RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia?

RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (Full Version)

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CodeOfSilence -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/27/2016 6:59:53 PM)
An intelligent commentator replying to article about above mentioned event: "This is not the first time that scientists have made a drug that works on the body's natural cannabinoid receptors by using synthetic drugs that block those receptors. (Endocannabinoid System.) In the 1990s, there was a drug called "Accomplia" (remonabant) that blocked the CB1 receptors (endocannabinoid receptor type 1) that control appetite. It was supposed to result in weight loss. It worked to reduce weight really well, but the participants who used it became dangerously suicidal. The drug companies are not interested in using natural (plant grown) chemicals in cannabis, so they've tried to synthesize them. (So they can patent them and make boatloads of money.) The trouble is, we've only just discovered that the endocannabinoid system is just as important as the central nervous system in keeping us alive, but we don't know exactly how it works yet. When the drug companies attempt to mess with the receptors in that system, disaster strikes. I'm not surprised this happened." There's a good reason not to allow or to limit and regulate capitalism in the Healthcare research and development sector. Not either one of the testing methods when absolutely necessary.

Dvr22999874 -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/27/2016 7:15:54 PM)
I believe Thalidomide may have been trialled on mice first but was then trialled on humans. The trials on the mice weren't exhaustive enough or long enough

Lucylastic -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/27/2016 7:15:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874 I think there are five good reasons in France at the moment..................they were being used as a trial for some new drug. One is dead already and it looks like the rest might go the same way soon Yeah I was just looking for that, but found scads more, im feeling quite ill.

Dvr22999874 -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/27/2016 7:22:38 PM)
yeah, pretty bad huh Lucy ? I think I could accept that it may just be better to try new drugs on animals first. And don't get me wrong, I am an animal lover and in some instances would prefer to hurt a human than an animal but in this case, the humans take precedence

Wayward5oul -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/27/2016 7:44:16 PM)
I read the article linked in the OP. There may be other info elsewhere that sheds more light, but going by just this one, I see a lot of 'iffy' reporting. Hundreds of monkeys have been sent to Australia for what seem to be dubious medical experiments that raise “serious ethical questions,” the local environmental authorities have warned, as reported by the Sydney Morning Herald. "Local environmentalists"? Seem to be dubious? More than 370 primates have been part of the research over the past 15 years, and the scientists who conduct the tests are most probably “entirely lacking” in expertise essential to care for such animals, Australia’s Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) has said. Their counterpart to PETA (this is my characterization, not the report's) say that the scientists are 'most probably entirely lacking' in their abilities to carry this out. What is that based on? Experiments they describe as 'reportedly' involving cruel experiments. A Humane Studies Research Ciouncil characterizes the experiments as Frankensteir-like, but I see nothing that confirms anything they are saying, or reason to be characterized as such. Just a lot of inflammatory descriptions of procedures that as of yet are uncomfirmed, or at least seem to be entirely one-sided. I would be interested in seeing other reports on this, with tangible evidence of what or what is not going on.

Phydeaux -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/27/2016 11:28:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux PS: if you want to suggest that prison inmates could be free to volunteer as medicine test subjects to reduce their prison sentences -I'm ok with that. There are many reasons that prison inmates do not make good test subjects. Interesting, unsupported opinion. Got any cites?

Phydeaux -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/27/2016 11:33:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence We are at the point of making it while we are certainly beyond the point of sticking pig kidneys into monkeys to "see what happens" like some fucking kid breaking your grandmothers gardengnomes to see what's inside of them. Also I'm sure someone, probably a crazy Russian with a daddy or uncle in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union poked inside some primate and tried to put in an organ there from a second animal. These people in Australia just kept doing it. All "research" could potentially "save" your child. We could inject every known substance into every known animal and hope for a reaction that would be able to lead us somewhere. This research is on par with the 18th century levels of scientific inquiry and its a true shame that you would allow the honor of humanity to be continuously defiled like this. Please feel free to not avail yourself of all the advances in medicine made via animal testing, since they so offend your sense of morality. Of course, I expect your lifespan would be rather shortened. No malaria vaccines for you. No small pox No anthrax vaccine No rabies vaccine, or typhoid, or cholera or black plague, or beri beri, or polio, or rickets or measles or hepatitis or diptheria or whopping cough No vitamin C, no anaesthetics, no blood transfusions. No corneal, or kidney or hip replacements no heart transplants. No pace makers No antipsychotic medication, no high blood pressure meds, no antidepressents no anti -aids medicines. no life support for preim no chemotherapy for leukaemia no mri's, no ct scans no asthma medicine. no insuln Do you not get that stem cells were originall tested on mice, rats and rabbits? Do you not get that almost every medical device, medicine or procedure is tested on animals for safety and efficacy before it is tested on humans? So feel free to use 10th century medicine on yourself. PS: if you want to suggest that prison inmates could be free to volunteer as medicine test subjects to reduce their prison sentences -I'm ok with that. Who fucked you stupid today? I didn't object to Animal Testing, I objected to this Frankenstein shit being done in Australia in this day and age. What you're discussing is some topic in your head that you haven't yet posted. No, actually you didn't. Your exact words were: quote: Aren't we past this?? You referenced Kidney transplants and drug overdose testing. Since safety testing (aka overdose) occurs in all drug tests, AND you're talking drugs AND transplants How in the fuck are we supposed to imagine what the fuck you mean?

CodeOfSilence -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/28/2016 1:50:46 AM)
Because this couldn't possibly be referring to this practice that the topic concerns in this particular facility at the present time, not animal testing done 100 years ago when the body of the beast was the only real laboratory setting available. Well now you know, so make your own thread. ____________ Further more RSPCA is not Peta. So who ever said that, get your facts straight. It is the original global organization formed in the early 1800s (its Australian part apparently in the 1980's) and it does not fuck around. The term "Royal" is not something anyone is allowed to put in-front of their name in the Commonwealth.

Aylee -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/28/2016 5:45:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PandoraFoxxx Name 5 viable reasons why moderately healthy, living humans do not make good medical test subjects. I said prisoners.

Aylee -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/28/2016 6:03:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux PS: if you want to suggest that prison inmates could be free to volunteer as medicine test subjects to reduce their prison sentences -I'm ok with that. There are many reasons that prison inmates do not make good test subjects. Interesting, unsupported opinion. Got any cites? I could probably find some, but it comes down to ethics, cost, health history, and drug abuse. Ethically it is coercive. Yeah, yeah, they are volunteers. Umm. . . not really. Not in the situation they are in. Prisoners are also classed as a vulnerable population. The government is supposed to be protecting them from harm, since they are in a situation where they cannot protect themselves. (This is also why I get so cranky when I see comments about people hoping some man is going to get raped in prison.) Many prisoners are also of diminished capacity. It is cost prohibitive. There are additional forms and approvals to get to do research on prisoners. Transportation costs - this gets expensive as prisoners are more expensive to transport than the rest of the population. Health history - many prisoners are on medications and one type of these are anti-psychotics. Medications can interfere with whatever is being studied. And frankly I am not completely convinced that there are not drug studies being done on these different types of meds anyway. Prisoners also tend to come from a poor background and are likely to not be as healthy as the regular population. Drug use - The prisons are filled with people there are drug related charges. Drugs alter brain chemistry, damage organs, screw up your reasoning, yadda yadda. This can effect the research being done. There are some reasons for you. Let's face it, prisoners are people, and while they must be protected from harm they should also have the right to participate in medical research. I know that women have had to fight for that right and currently non-whites are having to fight a similar fight. The prison population does have a lot of non-whites. So, using it could be very beneficial to the total population. While the 60Kg white man MAY be the standard, drugs and such act differently for those that are not part of that population.

Lucylastic -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/28/2016 6:23:26 AM)
excellent post Aylee

Phydeaux -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/28/2016 6:37:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux PS: if you want to suggest that prison inmates could be free to volunteer as medicine test subjects to reduce their prison sentences -I'm ok with that. There are many reasons that prison inmates do not make good test subjects. Interesting, unsupported opinion. Got any cites? I could probably find some, but it comes down to ethics, cost, health history, and drug abuse. Ethically it is coercive. Yeah, yeah, they are volunteers. Umm. . . not really. Not in the situation they are in. Prisoners are also classed as a vulnerable population. The government is supposed to be protecting them from harm, since they are in a situation where they cannot protect themselves. (This is also why I get so cranky when I see comments about people hoping some man is going to get raped in prison.) Many prisoners are also of diminished capacity. It is cost prohibitive. There are additional forms and approvals to get to do research on prisoners. Transportation costs - this gets expensive as prisoners are more expensive to transport than the rest of the population. Health history - many prisoners are on medications and one type of these are anti-psychotics. Medications can interfere with whatever is being studied. And frankly I am not completely convinced that there are not drug studies being done on these different types of meds anyway. Prisoners also tend to come from a poor background and are likely to not be as healthy as the regular population. Drug use - The prisons are filled with people there are drug related charges. Drugs alter brain chemistry, damage organs, screw up your reasoning, yadda yadda. This can effect the research being done. There are some reasons for you. Let's face it, prisoners are people, and while they must be protected from harm they should also have the right to participate in medical research. I know that women have had to fight for that right and currently non-whites are having to fight a similar fight. The prison population does have a lot of non-whites. So, using it could be very beneficial to the total population. While the 60Kg white man MAY be the standard, drugs and such act differently for those that are not part of that population. Yeah, none of that supports your contention that they are not good test subjects. Sure some prisoners are in on drug charges. Most are not. Even if they were, drug history is better known than the population at large. Prisons have medical facilities - most of the time the programs go to the prisons, so transporting prisoners isn't an issue. Your point that women and minorities should be able to participate in research counters your other points, not supports it. Ethically coercive - meh scrutinize it.

Aylee -> RE: Mengele reborn and well in Australia? (1/28/2016 7:00:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux PS: if you want to suggest that prison inmates could be free to volunteer as medicine test subjects to reduce their prison sentences -I'm ok with that. There are many reasons that prison inmates do not make good test subjects. Interesting, unsupported opinion. Got any cites? I could probably find some, but it comes down to ethics, cost, health history, and drug abuse. Ethically it is coercive. Yeah, yeah, they are volunteers. Umm. . . not really. Not in the situation they are in. Prisoners are also classed as a vulnerable population. The government is supposed to be protecting them from harm, since they are in a situation where they cannot protect themselves. (This is also why I get so cranky when I see comments about people hoping some man is going to get raped in prison.) Many prisoners are also of diminished capacity. It is cost prohibitive. There are additional forms and approvals to get to do research on prisoners. Transportation costs - this gets expensive as prisoners are more expensive to transport than the rest of the population. Health history - many prisoners are on medications and one type of these are anti-psychotics. Medications can interfere with whatever is being studied. And frankly I am not completely convinced that there are not drug studies being done on these different types of meds anyway. Prisoners also tend to come from a poor background and are likely to not be as healthy as the regular population. Drug use - The prisons are filled with people there are drug related charges. Drugs alter brain chemistry, damage organs, screw up your reasoning, yadda yadda. This can effect the research being done. There are some reasons for you. Let's face it, prisoners are people, and while they must be protected from harm they should also have the right to participate in medical research. I know that women have had to fight for that right and currently non-whites are having to fight a similar fight. The prison population does have a lot of non-whites. So, using it could be very beneficial to the total population. While the 60Kg white man MAY be the standard, drugs and such act differently for those that are not part of that population. Yeah, none of that supports your contention that they are not good test subjects. Sure some prisoners are in on drug charges. Most are not. Even if they were, drug history is better known than the population at large. Prisons have medical facilities - most of the time the programs go to the prisons, so transporting prisoners isn't an issue. Your point that women and minorities should be able to participate in research counters your other points, not supports it. Ethically coercive - meh scrutinize it. Prisons do not have the medical facilities you think that they do. There are prison complexes that are a medical facility, but most county and state prisoners get transported for medical needs. Just speaking from the radiology stand point, it is much cheaper to contract and transport than it is to purchase and maintain medical imaging equipment. Even just an R/F system. There is also the issue of what types of medical devices are allowed in the prison. Many of them can be used as weapons. This is an issue. The drug history itself makes them poor medical research subjects, is my point, because of the changes they make in the body. It means that you cannot extrapolate to the population at large. It's coercive - I think we have different ethical "feels" on that part. So, we are not going to agree. My point about the women and minorities countering things - I flat out typed that prisoners should have the right to participate in medical research. Over all - my issue is that the incarcerated population is not the treasure trove for medical research that many seem to imagine it is. And I gave some reasons for that. If we don't agree, we don't agree. I am fine with that.

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