegal tactics to bring in more money — charging students illegal fees for standard classes, or faking attendance records to earn more tax dollars, court records show.

Accusations are not convictions.
Yet, even if they were convictions - there are no allegations this is a widespread occurence in florida.


quote:


• Charter schools in Miami-Dade take a disproportionately lower share of black, poor and disabled children, records show.


Oh please - this is false and misleading. The Miami Herald used a methodology that inferred they had lower black students - while ignoring that they had higher hispanic students.

And ignoring that same methodology did not hold true in broward, and that minorities are disproportionately represented in fl. charter schools.

Additionally, charter schools are usually built in areas where there is land to build - ie., out in the suburbs. Charter schools use a lottery system for acceptance - just like public magnet schools.

quote:


• School district officials also suspect

Yep disparagement and innuendo. but no facts.
quote:



• This year, several South Florida charter schools made headlines for violating local rules or state laws, including Arts & Minds, which was accused of charging illegal fees to students,


Yeah the same kinds of fees that get charged in public schools.
Notice it was the school district complaining not the teacher.

And what have public schools made headlines for - oh yeah sending a kid home because he had a star wars shirt on.

sending a kid home that had a shirt that said I believe in Jesus Christ

having a coach pray at the 50 yard line.

Throw in a variety of school shootings.. yeah I'm completely ok the miami herald running whatever hack headlines they want.
quote:




• and Balere, which the school district said turned into an after-hours nightclub on weekends.


And? Notice its not the parents complaining but the district?
quote:




• In Miami-Dade and Broward, about two in three charter schools are run by management companies, which charge fees ranging from 5 to 18 percent of a school’s income. These fees can exceed $1 million a year at a large charter school.


And? Frankly I salute Carvalho. He cut 2 billion dollars out of MDCPS budget without firing a teacher.

So you're complaining about charter schools paying overhead of a million a year, when miami dade was spending in excess of $2billion a year.

billion >>> million
quote:




• Statewide, about one in four charter schools have shut down since 1996, either voluntarily or at the command of local school districts — double the national average. Most schools close for financial rather than academic reasons. A Miami Herald review found 19 schools in Miami-Dade and Broward with rents exceeding 20 percent of their income in 2010 — about one in seven South Florida charter schools renting property that year. One Miami Gardens school spent 43 percent of its income on rent, according to audit reports.


Some charter schools shut for money. Some public schools shut for poor grades not enough students. Big deal.
quote:




• Many of the highest rents
• For example, the Lincoln-Martí Charter School
• Records show the landlord, D.P. Real Estate Holdings,
• The Lincoln-Martí charter schools were established by three friends of the elder Perez, who owns a string of well-known private schools and daycare centers also called Lincoln-Martí.


And?

Your predjudices are showing. I don't have a problem with profit, and in fact think its a great idea - so long as the public goal, which is kids getting a better education.
quote:


• Most studies have found that charter schools produce achievement gains that are about the same or lower than those found in traditional public schools, although a few studies have concluded that charter schools have a positive effect on student achievement. These inconsistent findings have led some researchers to conclude that the rapid growth of the charter school movement has significantly outpaced the evidence supporting its impact on student achievement. ….



Florida charter schools have consistently gotten better test scores than public schools
quote:




• there may never be a single definitive study that determines if charter or traditional public schools provide students with better learning opportunities


So?


quote:


• This Information Capsule also reviews research comparing the qualifications of teachers at charter schools and traditional public schools and student segregation in charter schools. Most studies have found that charter school teachers have less teaching experience than teachers at traditional public schools


So?

We've already established public schools dismiss by seniority not by ability to teach.

I'd much rather have a teacher that can teach than an old teacher that can't. Wouldn't you?
quote:




• In addition, charter schools appear to intensify racial and economic segregation.


Bulshit.
quote:


Charter Schools and Student Achievement in Florida

• charter schools reach a par with the average traditional public school in math and produce higher reading achievement scores
• Among charters, those targeting at-risk and special education students demonstrate lower student achievement,
• Controlling for preexisting traditional public school quality, competition from charter schools is associated with modest increases in math scores and unchanged reading scores in nearby traditional public schools.


And this is bad why?
quote:




Do Charters Retain Teachers Differently? Evidence from Elementary Schools in Florida

• Among all teachers, those in charter schools appear more likely to exit the profession than those in the traditional public sector, and in both sectors the least effective teachers are more likely to exit than their more effective counterparts. [snip]

• We interpret these results as indicating that whatever administrative or organizational differences may exist in charter schools, they do not necessarily translate into a discernible difference in the ability to dismiss poorly performing teachers.


hogwash. the interpretation is utter hogwash. If someone not the poster needs an explanation as to why,I'll be happy to provide it.
quote:






Critical Race Theory and the Proliferation of U.S. Charter Schools

• the majority of students in charter schools do not significantly outscore their traditional school peers on measurable indicators of academic performance.


Except that they are way more likely to graduate and 20% more likely to go to college.. ..
quote:





• Additionally, students in charter schools do not have comparable schooling experiences


You're missing the point. We want them not to have comparable schooling experiences thats the whole point of getting them out of failing public schools...
quote:



• Using critical race theory to analyze recent charter school research, we challenge the notion of marketplace theory as a viable reform strategy to create more equitable education,


When "critical race theory" yields results where 37% of students are reading at grade level.. who cares about critical race theory...

quote:


• Research suggests that charter schools operated by for-profit entities may take a more entrepreneurial approach when expanding their operations and thus may be more inclined to serve less disadvantaged and less costly students

Already disproven time and time and time again.
quote:



I will be happy to read your weak-ass reply to the picture I presented of a corrupt and ineffectual charter school movement.


News flash -
None of your links disputed the facts that florida charter schools gave better performance at every grade level. You tried to use mixed studies from other states - but even those say that charter schools perform at the same level as public schoools.

You used papers from other states to suggest that cherry picking occurs.
I gave you real results from florida that stated that students were disproportionately minority.

None of your posts disputed that charter schoools are cheaper.

None of your posts dispute that parents are THREE TIMES happier with charter schools.

None of your posts dispute that charter schools give parents greater options to choose the school most appropriate for their children.

quote:


For profit hospitals, for profit jails, for profit schools.

We're talking about florida schools. Don't try to inflame passion by conflating other topics.
quote:



What a con job. For profit, private sector waste is just as rampant as public institutional waste.


And yet despite ample opportunity, you've provided not a single link to support that allegation.

Public schools - inferiour results, inflated costs, ridiculous bureaucracy.
Bye bye!

Bottom line; Government has the power to compel. Any time a private industry has the ability to deliver a good or service at the same cost or less, while maintaining public policy goals, it should be done privately.

Because private industry is a lot easier to fix than the government.




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